Where do you stand?

[Jens]

One thing that is very admirable to me about Islam, and Judaism, is that their followers are identified by their faith.  It is who they are.  Maybe not all, but a great many.  When I say that it is who they are, I mean that everything they do has basis in their religion.  In their spirituality.  Things are thought of, not just in the context of national law, but spiritual as well.  That is powerful stuff.  There are still a great many atrocities, but if there is one thing history has told us it is that there are people who just plain don't care what the law is.

I think that children in school should be taught about religion.  Not one, but all of them.  I think that they should be taught the codes of ethics involved with each, the historical and sociological influence of each, and the basic tenets of each.  I think they should be allowed to learn about spirituality, and make up their own mind.  You can push people toward things all you want, but most of the time it works better to simply show them the paths, and let them make up their own mind as to which one they will take.  You can try to point them in the direction of the one you think is the right one, but in the end they are going to make up their own mind anyway.  With kids it is usually not what you try to get them to choose. 

BTW, my background...Catholic family, great aunt Marie is a nun, my mother was confirmed at the age of 8 (I think), because she learned to read by reading the gospels.  I was baptized Lutheran, because my parents were not married in the church, so they couldn't christen me Catholic.  Went to Baptist Sunday school for a while.  Catholic high school for 2.5 years.  Didn't really believe in God from probably 10 or so (when I started to think too much about it), until about 20.  Have always loved religious study, and discussion, and learning about why people think what they think.  My path eventually led me back not only to God, but to Jesus as well, through many signs, and a vision.  The weekend after my vision, I got baptized, and haven't been the same since.  I feel like I have returned to my childhood again, and it feels amazing (although my body still feels 70 some days!)!

Somebody said something about God talking to people through different religions, and in different languages, I agree.  I think that if you know God, you know God, period.  Doesn't matter if you are Christian, Muslim, Harri Krishna, or what.

And I have seen hypocrites in every denomination, and religion, it definitely isn't anything new, or going away any time soon.  Beware the yeast of the Pharisees. 


"And the thing that really gets tricky is...who is to say what is right and what's is wrong?"
Pretty sure that one goes to God.
Sonoran...I still believe in Santa too. 

[StinkerBell]

I just can not subscribe to the many religions same God. A God of this religion is the same of the God of this opposing religion. That for me makes the Bible a history book and  not the inerrant word of God. I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

No with that said, I am a very very strong believer in Free Will and that people have a choice to follow this, that, or nothing.

[Sonoran]

Well, the idea that I'm trying to present and to get people to consider is that what is happening is bad, from our point of view. And I know that sounds horrible.

We say that the world is getting worse because people are losing morals that we hold as precious.  Just like we say that it would suck to live in the 1800's.  Someone from the 1800's may disagree with you because he is perfectly happy. Or we say that we are better off than people from other countries...but typically the only way we are better off is because of money.  Imagine a man who is a sex addict, does drugs, has murdered a few people...he may say "man I live so much better than poor starving children in Africa"...but those kids may say, "I have a good life because I am with an honest family and I follow their teachings."

So, WE say that "a constant down spiral will eventually bring you to the bottom," speaking in terms of society, but it is only the bottom because in our minds, it has gone a direction that is not pleasant.

I was using this idea and also thinking about taking "God" out of school.  They are taking out the belief in a God but that does not necessarily have to mean that they are taking out his principles.  The ideas of not committing adultery, murdering, or lying is typically common practice, regardless of whether or not you believe in God.  

[StinkerBell]

But the issue is Sonoran, that the 10 commandments have been removed from schools. Not allowed.

[Sonoran]

But the issue is Sonoran, that the 10 commandments have been removed from schools. Not allowed.

So does that mean that schools are teaching kids to do the opposite of the 10 commandments?  Or by not teaching them anything concerning the 10 commandments, allowing their parents to teach them what is good, and through default allowing the children to eventually learn for themselves what they feel is right and wrong?

[Sonoran]

"And the thing that really gets tricky is...who is to say what is right and what's is wrong?"
Pretty sure that one goes to God.
Sonoran...I still believe in Santa too. 

Personally, I go to God, and I believe in Christ's teachings.  But I don't think that means that other people should have to also. Let them choose for themselves. And if society does things that our different than what I view as right or wrong, I will continue to go to God.

[StinkerBell]

But the issue is Sonoran, that the 10 commandments have been removed from schools. Not allowed.

So does that mean that schools are teaching kids to do the opposite of the 10 commandments?  Or by not teaching them anything concerning the 10 commandments, allowing their parents to teach them what is good, and through default allowing the children to eventually learn for themselves what they feel is right and wrong?

