Help - Property Contract

[homesteadjourney]

After much haggling with the county zoning folks about building a little house and them refusing to budge, we ended up looking for an existing house.

We have entered into a contract to buy a 100 year old renovated 1000 sq. ft. house with five acres in Southern Indiana. The house was listed FSBO, and we entered into the contract without the aid of a Realtor or Real Estate Attorney. In good faith, I gave the owner $250 when the offer was made on the house. Everything was going well with the mortgage process, insurance, etc., until the house inspection earlier this week.

According to my inspector, there is no evidence of any SEPTIC system on the property. Right now, the waste line appears to be draining 8 ft. from the house toward the creek which runs directly behind the house. The inspector was able to trace the line about 8 ft, then lost the pipe.  He lifted up some rocks where he lost the pipe, and voila!, surface water.  Furthermore, the spring fed, hand dug well has DEAD FROGS in it (who knows what else - water report comes back tomorrow).  The septic seems to present a the bigger problem, as there is less than 75 feet from the creek to the road (the house sits in the middle of the creek and road), and septics must be installed AT LEAST 75 feet from waterways or a water source according to law. Oh, I should mention on the other side of the creek is a steep wooded hill with about a 30 degree grade uphill.  

Where this gets interesting is that the owner on the sellers disclosure states that the septic sewer is in operational condition, and even goes so far to state on the information flyer for the house "Well water, septic sewer inspected in 1999". The inspector states that if the owner does not wish to rectify the position, I should call the local board of health, and they may condemn the property, which I PRESUME means all contracts on the house will be frozen until the owner makes remedy to the lack of septic - of course, he may not be willing or able to do so, because he cannot comply with the law in terms of putting in a new system, and furthermore, I doubt he will want to be out of 10-20K to put a new system in.  

The seller is planning on taking a look at the "septic" on Friday and is supposed to get back with me.  Anyone have any ideas?  I'd hate to lose this house because it is only 3.5 miles from my work and was a fair price - a combination that is getting very rare in the area I am looking in.

Thanks in advance,

Christopher

[glenn-k]

Hi Christopher -- maybe he would discount it enough for you to put in the system.  It can be pumped uphill to go into a standard drainfield without a great amount of added cost if the soil on the hill is good enough for a drain field.  'The septic tank can still be at the house.  A sump for effluent and the pump is added just outside the tank -- you will probably have to double pipe for a good distance if you have to cross the stream.  Just guessing here as I don't know all of your conditions.    

[homesteadjourney]

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the message.  I'm still waiting to hear back from the owner, but in the meantime, I got the result back on the well water - it has coloform bacteria in it.  Guess that's no suprise with the dead frogs down in the well.  As for running the leach field up the hill, I wonder if excavating would have to be done, and if the steep pitch of the hill would be compliant with regulations.

Guess we'll know by this week when the owner decides what he wants to do next.  All I can say is: "I'd rather be building".  Hey, maybe John could sell some bumper stickers with that phrase with this website address for promotion :-).

Christopher

[glenn-k]

I did one last year we pumped uphill 34' elevation -- about 130 feet run -- 30 to 40% slope on the hill - standard drain field with lift pump for the effluent.

[Amanda_931]

How deep is this well?  And why the heck wasn't it capped?

What kind of coliform may be more important, even if it is too expensive to bother finding the answer.  If there are cows around you'll get them--more than likely--MTL in PEG's language--and they're worrisome, annoying, and maybe in every well in the county in larger or smaller quantities.

The previous well inspector here said that every well in the county was contaminated, and most of the people drinking the water had gotten used to whatever critters were in there, never noticed a problem.  I haven't heard of anyone treating their well water--although that may be because I haven't asked--for sure there are plenty of people who don't treat.

I buy (or just get from a nearby community center) water only when the spring is nearly dry.  The way it will be if we don't have rain in the next few days.  But I use very little drinking quality water.

But yes, the dead frogs have to go!  With a good flushing after that.

[glenn-k]

A gallon or two of laundry bleach left a day or two with water preferably recycled throuigh the well a bit -- run a hose back into the cap - water on to all faucets until you get strong chlorine smell then let it sit - min 8 hours or so-- then run all outlets till water is clean - no smell ---Of course - do not drink the water until re-tested--- should disinfect the well if polution is not still coming into it.   If it doesn't clean up more work would be necessary to eliminate the problem.  I am a licensed well driller.

[CREATIVE1]

I guess another question is, could you mortgage the home "as is" or would the lender back out?  Could you buy it "as is" for a reduced price, with septic and well estimates in hand, and include those costs in the mortgage? I hope you have a "subject to" clause in the contract so you can at least get your $250 back.

[desdawg]

Here in Arizona a well and septic require a minimum of 100' seperation. I don't know Indiana law but I would assume that is pretty standard. I belong to a septic installers BB and I know this to be true in at least some of the other states. When referring to the septic system they mean any part of the system including the tank (in case it ever leaks I suppose). If that is the case in Indiana even pumping the effluent may not work. You may need a sewage pump rather than just an effluent pump.

[Amanda_931]

By the way I'm not in favor of exposing ourselves to things like amoebic dysentery, cholera, typhoid, giardia, cryptosporidium or even the really evil e-coli.  Clive Ponting in (Green History of the World) says--rightly, I expect--that getting away from those through improved sanitation (along with improved nutrition) is largely what increased the human life span in the last part of the 19th and into the 20th century.

But by now, I understand that pediatricians are urging parents of premature babies to let their kids play outside in the dirt.  Give their immune systems something to do instead of just freaking out and causing auto-immune diseases like asthma.

