Glenn's Underground Cabin Update

[glenn kangiser]

You want to do your building in a manner that you will not need to use preservatives on the logs - no treatments, as any treatments will find their way into your bloodstream.  Borates are about the limit of safe treatments.

If high water table is a problem then it can be done in a mound that you can make yourself.

Do you own the trees behind that location?  I would get back out of sight if I could as nosy people do not always approve of things other people do.

Codes - agencies to worry about? Do you care?

[Sassy]

Last place I saw it I think, Ben.  hmm

That works pretty good most of the time but if someone gets tired of waiting for me to clean up and helps..... then all bets are off.

I do have the problem sometimes that I remember where I put it three years ago but forget that I moved it two years ago.... [ouch]

I would like to get it set up so that certain areas will contain certain types of things and I would know to look there and to take those things there when I find them in places they should not be.  [idea]

I did that with the digging tools by the garden and it is working pretty well.  Sometimes we find something.

...but that would be a lot like organizing and I am not sure if I am ready for that...

I've been trying to clean up the shop    Cleaned up all the trash & boxes & was starting to consolidate stuff & Glenn said  "you can't do that, I'll never find anything, I probably have that stuff all together for a reason."   [frus]So there you go - I've cleaned up the shop a few times, but now there are so many big pieces of equipment, I can't do much.      The last time I swept everything, Glenn drove his muddy Bobcat in there & left big chunks of mud all over - I think that was last year, so now its  dried mud    

BTW,    tedryder!

[glenn kangiser]

Some water info...

http://nc.water.usgs.gov/about/faq_ground.html

[ben2go]

Thanks a ton for the help guys.  It would probably be best if I bought the logs because I am not confident I can trim them, treat them etc.  I do have Oehler's book and DVDs.  I have not finished them though.   If you go to maps.google.com and type in 36.418762,-78.196971 this is almost the exact location I want to build.  I'm trying to find out if the water table is too high but I'm not having any luck.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I am not a carpenter, nor am I skilled in any of this whatsoever.  I use to work in the IT field so I pretty much only know my way around a keyboard and I'm forgetting that quickly.

Oh cool!You're about 5 hours above me,just north of Henderson.

[tedryder]

You guys are really active here.  That is wonderful. 

I like the idea of the mound if the water table is too high.  I know when foundations are built they are supposed to be built below the frost line.  Do you guys think a mound might freeze in the winter and make the house colder? 

I can avoid the nosy neighbors.  I don't care about code.  I'd like to eventually get a solar array, battery bank and inverter together once I know what I'm doing and go completely off the grid.

I am concerned that the trees in the area have too many bends to make straight poles for the roof.  Where can I go to get poles like that I wonder?

I noticed at this link, http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1164.0, lodestar's new construction didn't have poles over the roof, but something like 2x8s or larger.  Also, the poles looked very uniform, perhaps something he purchased?  This looks like something I may be able to do.  His roof didn't look to have much of a pitch created from the poles and 2x8s but rather perhaps from the dirt placed between the bottom and top layers of epdm?

This is all coming from a guy that has never cut down a tree with a chainsaw or hardly picked up a hammer so excuse my naivete.

[glenn kangiser]

We try to keep interesting things going so that when someone comes along with a question we are ready to jump on it...

If you check the tables in Mike Oehler's book you will find that he gives alternate sizes for rectangular materials - such as a sawmill would make.  You might find salvaged timbers somewhere but just be sure they are not treated.  With reduced loading the materials could be lighter though you would not have the benefit of Oehler's engineered sizes for your project.

Lodestar used organic materials and kept his loading lighter but probably deeper than soil would be.  I would still like a couple of inches of soil under the organic materials - brush, compost etc. to act as a buffer for fire safety.  If the materials used are thick enough over the mound they could still be deeper than the frost would go.  Organics would be better insulating than wet soil.  Straw bales could be used over it even though if used on the outside they would break down in a year.  Under a membrane they would be about R50 insulation, though critters might like to wander through them a bit.

A layer of foam could be used as insulation also so that only the warmer deeper earth is contributing to warming the house.

