thoughts on the mosque?

[muldoon]

I am pretty sure everyone is aware of the community-center / mosque being talked about for ground zero.  I wont link to any articles, because there certainly seems to be plenty of polarizing opinions on this thing. 

What do you guys think?  Freedom of religion? separation of church and state?  slap in the face to the country?  Pouring salt into the wounds?  a non-event being hyped? 

What do you guys make of it? 

I'm pretty much against it on general principle.  I dont think the government has any business being involved in any such thing - be it muslim, christian, baptist, catholic, or whatever - why is Obama even commenting on this thing.  As for the location, it certainly seems to play in the history of the islamic culture to erect shrines at culturally significant locations of those who do not share their beliefs only to claim it is their sacred ground later. 

I do not like the constant dividing and polarizing politics I am seeing.  I'm pretty sure there is middle ground among hundreds of millions of Americans on many things but all I see everyday are things that appear intentionally to divide us and make us argue among ourselves.  The mosque being one of many in a string. 

In my opinion, they asked themselves what is the most insulting thing possible ... let's push for it.  That's my take. 

[MountainDon]

I am torn on this.  

Note that it's not right at ground zero, but it is close. How do you draw the line as to what is too close?

Does a nearby strip club tarnish the hallowedness of ground zero?

Do we have other restrictions on where churches, tabernacles, synagogue, etc. may be located? I don't think so. Looking at the question that way I believe it is unfair to single out one particular religion.




It also irks me to think that a mosque might be built there.  

But then I could enumerate a number of things that irk me and many of them are legal.

[ScottA]

It's to distract people from the real issues.

If they control what can be built where according to religion then we no longer have freedom of religion, period, end of discussion.

[poppy]

1.  I don't think it's a mosque, guys.

2.  Ever hear of the 1st ammendment?

Does it offend me, yea, kind of, but there's much about freedom that offends folks.

[bayview]

It's to distract people from the real issues.

   Misdirection . . .


/

[StinkerBell]

a greek church fell at ground zero. the state has taken over the property to build an underground parking garage and maybe just maybe ina few years the greek church might be able to rebuild, if the state is able to settle with them

I have issues... a person has right to worship and there is freedom of religion, but we all know there are things like zoning issues. This should have been dealt withas a zoning issue.

http://indyposted.com/38342/greek-orthodox-church-at-ground-zero-destroyed-on-911-still-not-rebuilt/

[NM_Shooter]

Seeing as how the actual muslim population in that are is next to zero, I have to conclude that they are building there to make a point. 

I'll start cutting muslims some slack when they start policing their own (and show up on Southpark).

[glenn kangiser]

I think our government pulled 9/11 as an inside job (or assisted and let it happen as Mossad operatives were captured at ground zero filming)  to forward their agenda,  demonize the Muslims, take the war to Afghanistan when so called hijackers were Saudi's, not Afghans or Iraqis and not on the passenger lists,  so the mosque doesn't bother me.  

A distraction as stated, to piss people off at Muslims.  The real agenda is our continued expansion of wars for fun and profit, and this will help get a large part of our gullible sheeple to support whatever Bush, Obama and future puppets of the NWO will want.

All a psyop for those who will believe the shallow lies of the criminal government and corporate greed.  Thousands and more will die as the masses side with the killers, mercenaries and government operatives they cannot be bothered to see on the other side of the world.  


Yes people - they are making the blood run.... it's hot ... it's sticky... it's red and leaks out of holes in innocents as well as guiltys and government wants your approval so they pull this s--t propaganda to get us to say --- "OH take care of me.... oh... go to ____________ (insert defenseless country here) and put holes in the bad middle easterners and their families -daddies, momma's, babies. indiscriminately."  Let's not forget about our kids sworn to protect our country... (even though we were not attacked by the countries we invaded, destroyed and occupied).... they leak and get smashed too.  Their lives are being stolen and squandered by corporate greed and lust for power.  Not to protect the country.  That is why Pat Tillman was snuffed.  He saw what was going on and was going to open his mouth.  Ask his dad.