[homesteadjourney]

Well, we perhaps have some good news.  Stopped by the property on Sunday afternoon, and the owner was there cementing pipes together.  Seems that there was an inch and a half gap between the intake pipe of the septic system and the pipe coming from the house.  The septic was also completely filled.  Owner will have that pumped out.  

I'd say the well and septic are 50' away from each other - which I believe is the requirement in Indiana per the inspection report.

Owner has also agreed to put a new cap on the well, get it pumped out, and disinfected.  Glenn, I will tell him about your method.  Seems like that should work.  This well used to be a "wishing well", so therefore, it was uncapped.  He knocked down the wishing well about a year ago, and then put a manhole cover over it - but the manhole cover has holes in it that would allow for drainage, snakes, or whatever else to get into it.

I do know that the well does not have ecoli in it.  While it would be nice to find out the makeup and counts of the choloform bacteria, being that I used to work around labs in the hospital all the time, I know that those particular tests can run into the hundreds of dollars.

I'll give you updates as I get them.  Thanks everyone for your feedack!

Christopher

[benevolance]

Glenn,

My grandma used to pour a couple cups of bleach in her well every summer to make sure no bacteria or dead critters were gunking up the water...

I saw her do that when I was a little boy and as I grew up I saw almost everyone that had a well did it...Sort of rule of thumb for home owners...

It is astonishing that people today do not do the simple little maintenance for things like their well water.

Grandpa and his neighbor dug the well at the old house... Tripod set up over the pit one guy filling buckets with dirt...And the guy at the surface working a rope and pulley dumping the dirt out.....They would switch every hour...Until they got it deep enough....

They dug my Grandpas well and then a few weeks later they dug the Neighbors....60 years later the water is still great...Though the county made everyone switch to city water....What a shame.

[glenn kangiser]

I was in Mexico and the town people took me to show me a well they were digging just as you described.  They were proud of their project.  

Wells should be sealed for 20' deep per code (here) - usually as casing is sealed in with concrete or clay to keep all surface water out.

[homesteadjourney]

Yes, this is a hand dug, spring fed well, probably at least 100 years old.  It is lined with creekstone (I'm assuming bedrock, but I could be wrong).  

As a side note, would it be possible to have a "dual pump" system, whereas I add a hand pump in addition to the electric pump that is there now, or is that not an option?

Thanks,

Christopher

[benevolance]

Hand pumps are great! Try to get one that will draw water  further though....Some of the cheaper cast iron knock offs will not draw water more than 15 feet...

No reason you cannot have the hand pump as a backup.....I have been in a camp/cottage where all they had was 2 handpumps...One for the bathroom and one for the kitchen sink.... I thought it was pretty damned cool as a child

[glenn kangiser]

Maximum lift for a good suction type hand pump is 27 feet at sea level if I remember right - limited by atmospheric pressure-- however if there is a rod that goes down into the well to operate a pump cylinder then you can pump from real deep.

How far is it to water there?

[Chateau Prideaux]

The thought of having near surface water is hard to recon. Out here it's a 500'+ well, and they'll likely start metering and charging everyone for their well usage in the next couple years.

[glenn kangiser]

What area are you in, Chateau?  I would have a real problem with them if they tried to put a meter on mine.

[Chateau Prideaux]

Travis Country, Texas. Just North of Lake Travis.

Lots of folks in this area have wells. I'm hoping for Rainwater with periodic tanker trucks to fill up during the summer, as needed. Mostly because the water that comes up if very hard and has some sulfer. Plus the guy across the street paid 25k to take the city water under the highway along his property. He negotiated a deal that he could load 15k of that onto others who tie into his side.

He offered to let me trench across his property (1000's of feet)... and only charge me 7.5k to tie in.

Paying 7.5K plus trenching, pipes, for the opportunity to pay for water at a lower quality that I can get off my roof doesn't seem like a good deal to me.

[glenn kangiser]

How much rain do you get there - have you done any calculations to see how much water you could get?  How about collecting water from earth tubes -- enough humidity for that and ground below the dew point?

I drilled wells for about 10 years and occasionally hit some with hydrogen sulfide, one with a pretty good amount of natural gas and cleaned a couple with some crude oil in them -- we have a small oil field near where I used to live.

[glenn kangiser]

I guess digging rock is still digging rock though.

[Chateau Prideaux]

Doubt I'd get much out of hillside moisture. It's limestone and dies out rather quickly. During summer it could be a couple months between rain events.

As for calculations, I've done enough to figure that on average (assuming headcount, usage and surface area) I'll be ok except for 1 tanker truck a year, for the main house. The cabin I'm planning for my dad should be ok as he's been living on water we've been trucking in (100 Gallons, every month or so) for the last year or more.

Travel trailers are not the ideal living arrangement and I bet he'd love to take a nice long hot showers when we get the cabin built. So I expect usage to grow, but certainly within that provided by the cabin's watershed.

[Chateau Prideaux]

here's a link to a site with a good rainwater spreadsheet.

http://www.leeandstephen.com/rainwatercollection/index.htm

[glenn kangiser]

It wouldn't be hillside moisture -- It would be from the air.  If the air is damp you would pull it - blow it - through an underground tube.  The cool ground would drop the temperature below the dew point of the air and the moisture would fall out of the air --- condense on the inside of the tube -- pvc? and run down hill to the bottom where you would collect it and use it for one thing or another.  Drinking water could still be carried in.

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks for the link.  

We get 25 to 50 inches of rain here and could easily get enough water by collection if I made a way to save it-- but the well is easier.

[Amanda_931]

If that Texas place is over the Ogalalla aquifer I don't think I blame the PTB's for wanting to charge people quite a lot for tapping it.  According to reports, it's going down fast (think irrigation) without recharging hardly at all.