Legal Fiction

glenn kangiser · February 07, 2010, 01:40:14 PM

How about some insight on this - what do you think - I have heard of it for years - any comments or experiences

http://www.henrymakow.com/defending_yourself_against_leg.html

rwanders · February 07, 2010, 04:41:36 PM

Amazing-----now we even have to import crackpots/conspiracy nuts from other countries! Surely we can make do with our seemingly abundant domestic supply.

February 07, 2010, 06:30:36 PM

Incoherent rant on an anti-semitic hate website.

"Rino" has been cheeking his meds for a few days running, I'd hazard.

ScottA · February 07, 2010, 06:56:13 PM

It's all true Glenn but here's the thing. You are owned property. At least that's what someone somewhere with alot of guns thinks. And as property you have no rights. You could dispute, argue, deny anything you want but if the Owners decide to cash you in there's little or nothing you can do about it. I'm sure there are some persons on this planet who are considered sovereign, that is self owned. But you and I are not.

Sounds like a conspiricy theory doesn't it? I challenge anyone to test the theory. Refuse to pay or ignore the taxes you are charged. Taxes are the means the Owners use to extract a share of your labor for their benifit. All the BS you are told about paying for roads and schools is a crock. Not 1 penny of your taxes pays for these things it all goes in the Owners pockets.

Luckily the system has some loopholes in it that we can exploit to become nearly free. We are still owned but they won't get as much from you. Get out of debt. Live as cheaply as possible. Do not work to earn 1 cent more than you need to live. Make as much of what you need as possible yourself.

G/L

rwanders · February 07, 2010, 07:51:38 PM

I don't believe any of this crap----but, if you think you're owned,, then you are as good as owned. It must be terrible to feel so powerless.

February 07, 2010, 09:04:50 PM

Quote from: rwanders on February 07, 2010, 07:51:38 PM
I don't believe any of this crap----but, if you think you're owned,, then you are as good as owned. It must be terrible to feel so powerless.

Maybe that's what lies at the root of all this kind of stuff. An attempt to explain and place blame for some terrible sense of powerlessness, of lack of control over life and the world.

Addendum: Actually, this seems to be the consensus among psychologists. For instance:

"Melley proposes that conspiracy thinking arises from a combination of two factors, when someone: 1) holds strong individualist values and 2) lacks a sense of control. The first attribute refers to people who care deeply about an individual's right to make their own choices and direct their own lives without interference or obligations to a larger system (like the government). But combine this with a sense of powerlessness in one's own life, and you get what Melley calls agency panic, "intense anxiety about an apparent loss of autonomy" to outside forces or regulators."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200809/paranoia-911-and-the-roots-conspiracy-theories

Rings true, huh?

MountainDon · February 07, 2010, 10:37:03 PM

Quote from: RainDog on February 07, 2010, 09:04:50 PM

Maybe that's what lies at the root of all this kind of stuff. An attempt to explain and place blame for some terrible sense of powerlessness, of lack of control over life and the world.

I used to have a few good bookmarks regarding the topic of the Psychology of Conspiracy Theories. But it appears I deleted them one day after I decided it was pointless to argue with conspiracy theorists. That's not to say that there are no conspiracies out there. There are, but usually on a less grand, less complicated scale.

The gist of the article I remember best went like this... Some psychologists argue that conspiracy theories meet a basic human need, that a world in which tiny causes can have huge consequences feels scary and unreliable. Therefore a grand disaster like 9/11 or the assassination of a President needs a grand conspiracy behind it. If we think big events like a President being assassinated can happen at the hands of a minor individual, that points to the unpredictability and randomness of life and unsettles us. In that sense, the idea that there is a malevolent controlling force orchestrating global events is, in a perverse way, comforting to some.

That is as believable as many of the conspiracy theories bandied about.

glenn kangiser · February 08, 2010, 01:55:27 AM

That is what I gathered from that pretty well, Scott. Thanks.

I think that the evidence is there to agree with the article as I often see my name written in all caps on certain legal documents.

Possibly the doubters could attempt to get all of their legal documents changed over to their real name, with only the first letter of the name capitalized. I don't think it is possible. The Social Security number is one of those I think.