In John Hait's PAHS system he made a much larger umbrella over the house area to keep more of the soil warm and dry as well as store some of  the summer heat for moderating winter temperatures.  Bruce (Lodestar) used some of Hait's methods also.

How big are you planning on building for starters?

[tedryder]

It would be nice to have about 1500 or so square feet.   I'd like to have something paid for that was reasonably nice for my wife, daughter and myself.  I am certainly not a rich guy.

[glenn kangiser]

You could start smaller then add on also.  I have a friend who is building one right now.  Listed in this topic as J, seems his is around 900 sf with lofts and a root cellar.


Posted earlier recently but here is the inside of it.

[ben2go]

You guys are really active here.  That is wonderful. 

I like the idea of the mound if the water table is too high.  I know when foundations are built they are supposed to be built below the frost line.  Do you guys think a mound might freeze in the winter and make the house colder? 

I can avoid the nosy neighbors.  I don't care about code.  I'd like to eventually get a solar array, battery bank and inverter together once I know what I'm doing and go completely off the grid.

I am concerned that the trees in the area have too many bends to make straight poles for the roof.  Where can I go to get poles like that I wonder?

I noticed at this link, http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1164.0, lodestar's new construction didn't have poles over the roof, but something like 2x8s or larger.  Also, the poles looked very uniform, perhaps something he purchased?  This looks like something I may be able to do.  His roof didn't look to have much of a pitch created from the poles and 2x8s but rather perhaps from the dirt placed between the bottom and top layers of epdm?

This is all coming from a guy that has never cut down a tree with a chainsaw or hardly picked up a hammer so excuse my naivete.

The area you are considering to build on has a 4 to 6 inch frost line.To be honest,I have never seen it get lower than 2 or 3 inches.Pretty much surface frost in areas where there was bare ground.With a 16 to 18 inch soil depth over the structure,I think you'll be in good shape frost wise.On the water table,I really don't think the water table would be that high there.The easiest way to know for sure is to dig a couple 15 to 20 foot holes during a dry week, let them sit open,and check them everyday for water accumulation.Stake the holes off so no one trespassing falls in.If they do,you're covered.French drains would help with water issues if it's seepage from the surrounding area.

For lumber.That area is ripe with mobile saw mills.Have a few of them come out and look over your wood lot.Let them know what you are looking for in lumber.Some may even fell the trees and skid them out to the saw mill for you.Since you will need larger cut poles,it will be cheaper to have a sawyer come to you, than to have the poles trucked in.While the sawyer is there,you can have all your 2x lumber cut and stacked.Lending a hand will help cut costs.I would also spec that the lumber be cut to true size instead of building standards.That way a 2x4 is actually 2 inches by 4 inches instead of builder size of 1.5 by 3.75 or 3.5 in my areas case.You will need a place for the wood to dry.Some type of covered shed should work ok closed in on three sides.I don't think I would tarp the wood as the tarps tend to trap moister under them.That could cause mold issues.The wood can be treated with boric acid.It's cheap and plentiful at most hardware stores.My last batch came from Bilo I think.Not very costly either.There is plenty of advice on the interweb thingy that can explain the application process better than I.

[tedryder]

Thanks a lot guys.  You guys have given me a lot to chew on.  I'm going to hit Mike's book a bit more and come back with some more questions.  I wonder how much the sawyer would cost.  I didn't even know such a thing existed.

Hey what is J using to put the poles in the ground?  I know Glenn did not use the charred end with trash bags like Mike did.  This picture looks different also.

Anyone have any thoughts on the earthen carpet Mike recommends?

[ben2go]

Thanks a lot guys.  You guys have given me a lot to chew on.  I'm going to hit Mike's book a bit more and come back with some more questions.  I wonder how much the sawyer would cost.  I didn't even know such a thing existed.

Hey what is J using to put the poles in the ground?  I know Glenn did not use the charred end with trash bags like Mike did.  This picture looks different also.

Anyone have any thoughts on the earthen carpet Mike recommends?

You're welcome.I try to spread around knowledge instead of raping my fellow human's wallets and purses. 

