Supreme Court has Reverse Racial Discrimination Case

[MountainDon]

I find this case quite interesting, especially in view of the fact that we have a Black President.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/66672.html

WASHINGTON — Firefighters from New Haven, Conn., on Wednesday exposed an enduring Supreme Court split, as the justices confronted the year's most anticipated racial discrimination case.

Conservative justices showed sympathy for white firefighters who were passed over for promotion. The court's liberal wing suggested that New Haven officials may have acted reasonably. After an hour-long oral argument, most signs hinted at a close decision later this year.

"The court is not fully in agreement on these questions," noted Gregory S. Coleman, the Texas-based attorney for the white firefighters.

The case called Ricci v. DeStefano differs from the classic affirmative action disputes that have divided the court previously in areas such as college admissions. It also could end anticlimactically, if the court follows the Obama administration's urging to send the case back for more fact-finding.

Particularly among the most conservative justices Wednesday, however, New Haven's refusal to promote white firefighters who'd scored well on written tests seemed acutely discriminatory.

"You had some applicants who were winners, and their promotions were set aside," Justice Antonin Scalia said.

The case arises from New Haven's efforts in 2003 to promote officers. Among the applicants was lifelong firefighter Frank Ricci, who's now 34.

The fire department's 100-question written test counted for 60 percent and an oral exam counted for 40 percent in the promotion decision. The test's authors wrote it at a 10th-grade level in an effort to provide equal opportunity for all applicants.

Forty-one applicants took the written captain's test and 90 took the written lieutenant's test. The passing rate of African-American candidates was only half that of the white candidates. Testing opponents call this a "disparate impact," which can be construed as discrimination.

None of the top 10 scoring candidates for the captain's or the lieutenant's positions was African-American. City officials subsequently declined to certify the test results, saying they feared that the test's disparate impact on candidates of difference races would incite an anti-discrimination lawsuit under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

"There is no entitlement to be promoted based on a flawed or discriminatory test," argued Christopher J. Meade, the New York-based attorney for New Haven.

Clearly skeptical, Chief Justice John G. Roberts summed up the city's position as maintaining that "the department can engage in intentional discrimination in order to avoid disparate impact." Repeatedly, Roberts suggested that New Haven wouldn't have thrown out the test results if they'd have meant that only African-American firefighters would be promoted.

New Haven "chose the company to do the tests," Justice Samuel Alito added, "and as soon as it saw the results, it decided not to go ahead with the promotions."

Justice David Souter sounded more sympathetic to the city, concluding that municipalities and other employers are left in a "damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't position" because they can be sued no matter what they do.

Meade agreed that employers should be granted some degree of "flexibility" in how they attain diverse work forces while avoiding reverse discrimination lawsuits.

Thirty-seven percent of New Haven residents are African-American and 21 percent are Hispanic. Only 15 percent of the fire department' s officers are minorities.

[pagan]

Clearly the test was flawed, and it's patently obvious now that they need to administer a third grade level test to minorities while requiring Caucasian firefighters to take a test of doctoral caliber. By administering tests as I've suggesting they'll easily be able to fill all of the highest positions in the fire department with the most qualified people.

Affirmative action works.

[MountainDon]

I believe affirmative action served a purpose at one time, but it is no longer in the best interest of everyone. I liken affirmative action to labor unions; labor unions had a place in the past but are now impediments to efficient business operation; look at GM today.

Affirmative action helps spread mediocrity. I have worked for large and small companies over the decades, as well as working for myself. All those companies used meritocracy as the foundation for advancement. I believe that was not perfectly fair and reasonable. At various points I saw qualified Blacks, Hispanics, Pakistanis and women win positions I had applied for. At other times I won a position ahead of them. I believe affirmative action succeeds in prolonging the racial divide.

The reasoning behind affirmative action is the same that helped bring on the sub prime mortgage fiasco. Liberal do-gooders felt that the financially disadvantaged were being discriminated against because insufficient numbers owned their own homes. They were awarded bonus points to make them qualify for loans, that on a level playing field, they could have never qualified for. That sure made a lot of sense. (sarcasm turned way up on that last sentence).

Nothing we do today can make up for past discrimination. Attempts to provide social justice for those who have been deprived of opportunity in the past only discriminate against others and deprive them of opportunity today. Reverse discrimination makes every promotion of a minority citizen suspect as to its merits.