Funny how everyone else refuses to even look into it.

I am not claiming there are any successful remedies. Just stating that I think the article is pretty well right. Resistance is pretty futile though, I will agree with the rest of you there.

I was in DMV the other day, and a chart there showed that the license fees pay for the roads, police and many other things. It didn't call them taxes. Schools here are supported by exorbitant building fees on permits.

Taxes I understand pay the interest on the national debt to the world bankers.

glenn kangiser · February 08, 2010, 02:21:19 AM

Note that I didn't see anything anti-Semitic on the page I linked and in fact I have many ancestors buried in the Jewish cemeteries in Lithuania. I do not hate my ancestors or any other people in the world for oil, power or any other unjust reason. I would say that to find hate there you would have to be straying off of the topic quite a ways.

February 08, 2010, 07:31:01 AM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 08, 2010, 02:21:19 AM
Note that I didn't see anything anti-Semitic on the page I linked and in fact I have many ancestors buried in the Jewish cemeteries in Lithuania. I do not hate my ancestors or any other people in the world for oil, power or any other unjust reason. I would say that to find hate there you would have to be straying off of the topic quite a ways.

I had to temporarily at least pull your comments, Raindog as John does not permit discussion of a couple of your off topic remarks. If I had found what you went looking for on this page I would delete the subject.

Note that Raindog's comments were in no way derogatory - just the topics mentioned with regard to other things on Makow's site.

Not my policy - John's. He has very few limits but that was one.

If THIS article had anything to do with the topics you posted I would remove it.

THIS topic contains none of the words you posted and I do not frequent his site and seldom read his (Makows) articles. It just happens that this subject is interesting to me and I wanted other intelligent comment on it. He specifically mentioned in his ED note that he did not understand all of it and welcomed comment.

Note that that type of topic is all over the net for those who want it but it will not be discussed or even led into here lest it get out of hand per John's guidelines. Question's - PM me.

Since we know Raindog was able to wander around Makow's site and find OTHER objectionable material, I ask that discussion be limited to THE LINKED page of the site and THIS topic.

If you want your comments back I can send you a text copy and I will delete my file.

No hard feelings I hope - If you like I may be able to find the same topic from a different site.

Glenn

Windpower · February 08, 2010, 02:45:19 PM

No one has brought up the 'fact' that conspiracies such as 911 could never happen because the secrets could not be contained or covered up in such a massive operation

then Gary Wills writes a book about the Manhatten project which was a massive illegal conspiracy that employed thousands of people and spent billions of dollars never allocated by congress

Even Vice President Harry Truman was ignorant of its existence.

General Leslie Groves operated with complete autonomy even to the point of ordering asassinations and operating his own Air Force

rwanders · February 08, 2010, 06:19:33 PM

The media now is nothing like those days------now every cub reporter see themselves as an "investigative reporter" with visions of Pulitzer Prizes. Also, cable news, blogs, twitters, youtube and the internet did not exist. "Secret" and "private lives' are now obsolete terms in the news business.

glenn kangiser · February 09, 2010, 12:28:09 AM

Note to all - if you want this topic removed let me know and I will do it. Personally I did not see anything harmful being discussed except things that were not on topic and they were just a comment about the host of the article - not part of the topic being discussed.

I don't really view this as a real conspiracy theory --- more like finding out about some kind of fraud or trickery that often gets our names spelled in all capitol letters for some unknown reason on legal documents. Why?, and is there more information or enlightenment, is all I was wondering.

I was interested as a welding inspector brought the subject up to me and a contractor up here in the hills who does not have a drivers or pilots license and gets away with it knows enough somehow to accomplish that (legally) apparently. Note that he is not any sort of criminal - outlaw or anything else - just a decent guy. Everybody knows him.

Sincerely,

GLENN KANGISER

RainDog · February 09, 2010, 02:45:55 AM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on February 09, 2010, 12:28:09 AM
Note to all - if you want this topic removed let me know and I will do it. Personally I did not see anything harmful being discussed except things that were not on topic and they were just a comment about the host of the article - not part of the topic being discussed.