A mobile sawyer usual charges a call out fee and then negotiates a price per board foot of lumber cut.If the wood order is large enough then the call out fee is dropped and sometimes a slightly lower price per board foot is negotiated.If you can think of any little reason you may need wood, or extra wood cut,add it in for the sawyer.When you get a fairly accurate count on the lumber totals and sizes,add 10% at minimum to the wood order.This will cover any mistakes made during construction  and wood that may split or warp during the drying process.Also google "lumber stacking for drying" or "drying lumber".You can also substitute wood for lumber in the search term.


I think J is pinning his poles on top of a concrete pier like Glenn has done in the underground command center.Not 100% on that.

I haven't personally seen Mike's earthen carpet in use, but it certainly looks interesting.

[glenn kangiser]

Ben is correct on the poles.  J dug post holes - filled them with concrete with a 3/4 rebar sticking out of the center of them about 10 inches stopping about an inch below finished floor.  Later he put a piece of plastic and another inch or two of firm concrete then set the post on top of it cleaning the extra concrete away from the post base.  The plastic stops soil moisture from moving up into the post.  The concrete makes the footing conform to the base of the post cut.  The post has a bit larger hole drilled in it to slip over the rebar pin with no problem.  Brace the post temporarily until the concrete hardens. 

You will also need to brace the posts during the backfill operations as they will hinge at the base.

I found that the charring and bagging was not effective here as moisture got into the bags either from my using wet logs or from bag damage.  This (bag) created a terrarium effect keeping the underground part of the post constantly wet and the termites loved it - the post rotted off within 3 years.  Mike had suggested the pinning as an alternate method to burying the posts.  My ground is a claystone and that is the other reason I chose to pin above the ground.   It is good that I did as the only three posts I had a problem with were the three I buried.

My wife doesn't care for carpets so we did not do much earth carpet floor, but we have an unfinished area where we have carpet over plastic over dirt.  It is nice to walk on and as Mike says, if you like carpet it is a good floor.

Also, I always recommend French Drains.  Easy to do if you put them in first.  Hard to do later.  Gophers rerouted drainage around here so I had to put some drains in and at this time I use sump pumps in a couple places.  J put drains in and they worked fine.  He drains to daylight downhill and does not need pumps.

[tedryder]

Let me ask you guys this question.  Do you cut your own material from the surrounding trees?  If so, you just get a chainsaw and go at it?  How do you take the bark off?  Is it a manual tool or something else?

[tedryder]

Using the concrete rebar method, he put plastic over the rebar (cut a small hole out ), then filled in the rest of the hole with concrete? 

[glenn kangiser]

Let me ask you guys this question.  Do you cut your own material from the surrounding trees?  If so, you just get a chainsaw and go at it?  How do you take the bark off?  Is it a manual tool or something else?

Most of my trees came from other places - rejects from small sawmills - some given to me but I gave him a bit of cash for them anyway.  The more of a hurry you get in the more things cost.  I harvested a few from my place but did not have that many usable.  I now have more contacts and can get trees easier than I could then.  Depends on your resources and abilities.

I do fall my own trees now but I also have a crane, forklift and other ways to handle them. 

J scrounged up his own from various friends along with getting help from and trading work to a local small sawmill.  For the most part he got most of his own logs himself.  He had relatives and friends help with the de-barking with peeling spuds and drawknives.  If left for six months to a year the bark will come off quite easily but the logs need to be off of the ground and even then could get some damage.  The bugs will work on the cambium layer ad decorate the logs a bit too. 

A pressure washer with a turbo nozzle will clean the balance of the cambium layer off of the logs and make them pretty for building with as J did.

A drawknife and peeling spud are the main tools used for debarking.  There are a couple chain saw attachment de-barkers too, but it is work any way you do it.  The easiest is a bit of time with the bugs help but not so much as to damage the logs.

Using the concrete rebar method, he put plastic over the rebar (cut a small hole out ), then filled in the rest of the hole with concrete? 

First make a hole with the desired footing size - in my case none but drove the rebar about 2 feet deep with the jackhammer.  J had problems with some soft soil so had to go deeper to get to the claystone then concrete pier up from that. 