...... so a few Christians get in the way (they leak blood too)  ... doesn't matter though..... Gov said collateral damage happens (must not say women, babies , children blown to pieces - too messy for the squeamish citizens stateside)  (Look for pix on foreign news if you want to see what it looks like) ...... oh, and by the way... tons of new gold, silver and oil discovered in Afghanistan.... would you grab a bit of that too for our corporate interests... .

....and am I complicit in guilt for the bloodletting over there if I agree here?...

Dang it... looks like I lost it.... Yup the mosque is just a side show....

[325ABN]

Seeing as how the actual muslim population in that are is next to zero, I have to conclude that they are building there to make a point. 

I'll start cutting muslims some slack when they start policing their own (and show up on Southpark).

+1 for sure!

This is nothing less than a provacation lest we forget!! What other people riot and kill each other, threaten death all for a stupid azz cartoon?

[Shawn B]

The mosque is just another distraction that Faux conservatives will try to use for political gains, as well as liberals too. The whole thing is just part of a multi ring circus that makes up the news, government, and other happenings. 


That being said I know that I would never want to live in a city where the call for prayer wails from the minnirettes several times a day. Think of Derborne Michigan.

[Windpower]

right on target, Glenn


Oh, and about the backers of this 'mosque'

(eta the connection)


The Cordoba Initative backers

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/ci-partners

From the American Society for Muslin Advancement

http://www.asmasociety.org/home/p_support.html

Carnegie Corporation of New York
Rockefeller Brothers
Rockefeller Philanthropy
Rockefeller Brothers Fund
Global Fund for Women
William & Mary Greve Foundation
The Sister Fund
The Russell Family Foundation
Danny Kaye & Sylvia Fine Foundation
Graham Charitable Foundation
Deak Family Foundation
Henry Luce Foundation
The Elizabeth Foundation
The Ms. Foundation
Hunt Alternatives

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Windpower. 

I thought it may have been just me seeing things...

It seems that things are more obvious to Pilots (as you and I are) who know that this whole thing starting from 9/11 could not have been pulled off without inside government assistance, hence it is obvious that the mosque is a sideshow to direct anger of the sheeple toward the Muslims.  The training we had to go through for Private, Instrument and Commercial Pilots license shows us how impossible that event would have been without inside assistance from gov.

Note that ATC was as baffled as the rest and they made a tape of the event discussion immediately lest they forget any small detail.  Their superior came in and destroyed it - he was in on the scam - they were not.

ATC and USAF would not have allowed 9/11 to happen under normal safeguards in place at the time unless ordered to stand down as they were by big Dick Cheney, per Minetta revelations.

[dug]

ATC and USAF would not have allowed 9/11 to happen under normal safeguards in place at the time unless ordered to stand down as they were by big Dick Cheney, per Minetta revelations

The most incriminating evidence against the official 911 story. I am hard pressed to understand how, in light of this, folks would readily accept the official version. It only compounds as you dig deeper, continuing to the mosque. 

[John Raabe]

Here is an interesting read on this topic. It has insights about our human willingness to accept the worst case stories our fears can kick up.


Shame on America, Jews & the ADL

By Rabbi Bruce Warshal

The article originally appeared in the Florida Jewish Journal


To begin, the mosque controversy does not involve a mosque.  It is planned as a 13-story community center encompassing a swimming pool, 500-seat performing arts center, gym,  culinary school, restaurant and, yes, a prayer space for Muslims, which already exists in the current building.  A formal mosque would forbid eating or the playing of music on the premises.   I guess that we are now at the point in America where Jews can have our JCC's and Christians their YMCA's, but Muslims are not wanted.

There is also the controversy over the proposed name, Cordoba House.  The hate-mongers have described this as a reference to Muslim designs to attack western culture, hearkening back to the Muslim-Christian wars of domination in medieval Spain.  The name was chosen for precisely the opposite reason.  In the tenth century Cordoba was the center of the most liberal and sophisticated Caliphate in the Islamic world.  All religions were not merely tolerated but respected.

The caliph, Abd al-Rahman III, had a Jew as his foreign minister and a Greek bishop in his diplomatic corps.  He also had a library of 400,000 volumes at a time when the largest library in Christian Europe numbered merely 400 manuscripts.  There were also 70 other smaller libraries in Cordoba. The very reference to Cordoba reflects the sophistication and liberality of the Muslims behind this project.  They have changed the name of the center to the address of the building, Park 51, to deflect criticism.  This was unfortunate, since nothing will quiet a hate-monger.

Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Imam behind the proposed community center, has been attacked as an Islamic terrorist, even though he is a practitioner of Sufi Islam, which reaches out to all other religions as manifestations of the Divine.  My God, the conservative Bush administration utilized Rauf as part of an outreach to the Muslim world.  You can bet your life that he was thoroughly vetted by our government.  He is currently being used by the Clinton State Department as well in the same capacity.  Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek and CNN succinctly put it, "His vision of Islam is bin Laden's nightmare."

And what is Rauf's sin?  He will build a Muslim community center two blocks away from Ground Zero, variously described as a "hallowed battlefield," "holy ground," and a "war memorial."  Even President Obama in his defense of religious freedom commented that, "Ground zero is, indeed, hallowed ground."  I beg to differ.

If Ground Zero is holy ground, then the railroad station in Madrid, the Underground in London, the federal building in Oklahoma City, the Pentagon (where there is presently a prayer space for Muslims – yes, patriotic, religious Muslim Americans work at the Pentagon) and every other physical location that has been the object of terrorism is holy ground.  If Ground Zero is holy space why plan for it to be developed with office buildings (in which the object will be to amass money – obviously a holy pursuit), a shopping center (in which consumer goods will be peddled to continue to gorge the American appetite for material possessions), and with a theater for modern dance (a project to which I personally look forward as a devotee of the Joyce, the modern dance Mecca of New York)?  I'm sorry, but someone has to tell America that this designation of holy space is merely part of a mass hysteria that really scares me.

The question which must be asked is why this hysteria?  The impetus comes from a triumvirate of right-wing Christians, Jews and politicians.  Fundamentalist Christians are still fighting the crusades, still vying to convert the world to their truths.  Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, to the distress of these Christian proselytizers.  What better way to win this battle than to brand all Muslims as terrorists?

Right-wing Jews think that they are doing Israel a favor by painting Islam as a terrorist religion thereby proving that Israel need not negotiate with the Palestinians.  The idea is to project the concept that we are civilized and they are not.  This theme is picked up in the right-wing press of Israel.  Commenting on the New York proposed "mosque," a columnist in the Jerusalem Post declares that "Islamism is a modern political tendency which arose in a spirit of fraternal harmony with the fascists of Europe in the 1930's and '40's."  Ground Zero isn't Israel's "holy ground."  Why would he be involved with this discussion?  Simply because right-wing Jews in Israel as well as the United States believe that demonizing the religion of 1.3 billion people is good for Israel.  God help us.

Right-wing politicians join the fray.  On Fox News Newt Gingrich compares a mosque at Ground Zero to Nazis protesting at the United States Holocaust Memorial.   The Democrats are cowed by the American outpouring of hate and even Harry Reid voices disapproval of the Park 51 site.  It's a perfect storm of hate.

Periodically we go through this in America.  The anti-Catholic No-Nothing party ran ex-President Millard Fillmore in the presidential election of 1856 and garnered 27 percent of the votes.  We deported over 10,000 people during the First World War because they opposed our entry into that war and we incarcerated loyal Japanese Americans during the Second World War.  Now during this "war on terror" I shudder to think where we are headed.

The tool used in this hate campaign is the concept of collective guilt.  Based on that, all Jews are traitors since Ethel and Julius Rosenberg sold out this country.  All Christians are terrorists since Timothy McVeigh attacked the federal building in Oklahoma City.  Neither are all Muslims traitors nor terrorists.  Islam is not monolithic.  Its forms are as varied as Judaism or Christianity.  I do not practice Judaism the same as a Satmar Hasidic Jew.  A Catholic does not practice Christianity the same as a Jehovah Witness.  Imam Rauf does not share the same Islamic beliefs as bin Laden.