I don't really view this as a real conspiracy theory --- more like finding out about some kind of fraud or trickery that often gets our names spelled in all capitol letters for some unknown reason on legal documents. Why?, and is there more information or enlightenment, is all I was wondering.

I was interested as a welding inspector brought the subject up to me and a contractor up here in the hills who does not have a drivers or pilots license and gets away with it knows enough somehow to accomplish that (legally) apparently. Note that he is not any sort of criminal - outlaw or anything else - just a decent guy. Everybody knows him.

Sincerely,

GLENN KANGISER

Conspiricism is at root and by nature hate mongering and bigoted, as the analytical model itself encourages demonization and scapegoating of blameless persons and groups, which at even its most well-meaning creates at the very least an environment where racism, anti-semitism, xenophobia, homophobia, and other forms of prejudice, bigotry, and oppression can flourish.

Conspiracy theory sites are rife with bigotry, discrimination, and intolerance. It's their parcel and trade. I did not "wander around Makow's site and find OTHER objectionable material", ferreting out some rare sectarianism contained. It's what conspiracy sites are. It isn't my comment pointing this out that is the problem, it's conspiricism itself, by definition, that breaches etiquette.

February 09, 2010, 03:12:05 AM

Are you sure that is not a definition of war?

I have to disagree to a point.

Conspiracy is involved in many things and those who correct them are likely all considered conspiracy theorists by the guilty or those who want to look the other way.

Examples:

Hitler - his people would not look- was he assisted by those with a financial stake? He didn't make himself and American business was involved in his financing. IBM made a fortune conspiring with him along with other companies.

http://biggovernment.com/amarcus/2010/01/25/hitlers-other-little-helpers-ibm-and-gmopel/

Richard Nixon-- Watergate

Al Gore - conspiring for millions -Climategate

Bill Clinton - Mena, Ark.

Ollie North -

Iran Contra -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_administration_scandals#Iran-Contra_Affair

Not just a theory and probably exposed by someone with a theory. Definitely not by someone afraid to look into it.....

and on and on and on.... you don't have to look hard to find the conspiracies - real ones, and yet if you will not look you will not see.

RainDog · February 09, 2010, 03:48:59 AM

Glenn, nobody doubts that conspiracies take place all over every day.

"Conspiracy theory", in modern usage, doesn't mean a claim that Lefty and Knuckles planned to rob the bank. It refers to fringe theory with no real evidence explaining a historical or current event as being the result of a secret plot by nearly omnipotent powers. These theories operate outside the laws of logical thinking, and are unhealthy at best and dangerous at worst. It's the stuff of hatred, and genocides have been committed on the basis of them.

Investigation is one thing, and demonizing the blameless quite another.

God, it's late! Night night!

ScottA · February 09, 2010, 08:25:26 AM

It's interesting that the topic is never addressed directly. It is simply labled conspiricy theory and tossed aside. Then the source is attacked and called bad names. I see the same pattern over and over.

Example: Climate Deniers
Anyone who does not agree with Al Gore on the subject of ~~Global Warming~~ climate change is labled a denier and acused of destroying the enviroment. Some have even gone so far as to suggest it be illegal to deny. Yet tons of evidence exists showing fraud and trickery on the part of the so called climate scientists.

If you have an unquestioning blind loyalty to people who don't know you exist and would gladly send you or your children to die in a strange far away land then that's your business. But lets try to address the topic and not just follow the pattern described above. If not, maybe it's better to say nothing.

RainDog · February 09, 2010, 08:56:20 AM

Scott, it's not that the individual conspiracy theories can't, each and every one, be debated against, it's that the problem isn't each little individual theory, but the tendency as a whole. Conspiracism serves to distract society away from ongoing,
structural causes of social and economic injustices, and foments hatred toward groups of people blameless of them.

That logical thought would cause me to gladly send my "children to die in a strange far away land" is a straw man, undeserving of response.

In any case, since when is a source's credibility not an issue in making judgements?

The mainstreaming of conspiracy theories is a real and serious societal problem, and so I don't tend to shut up about that, despite your desire.

Sorry.

ScottA · February 09, 2010, 01:50:48 PM

I never said for you to shut up. What I said was to address the issue. It's easy to tag pretty much anything that goes against the norm as conspirict theory. And as for this being a "serious societal problem", since when has questioning things and events been considered a problem by anyone other than the guilty or biased?