J next filled the hole with concrete to the surface below finished floor and let the concrete set up with a rebar pin in it in the center of the post location.  next he put about a 1 foot or so square of plastic over the rebar - hole in the center of the plastic to sit flat under the final pad and keep moisture below the finished floor and post end.  Then he put fairly dry concrete over that under the post - an inch or two - pretty firm and set the post on that to get it above or at finished floor level.

The concrete and rebar can be hardened in the hole - plastic later at post standing time - just push it over the rebar pin to the ground simply to stop moisture from getting up to the post.  The plastic is not fun to work with at floor level if doing the CBRI light duty floor so I like to keep it down a bit.  Too high and it will want to mess up the looks at the bottom of your post/floor level connection.

[glenn kangiser]

Grenade time.....

The Mexican kids that walked by my son's house used to ask for grenades and were happy when he would tell them... Sure.. no problem.  We don't like them anyway.

Well, this year they may be a bit disappointed as he gave them all to Sassy and me. 

What is less apparent is the fruit's relation to modern warfare. Stemming from the 12th century Anglo-Norman pome gernate, our English pomegranate became pume grenate in Old French. This pume grenate eventually became pomme grenade in Modern French. Pomme grenade, of course, looks exactly like grenade or hand grenade, and this is no coincidence.

The word grenade actually stems from the French pomme grenade. Now thrown by hand, grenades were originally designed in the 8th century. Soldiers discovered that Greek Fire, which was usually thrown by flamethrowers, could also be contained in glass jars, thus heightening it's effect by explosion. By the 15th century, cast iron grenades filled with gunpowder entered the scene and the weapon hasn't changed much since then. Today's hand grenades are definitely lighter and smaller, but the general design isn't too different than that of the Byzantine Empire's.

Yup... not the hand grenade version, but the Pomegranate version. 

Getting the juice out of them can be a daunting task but years ago I invented a small time press to make it quick on a small scale project.

We had about 3 bags full of grenades so it was still a sizable amount. 

First we go to the Grenade Smasher.... my first model had a heavy hinge on the bottom and plywood sides but looked a lot like my new model.



For this one I took a couple pieces of 10 gauge galvanized metal and drilled screw holes to anchor it to one piece of new 2x4 46 inches long.  I left about a half inch space between the two 2x4's for space for the pulp of the grenades and hinged it by drilling a 3/8 hole through the board and both sides.  I inserted a 3/8x5" bolt because that was what I had and made a sturdy hinge from it.

The boards open and the shields are on the sides to contain the smashed pulp and prevent juice from squirting all over.... most of the time....... 



The handles are pushed together tightly.  Say that I can put about 100 lbs pressure on the handles with a fairly decent push.  This exerts between 2000 and 3000 lbs pressure on the grenade pulp.  A few seconds for the juice to run out and the grenade is relatively juice-less and we are ready for the next one.  Sassy cleaned and cut them in half while I did the smashing.  A few skins left in place in the smasher fine tunes the pressure exerted on the grenades.  [idea]



See...squished nearly dry.



Now for the hard part.  I ran to the store to get pectin and Sassy did all of the work.... [ouch]

....I am so thoughtful......

Give me some credit... I did use my welder hands to pull the jars out of the boiling water after Sassy sterilized them....




All done.... Grenade Jelly or Pomegranate Jelly if you must.... and it tastes great too.....

[ben2go]

Ahhhhh ha!So that's what those things are good for.I thought they were for knocking your pal off his bike(when he passed by the right bush)and were made at him.Throw and go.   

[glenn kangiser]

They may have been a precursor to Paintball, Ben....

[glenn kangiser]

Finally after sleuthing for a couple weeks off and on, I got my truck to idle at the proper speed.  Couldn't get it to pass smog because it would not run a couple of the sensor tests.

Reading forums gave me lots of possible solutions and a much better understanding of how the new engines (fuel injected gas - computer controlled) work.  The idle speed was up to 1200 rpm.  There is a small stepper motor that controls the air getting into the intake at idle.  If it does not close down all of the way then too much air goes into the intake causing the computer to read a lean condition and adding gas to richen the mix to keep the engine running and the end result is it runs too fast at idle then.