Of all people Jews should beware of collective guilt since we have suffered from it for millennia.  Yet the organization that started this hysteria is headed by a right-wing Jewish supporter of Israel by the name of Pam Geller.  She is quoted in the mainstream media (including the Jewish Journal) as if she is a legitimate political voice.  Yet on her blog, Atlas Shrugs, she has declared that "Obama is the illegitimate son of Malcom X."  She has written that we have "an American-hater for president."  She has proposed that devout Muslims should be prohibited from military service.  She asks, "Would Patton have recruited Nazis into his army?"  To all of the rabbis quoted in the Jewish Journal urging that the "mosque" be moved, know who is pulling your strings.

Finally, to the role of the Anti-Defamation League and its director, Abe Foxman.  The world was literally "shocked," that's the word used by the Associated Press, by ADL's call for the mosque to be moved.  Fareed Zakaria called it a "bizarre decision."  Foxman, a Holocaust survivor, said, "Survivors of the Holocaust are entitled to feelings that are irrational."  Referring to loved ones of the September 11 victims, he continued: "Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted."

How dare Foxman use the Holocaust to justify prejudice.  He does blasphemy to the memory of Jews and other oppressed minorities whose lives were sacrificed on the altar of bigotry.   Zakaria responds: "Does Foxman believe that bigotry is OK if people think they're victims?  Does the anguish of Palestinians, then, entitle them to be anti-Semitic?"

Five years ago the ADL honored Zakaria with the Hubert H. Humphrey First Amendment Freedoms Prize.  Incensed over ADL's succumbing to bigotry, he has returned the award with the $10,000 honorarium that came with it.

The last word was recently written by Daniel Luban, a doctoral student at the University of Chicago, in Tablet Magazine: "While activists like Pam Geller have led the anti-mosque campaign and the broader demonization of Muslims that has accompanied it, leaders like Abe Foxman have acquiesced in it.  In doing so they risk providing an ugly and ironic illustration of the extent of Jewish assimilation in 21st-century America.  We know that Jews can grow up to be senators and Supreme Court justices.  Let's not also discover that they can grow up to incite a pogrom."


Rabbi Bruce Warshal:
brucewarshal@comcast.net

[NM_Shooter]

I'm against it because I beleive that it is culturally insensitive to the survivors of those who were killed.

I don't recall hearing about any muslims who came out in protest of that which their brothers perpetrated. 

I have a question for those in support of the freedom of muslims to build this center.....

What if the KKK wanted to build a center near the church they bombed in Birmingham?  How well do you suppose that would go over? 

[Squirl]

Sorry NM_Shooter, I disagree with blaming an entire religion (800 million people) for the actions of a few.  Many NY Muslims were up in protest over the actions of the 911 terrorists.  Many Muslims were also killed there.  I remember the elementary school kids that couldn't go home that day because there parents were dead. It wasn't only Christian's working in those towers. Every religion was represented in that massacre.  Also I disagree with comparing a the Muslim religion with the KKK.  Your comparison would be more like blaming all white Christians for the KKK, which I don't think is fair.

[archimedes]

Thanks for posting that great article John

When you take one person's rights away, you take everyone's rights away.

[ScottA]

People don't get distracted by this smokescreen. The same people who are stiring up this mosque nonsense are the same ones who are pushing a world communist government, aka the New World Order. They will use this culture clash to justify more wars of conquest and further stripping of peoples rights.

[glenn kangiser]

I'm against it because I beleive that it is culturally insensitive to the survivors of those who were killed.

I don't recall hearing about any muslims who came out in protest of that which their brothers perpetrated.  

I have a question for those in support of the freedom of muslims to build this center.....

What if the KKK wanted to build a center near the church they bombed in Birmingham?  How well do you suppose that would go over?  

Sorry I haven't got much time now, Shooter, but here is another place the official story is full of it.  These guys that were scripted to play the part of the Muslim Terrorists were not Muslims - at least not religious ones if they were.   The official story goes that these guys were carrying on in a bar partying - drinking - flashing money, picking up chicks -  etc...celebrating the deed they would pull off the next day.... going from memory so we can research it more.

These were actors on the payroll - not Muslims that were really going to attack America.  