What I do know is schools are teaching our kids at age 12 they can get condoms at the school nursing office. That they have rights, including to fail if they so choose.  They are taught that people do not lie they just have a different reality.  I also know they are not being taught reading writing and math. If they did Microsoft would not have to look to India and other countries for educated staff. Bill Gates has donated millions upon millions of dollars in Seattle  schools over the last two decades and it still has not yielded him a person to hire.

[Whitlock]

I think we need to ask our selves who is teaching our children? Do the teachers care about our children or is it just a way to get a pay check?
Who pays the teachers?
IMHO I will answer this. The goverment is teaching our children,teachers are govermental employees that get payed from tax money.
In all my years of school I only had one teacher that I could say cared about me on a personal level.

Most of us as parents let the schools and TV rase our children. Nowdays both perants have to work to keep the house hold running.
As perants we have to go out of our way to make sure we give our children the values they need to become responsable adults.
This is not up to the teachers that could care less about our children.

Bye the way Sonoran is one of my sons and his mother and I are very proud of him!

[Jens]

As you should be, whitlock.  I have known about a half-dozen teachers personally, and they are all in it to try and help the kids, because they know public school is pretty much a joke.  In contrast to you Whitlock, Only a few of my teachers through school seemed to not be in it because of a genuine concern for children, and teaching.  Even the ones that seemed horrible, were actually incredibly intelligent, and loving, and were trying to help us realize our potential.  Of course that is something many kids don't want, so they get the label of a horrible teacher.  The funny thing is, most of them know the kids don't like them, and they don't care, because they are confident that what they are doing is right.  Talk about teaching how to stand up for your morals!

"I just can not subscribe to the many religions same God. A God of this religion is the same of the God of this opposing religion."

I don't think there are any opposing religions, I think that there are different ways in which God reaches out to different people.  IMO, all of the Christian denominations are different religions, because they teach people much different things.  All religions that teach people about one God, who not only created all of existence, but also care about it, are the same faith, different religion.  Same God, different way of thinking and interacting with him.  I think it quite logical to conclude that if God created all of existence, if he cares about it, if he can love each and every one of us regardless of our sin, that he would use the best method he could to get in touch with his people...all of them. 

The Jews are the chosen people, always have been.  They were chosen since Abraham, to show people how to live as God desires us to live.  Unfortunately, a great many of them refused, from the beginning, but God knew this would happen and had another plan which would bestow a great blessing upon the Jewish people.  To have the human embodiment of God's perfection born into their ranks, to come to them first, offer salvation to them first.  Jesus' message they saw as combative, however, and contrary to their teachings and beliefs.  They could no longer hear God the way he was talking to them.  Jesus and his apostles came as a way for God to get in touch with all of his children, who he has not reached yet.  The message continues to change some, to reach a different audience, just as Jesus' stories changed to apply to different people.  And in the same way that you must speak the language of whomever you are talking to in order for them to understand you, and you must change the story so that it makes sense to them, so must you sometimes change the circumstances of the religion, so that people may get to know you.  Not everyone learns the same way.  Somebody earlier said that religions are like languages to God.  I think that is the right track. 

Here is something that may freak some of you out, and get you spitting and yelling...you ready?  God does not care one bit about or for religion!  Religion is something invented by man to increase his power and wealth.  God cares about each one of you, individually, and collectively.  He cares about our relationships with him, and eachother, and about our salvation.  Salvation is quite a universal concept around the world.  It may not take on the same form for everyone, but Christians have fought over the nature of it since the beginning just within their own ranks. 

[StinkerBell]

I don't think there are any opposing religions, I think that there are different ways in which God reaches out to different people.  IMO, all of the Christian denominations are different religions, because they teach people much different things.  All religions that teach people about one God, who not only created all of existence, but also care about it, are the same faith, different religion.  Same God, different way of thinking and interacting with him.  I think it quite logical to conclude that if God created all of existence, if he cares about it, if he can love each and every one of us regardless of our sin, that he would use the best method he could to get in touch with his people...all of them

.

The differing ways of worship in the Christian religion is not the same as different religions. For example, the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist is ways of worshiping a God who sent Jesus Christ as His Son and our Savior. On the other hand, a Christian understands Jesus to be the Son of God who died on a cross and was raised again, and salvation is through grace (this is the 'loves us regardless of our sin' you talk about); whereas a Muslim believes Jesus was a prophet, and the way to God is to make Him happy with our actions. Only one can be correct (but both can be wrong). To suggest both ways lead to God, suggests God is an inconsistent liar who toys with us. If God does exist (and it sounds like you believe He exists), it is important that we discover the truth about God - whatever and wherever that truth may lead to.

Before I bow out of this thread I want to thank everyone for the discussion, but I feel that it is time to leave because *I* feel this is bordering on blasphemy and *I* in my passion in this area may unintentional flame some one or any one. 

Love You All......xoxoxoxoxoxoxo






*I* = My sole feeling and not me speaking for anyone but me. Hope that makes sense....