Apparently they get worn over the years and loose their steps but there is little indication if it is that or a vacuum leak, linkage, carbon in the throttle body etc.  I eliminated many possible causes then went for the new IAC stepper motor.  About 10 minutes later I had it on in front of the parts house... started it up and watched the idle step down to 650 RPM just like it should.  Yea....

One of the sensors that would never complete completed tonight on the way home when I stopped to get gas.  I may git'er done yet.   One sensor to go and I can take it in for smog check.

I am using an advanced checker from Actron that will read the Drive Cycle readiness saving lots of money on non-pass checks.  It is more than a standard OBDII reader but is worth it in the long run.   

http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP9580-Scanner-CodeConnect-Trilingual/dp/B003IOITRG/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1320548303&sr=1-1

This checker is about $100 cheaper at Amazon than some other places.



http://www.actron.com/product_detail.php?pid=16364


On another note, our extended family friend and former guest at the Underground Complex, Myo, is back in Myanmar and other parts of Asia continuing to teach farmers and government representatives better ways of growing rice, recovering more crop with less loss and reasonably priced methods of drying the paddy.  He works with reasonably low tech to suit the area resources and to help improve the lives of the people there.

Here is a picture he posted and I thought it was so cool I wanted to post it here too.





Myanmar Rice Harvest, Thike Too Kan Village, Thonegwa Township

[ben2go]

I did not know this, until I watched a documentary on SC,but my state is one of the top rice producers in the US.We used to be the top producer of peaches in the US, until big business started coming in around the late 80's.Then the rich people started buying up the failing peach orchards and developing them.We were producing more peaches than the peach state,GA.I am happy I was part of that in the 80's.It does make me sad to see the old packing sheds,I worked at,being gutted and torn down.I drive by them everyday on my way in and out doing my daily business.

[John Raabe]

Neat photo. Looks like totally appropriate technology working with people at the "grass roots" level. This is where new methods and learning can be empowering rather than disruptive.

[glenn kangiser]

Our student guest, Kyan mentioned he missed the snow so I put together a little slideshow of our trip to Yosemite this Last New Year with him and Cherry. 



Thought you might enjoy it -   Click the above picture to look at the Smilebox Slide Show.

Note... I use Smilebox for a quick way to put together a slide show because basically I'm a bit lazy sometimes....

[glenn kangiser]

It is amazing how much rice we grow here in the states, Ben and most of us are not aware of it.  I was not even aware that SC had rice farms.

John, I love the pictures of the way they live in Myanmar.  It is like going back in time a hundred or more years, and yet I wonder if it is a bad thing .... or a good thing?

Myo teaches them how to get along without massive amounts of pesticides since they manually work the fields.  Here our Industrial giants continue to pollute our resources for eons to come.  Who is better off.......

Myo gave me pictures to share.  He's a great photographer and teacher.  Here is a farmer in Myanmar plowing his field with a water Buffalo.  The Buffalo provides both power and fertilizer.  When industry moves to tractors, then these farmers have to not only buy fuel, but also fertilizer.  One tractor puts a lot of people out of work and greatly disrupts the old way of doing things.... an improvement?






Animals can provide threshing power... maybe a bit slow but if you are not planning on profiting from feeding the world, maybe it's better?





Rice hulls and waste are burned on Myo's farm to power the giant steam engine that runs his rice mill.  I hope one day Sassy and I get to take him up on his offer to visit there.

[ben2go]

I didn't know SC had rice field either and I didn't think there were any steam engines being use,except for the novelty or history. 

[glenn kangiser]

Myo still uses the steam engine as a necessary part of running his family rice mill, Ben.



A Fireman is kept busy and with the boiler during operation to keep the fire stoked with rice waste.  This is a boiler from a locomotive...still maintained and working today.

She bellows a bit of smoke when getting fired up, but I'm sure Al Gore will issue them some carbon credits for getting rid of the rice waste... 




Since his time with the Humphrey Fellowship at UCDavis, and the visit to the Underground Complex, Myo continues to educate others, even going out to the fields to teach the local farmers better ways of procuction as well as cutting losses of what they have already grown.



Rice is a crop of major importance to the rest of the world, besides Asia.