[Sassy]

Well said, John...  very astute

[waggin]

Using the reasoning of those who argue against the incorrectly named "mosque", I am curious about some other questions that aren't being asked:

How far from any Native American massacre site, point of distribution of smallpox blankets, or signing of a later renieged upon treaty should the American flag be flown?
How far from schools and day care facilities should the Catholic church locate their facilities?
How appropriate is Mt. Rushmore, carved into the Black Hills of South Dakota...directly on holy ground of the Lakota Sioux?
Why is the religion of the 9/11 attackers directly to blame, yet not that of Timothy McVeigh or Eric Rudolph when referring to their terrorist acts?
What would the appropriate level of sensitivity be for the perpetrators of "manifest destiny" in our country or the Crusades and related campaigns directly perpetrated by both governments and religious institutions?
How far from Salem, Massachusetts should the Puritans and any descendant sects' religious facilities be located?

Note that these are not all my opinions, but some are merely other questions on what I see as a similarly absurd level as the arguments against the proposed facility near (not at) Ground Zero.  However, I think some of these actually have more merit than the whole bogus "mosque" issue.  I am not bashing religion in general or certain religions, but I am pointing out what I see are atrocities that were committed by people that were in powerful positions within those religions and government.  Those in power often use the guise of religion to justify immoral actions or stifle dissent.  I've always liked this quote by Aristotle:   
"A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion.  Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious."  Despite the strong religious beliefs of some of the founding fathers of our country, they still argued for separation of church and state...for good reason.

In reality, my personal feelings are more along the lines of the posters above who point out that this is just a big distraction from more important issues.  Sure gets folks worked up though, so I guess it's working.

Finally, on a lighter note:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2012682048_guest21krull.html

[glenn kangiser]

Finally got a few minutes to look over the Rabbi's letter, John.

A great read and great thoughts and comments.  Obviously he is one who will face reality and not make something out of it that it is not.  Thanks for posting it.

In the last few months we had the opportunity to have two Muslim students stay with us for 3 days while they toured Yosemite National Park.  One was from Jordan and the other from Egypt.  Not only were they some of the nicest people we have met, they also both invited us to come and stay with them in their homes if we ever got the chance.  

The hype and demonization is just that - a means to an end... twist the minds of the gullible sheeple to make them agree with the wholesale slaughter of any Muslims anywhere.  Get everyone to hate them here and the murdering can continue in the middle east.  

Continue putting our kids in harms way fighting for corporate greed... that's OK --- we don't love our kids anyway --- they have been replaced with sports, Oprah, and hating of Muslims.   How about them Cowboys....

That is enough to justify making them kill or be killed as we slip them into the front lines or make them try to duck sniper fire from someone who just doesn't like their country being occupied ... and besides ... look at all of the oil and gold and corporate profit to be made.... just found untold riches in the Afghan mountains...  If it doesn't fatten our portfolios, at least our politicians and big business can benefit.  

Besides - what's a few kids - we have an overpopulation problem anyway...

The Muslims are being set up to be an enemy - they are not anymore "all terrorists" than Christians are all Crusaders.  The gullible will believe the government propaganda and BS and that is what they (gov) are counting on.  

No need to tell the sheeple we want to kill Muslims and take their oil and riches... Just fire up the propaganda machine and make the people hate them, ask for it, want it and volunteer their kids to do it.  The government has spent millions learning how to control the sheeple and the sheeple are not smart enough to see what is being done to them.

Hey, it works good for the military industrial complex...

Enjoyed your comments and the link, Waggin.  The coffee thing is exactly what is going on with the Mosque except that the Mosque controversy is purposely being stirred and is  tied to death for both sides.  The Elite will still profit though - you can bet on that.

[glenn kangiser]

BTW - these are my Muslim friends for those who have not seen one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DDL_cSfoh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap2GXnD34hE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0GHMLLx26w

Damn scary aren't they....  

I don't know why I am so scarred of and pissed off at Muslim terrorists... must be a government conspiracy making me feel that way... [ouch]

Mosque, Church, Synagogue or whatever... good people are good people... bad people are bad people.  Lets not prevent the good ones from doing more good by blaming them for the actions of bad ones...

[Pox Eclipse]

Meanwhile, there are six mexican restaurants within 2 blocks of the Alamo.  Oh, the humanity!

[glenn kangiser]

That's it, Pox..... I'm swearing off Taco-Bell burritos and tacos now..... you have ruined my life.... and possibly saved my gastro-intestinal tract....