Don't get the idea I belive every BS out there because I don't and there's plenty. But I'd rather see something debunked or proven false then simply swept aside because someone considers it a "serious societal problem". But that's just what I'd like to see. No one is forcing anyone to do it.

As for the original topic of this thread. The author of the article Glenn refrenced and asked about may be a crackpot, maybe not but he didn't come up with this theory. I've seen this before for years. A simple examination of our world shows that we do not own ourselves. Suicide is illegal. You can be drafted to fight a war on the other side of the planet against people you've never heard of and be forced to fight. You can have your property taken at the whim of government. The list goes on and on. But hey it's just a consiricy so the real problem is the person who pointed out the facts not the facts.

Windpower · February 09, 2010, 02:15:43 PM

Well said, Scott.

February 09, 2010, 02:25:31 PM

Conspiracism isn't healthy skepticism. It is a belief system based on lazy fact collection and fallacious assumptions that operate from a pre-existing premise of conspiracy.

When is this a problem? It's a problem when angry mobs burn effigies in the streets, when children in Nigeria develop polio, when the Arab media is rife with conspiracy-based hatred, when children in the West are exposed to and contract diseases that have long been virtually unknown due conspiracy theories condemning vaccination programs, when a group of skinheads in Seattle beat a homosexual nearly to death, etc.

I could go on and on. Conspiricism is a problem, and to more of us than simply the "guilty or biased".

As far as the original article goes... I'll grant that it's difficult to impossible to debate such a convoluted, disjointed, and badly written rant such as that, as is so often the case with websites primarily concerned with conspiracy theories.

If an article is rated credibility by how unintelligible it is, that one certainly walks away with first prize. I concede.

I live in and enjoy the fruits of this county, and in turn agree to abide by certain rules of law. Those rules I don't agree to or think unfair I can lobby and/or protest against in order to change them. I'm not "owned" by anyone or anything. I agree to these conditions willingly as part of a give-and-take contract. I am free to leave and relinquish citizenship if I wish.

Please let us dismiss this notion that conspiricism is simply some sort of honest independent investigation. Circumstance, rumor, demonization, scapegoating, and hearsay are not proofs for any truly legitimate inquiry.

ScottA · February 09, 2010, 06:28:38 PM

OK you win. I don't want anyone to be hurt because of a theory. So no more conspiricy talk. Would you be good enough to post a list of safe approved topics so this doesn't happen again?

RainDog · February 09, 2010, 06:36:53 PM

Bunnies are nice.

Seriously, though, it's not for me to prescribe which topics are spoken of here or anywhere on the web, nor would I if I could. I'm a big fan of free speech.

If someone feels a strong emotional need to espouse conspiracy theories, they are free to do so, as I'm free to retort.

I simply feel that while some people may think it interesting, witty, charmingly eccentric, or free-thinking to promote conspiricism, they should also be aware that those are very real people they're assigning blame to, and should be conscious of the very real potential results of doing so.

glenn kangiser · February 10, 2010, 12:35:08 AM

No problem, RainDog. Let's do it your way.

Why is the name on my driver's license spelled in all capitol letters, "GLENN KANGISER", when that is never how I spell my name and in fact I want the state to spell it as I spell it.... "Glenn Kangiser", so then I will know it is me. Why is it important that they spell it that way?

Just the facts please, but I do want an answer.

Otherwise it looks like the original article is a fact.

MountainDon · February 10, 2010, 01:05:01 AM

ALL CAPS make it more difficult to misread letters. A quick look at some magazines, catalogs and shipping boxes that are laying around here indicates it is not uncommon to have names and streets spelled out in ALL CAPS. I have my name spelled out in ALL CAPS on stuff from the NRA, MIDWAYUSA, AMAZON.COM, BANK OF AMERICA, WELLS FARGO, SAMS CLUB, CITIBANK, NORTHERN TOOL..... It's not a sinister plot. All caps are simply easier to read. There's less chance confusing an l with a I or an L, and so on. And yes my NM drivers license has my name in CAPS.