EPA Considering Ban on Traditional Ammunition — Take Action Now

[peternap]

http://www.nssfblog.com/epa-considering-ban-on-traditional-ammunition-take-action-now/

[MushCreek]

Oh boy- here comes another ammo shortage! I'm liking the idea of a crossbow more and more.

[MountainDon]

Grrrrr. 

[ScottA]

It's just as well, silver bullets work better on vampires anyway... ...or was that werewolves? I can never remember that.

[peternap]

I hate to say I told you so....but I repeat:

Lead is a better investment than gold. The EPA has already banned wheelweights in California and are trying to get it in the rest of the country. Buy a mold or two and stock up on lead.

[MountainDon]

FWIW, letters off to my congressman, 2 senators and to the EPA.


I have about 50 pounds of lead scrap on hand.  

[glenn kangiser]

I am thinking lead acid battery cores- especially deep cycle solar could be an alternative source of lead.  Golf Cart and L16s are lead antimony - harder than plain lead.

[peternap]

I am thinking lead acid battery cores- especially deep cycle solar could be an alternative source of lead.  Golf Cart and L16s are lead antimony - harder than plain lead.

Battery

You need a little antimony Glenn......but don't use the inside of the battery. Casters will use almost anything except battery plates.

The warnings about smelting automotive batteries to recover the lead they contain needs a bit of explanation. Doing so really does have the potential to harm or even kill you and here is why. Maintenance free/low maintenance batteries use calcium metal-doped lead to catalyze the hydrogen gas generated from water electrolysis back into water. That is what makes the batteries low maintenance or maintenance free, you don't need to add water to the cells as often like in the old days. When the battery lead is melted down there is enough sulfuric acid from residual electrolyte trapped in the lead dioxide and lead framework of the battery plates to react with the small amount of calcium metal in the lead alloy. Normally when sulfuric acid (or water) gets in contact with calcium metal it undergoes a rather vigorous reaction that generates hydrogen gas. In and of itself this is no big deal, hydrogen is a simple non-toxic asphyxiant that is also flammable. But the lead alloy used in batteries also contains a bit of antimony and even arsenic to help harden and strengthen the lead to withstand the vibration and general knocking-about batteries have to withstand in order to survive normal automotive use. When hydrogen comes in contact with arsenic and antimony, or compounds of these two elements, the hydrogen reacts to form ammonia analogues called arsine and stibine, AsH3 and SbH3. Both of these are heavy gases and both have the similar characteristic odors of rotting fish. In World War One the Germans experimented with these, along with phosphine, another rotting-fish-smelling gaseous ammonia analogue with formula PH3, as war gases. As such they were highly effective since they are deadly in amounts too small to easily detect. In even smaller amounts that are too small to immediately kill they cause rather painful lung damage that often eventually leads to emphysema and lung cancer.
So, leave smelting car batteries or using lead smelted from them to professional recyclers. Many folks including myself have successfully smelted batteries and lived to tell about it, but the risk is just too great to mess with the stuff.


rl371

[MountainDon]

Ah well, while I was looking for what I recalled reading I see peter was a busy beaver too...   


I have read that battery lead is a poor choice for bullets. Something about there being strontium and calcium added to the lead and that it casts poorly. As well there are potential problems with toxicity....

The lead alloy used in batteries also contains a bit of antimony and arsenic to help harden and strengthen the lead. When hydrogen comes in contact with arsenic and antimony, the hydrogen reacts to form ammonia analogues called arsine and stibine, AsH3 and SbH3. In World War One the Germans experimented with these as war gases. As such they were highly effective since they are deadly in amounts too small to easily detect.

[peternap]

There are some alternatives. Zinc is allowed in California wheelweights and it is lighter than lead but shoots moderatly well. It takes more heat to cast, about 750F if memory serves me. Beats rocks though.

I wildcat an ultra big bore I named the .730DDR. Throws a 1200 grain slug at 1800FPS when I do my job right. (blown out 50 BMG cases and a 12 ga head added to keep it legal)


I have loaded some strange things in very tough, unslit, steel shot wads. I call them plastijackets. One day when I was bored, I filled one with concrete and let it harden. Shot pretty well too.

The steel shot metals are a little pricey and scarce to consider alternatives.

Swaged iron in an appropriate jacket will work.

I've lathe turned a lot of big bore slugs out of solid brass and they are super slugs.

What the EPA is doing is forcing experimenters to find another type of bullet.This may get interesting!

[glenn kangiser]

Good info - looks like sealed and low maintenance are the worst.  I found a bit of interesting info here on alloys


http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

I  hear DU is good.......

[ScottA]

Looks like this got blown off pretty quick.

http://politics.usnews.com/news/washington-whispers/articles/2010/08/27/epa-surrenders-to-nra-on-gun-control-issue-epa-rejects-attempt-to-regulate-lead-in-bullets-after-nra-protests.html

More media hoopla than anything else right now.

[glenn kangiser]

Interesting comment form your linked article, Scott.

Lead is already everywhere.

I would think that the EPA would make an attempt at making sure municipalities, mostly on the east coast, remove their lead water supply lines. Water supply to most if not all of the houses in the historic district of Albany, NY, where Lancaster Street, Willett and Lark Streets are located have lead supply lines. I have personally seen them and replaced one also.

Also solder joints throughout the city have lead in them, each and every one.

Lead is in all stained glass joints, oakum backed lead seals in drain lines and lead used in tinning tin roof systems, all old stuff. You cannot make the earth completely safe so get over it and try to enjoy what time you have on it.

People are the real problem here.

   BR

I read that it was a great possibility that Rome fell due to lead poisoning from the water supply lines -- caused the politicians to lose their minds......


Could that be the problem in Washington DC?   ....

[rick91351]

Quick check the Speaker of the House and see if she might have ingested lead there has to be a reason she is so ..... Humm ..... her and Joe Bidden have drank at the same watering holes I am sure.  Glenn you might have something there...    

[MountainDon]

Sort of off the immediate topic, but related.....


It seems to me that over the past decade I've read now and then about various US Army attempts to develop a non lead bullet. They had some tungsten (?) and tin and tungsten and nylon bullets that worked as well as the usual military bullet. I believe they made millions for target use on military bases. Then I believe years later it was found that the tungsten (/) was little better than lead for toxicity problems.   I'd still like to see some proof of how much lead can actually leach from an expended lead bullet, or fishing sinker. 

[considerations]

" I'd still like to see some proof of how much lead can actually leach from an expended lead bullet, or fishing sinker."

Enough to kill a goose if they pick up shot for their gizzards.