Color-blind, neutral meritocratic standards are the only legitimate way to select employees, accept college students and grant contracts.

[pagan]

It's a little of both, Don.

I have a couple of buddies who have been in law enforcement in California since 1990 and both have been turned down for promotions despite scoring stellar marks on the exams and excellent performance reviews. Yet minorities who score lower and have serious departmental infractions are promoted.

Obviously the test results for the fire department did not fit in with the preconceived notions of the politicians in New Haven and they rejected the exam outright. The only way for the politicians to achieve their goal is to have two separate exams, an incredibly difficult one for whites and a proportionally easy exam for minorities.

Affirmative action is a band aid liberal politicians use instead of admitting their liberal education policies have failed. Rather than actually fixing the abysmal state of the American public education complex, politicians take the easy route and force public service departments to hire and/or promote unqualified people while likewise giving financial incentives to corporations to do the same thing.

You're right, this is simply a method of rewarding mediocrity and taking away any incentives for people to actually try to better themselves, as they'll never see any benefits for their hard work, unless they're of a legally protected minority persuasion. What has the New Haven fiasco taught white firefighters? Don't bother studying for the exam because you're not getting promoted anyway.

Is there racism, of course, and should people be protected from it, yes. But isn't promoting a minority above a more qualified white applicant also discrimination? How is doing this going to assist with America becoming a "color blind" society?

[MountainDon]

pagancelt, you've got me confused; sometimes that can be easy.

Your last post makes it sound like you agree with me when I state that affirmative action unfairly penalizes some and unfairly promotes or advances the causes of others.

Your statement in reply# 1  "Affirmative action works." makes it sound like you believe affirmative action is good. Or was there sarcasm in reply# 1 that I missed?

[StinkerBell]

I agree with you MD.







**I looked in my paypal twice now and do not see any contributions from you....

[MountainDon]

**I looked in my paypal twice now and do not see any contributions from you....

[pagan]

"Affirmative action works" and "clearly the test was flawed" and "By administering tests as I've suggesting they'll easily be able to fill all of the highest positions in the fire department with the most qualified people." are pure sarcasm.

"...and it's patently obvious now that they need to administer a third grade level test to minorities while requiring Caucasian firefighters to take a test of doctoral caliber." was sarcastic but my honest feeling of how some far left people would approach "fixing" this problem.

I agree with you, Don, sorry to have confused you, but then again perhaps some people are getting a kick out of this.

[MountainDon]

!00%   

[pagan]

Laugh, and the world laughs with you. 

[peternap]

I think you nailed it Don.

The entire equality thing is VERY complicated and misunderstood. Was there discrimination, especially in the South? Sure, still is....BUT... It's different than the image non Southerners have. There was/is segregation. There was/is mistreatment by whites, but only a very small percentage of whites. Most treated Blacks with dignity and respect. Still Do and older black men and ladies are religious about responding with the same.

Now we get into the issue of affirmative action. Are there qualified Black men and women? Of course. Should all blacks be given bonus points for 300 years of OOOpression? Of course not. Every applicant should be judged on their merits. Period.

To do otherwise is a disservice to the company/department interviewing.
All affirmative action is, is a game to make it appear Blacks have overcome their stereotype.  The job is the one that suffers and standards are lowered to compensate.

[rwanders]

During construction of the trans-alaska pipeline I witnessed the following (prior to "affirmative action programs"  74-77)

Each of the large construction camps had a "native counselor" whose job was to help alaska natives who often came from remote villages with very limited experience at white man type jobs and work culture.  The young natives were sent to them as soon as they arrived---the initial counseling included the following:

"If your foreman tells you are fired or laid off, do not leave camp, come to me and I will make sure you are put on another crew----you will not be fired since you are native."

I spoke with several natives about this---most were very embarrassed or offended by this patronizing attitude. Even though they came from small villages they had a lot of mechanical and other skills-----villages don't have repair shops, etc.  Other hands were well aware of this practice and many resented the native hands and used it as an excuse to treat them without respect. I can only imagine what effect it had on an 18 year old kid on his first job but it couldn't have been good.

I recognize the good intentions but, I believe the results are often not good and may have caused lasting psychic damage.