[glenn kangiser]

Here is something that may freak some of you out, and get you spitting and yelling...you ready?  God does not care one bit about or for religion!  Religion is something invented by man to increase his power and wealth.  God cares about each one of you, individually, and collectively.  He cares about our relationships with him, and eachother, and about our salvation.  Salvation is quite a universal concept around the world.  It may not take on the same form for everyone, but Christians have fought over the nature of it since the beginning just within their own ranks.

Absolutely the same as my opinion, Jens.  Last night I posted a similar expanded statement of my own but removed it.  There is not a God endorsed religion mentioned in the Bible. 

Men only hang on Bible words and mascots to divide and get money for their own causes or splinter groups.  This actually takes people away from parts of the Word that they don't understand or agree with, but generally causes the leader or group to amass wealth.

The only requirement I have seen is "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name - I am there" - as a minimum I'm sure, but he did not have a large revenue generating entity in mind and in fact threw the money changers out...

You have conducted yourself quite well, Stink, (I am familiar with your passion for the subject) and we love you too... lots--- little computer generated entity that you are....       

But we know that you are real... We have seen the curlers. 

[glenn kangiser]

Stinky, I know you are not blaspheming, and I do not see how educational discussion could cause you to commit it. 

You have to present your views so it cannot affect you.  You just need to keep a level head and try your best to influence others in a kind tactful way.

Neither you nor anyone else would flame here -- you know that.

We seem to be doing quite well on sharing views. 

I was born into the JW's  and don't highly recommend that although most of them are good people. 

Getting out is rather traumatizing but well worth the trouble. 

As with other religions -- they have their truly evil ones and hypocrites -- even in God's eyes. Child molesters and law breakers are generally handled only internally and are not turned into the government authorities so as not to shed a bad light on the religion.  True - they are only a very small part of the religion - I'd say under 2%, but they have their own internal judicial system and consequences.

I, being banished from the club, still have a few genuine friends and relatives there... many only care on the face and show their true colors when the chips are down.

I was taught there that all religions are bad except theirs,  but in the end had to include them into the bunch as it is true in Jens' statement above.  General concepts are mostly good with enough bad ones to pull you away from God's word itself - like any commercial religion. 

I'll plainly stick with God and his word with no twisted interpretations by any "Religion". 

[Whitlock]

I'm with you Stink,Pass the popcorn please

[Redoverfarm]

I am with you Stink.  "Time to &%$$ on the fire and call in the dogs."  Save our energy for a bigger fight. The nice thing about conviction.  It never leaves you.  God Bless All.     

[Sonoran]

Here is something that may freak some of you out, and get you spitting and yelling...you ready?  God does not care one bit about or for religion!  Religion is something invented by man to increase his power and wealth. 

I thought Jesus organized a ministry throughout his whole life.

Do you think that God wouldn't care about a Church that did not operate to increase the power and wealth of the people in charge?  A Church that didn't have a paid clergy, I should say.

[muldoon]

for me, I am much more interested in my relationship with god and jesus directly and not in any way particularly interested in the building many go to on Sundays.  Yes chuch is mostly a good thing, great for building communities, helping others, learning from others .. but as a conduit to god, well not so much for me and my family.   I'm sure others would disagree with that and thats probably a good thing as well. 

My wife and I will teach our children not just about god and morality, but how to think for themselves and not blindly follow anyone or anything.  I want the schools to teach my children science, math, english, basic right/wrong/social skills.  Aside from that, I trust their interpretations as much as anyone elses .. ie I dont.

[StinkerBell]

I don't think I am the one bordering on blasphemy....


People tend to say I flame them when I talk, bad habit being direct.

Glenn, I do understand your view about organized religion. I also see the other side of the Church. It cost money to operate, the lights, the building, and even toilet paper. I also understand when churches grow and then somehow become a mega church. I truly believe the bigger the church  the harder it is to maintain it's grass roots effort. Corinthian struggled with some of the same issues we have today. So it is not new stuff.

The one thing that I truly appreciate is "Free Will" my only job really is to make the introduction to God/Jesus not my job to convict a person to believe. So if someone declines my introduction that is fine. Live a Godly life (to the best of my ability) make an introduction, that is how it is suppose to work imo.

[StinkerBell]

Look at what I did, I lied. I said I would not post anymore...

I am a bad bad person. I will surely burn!







(of course it is all glenn's fault)

[Jens]

Stinker, I am not worried about blasphemy, or about any inflammatory responses.  I seek the truth in things, and trust God to put my heart at the top of the list of considerations, not my words.  People often take things that I say wrong, but I guarantee you that if we were face to face I would be as calm in this discussion as if we were talking about what the weather is like.  Other peoples thoughts, beliefs, and reactions to mine don't scare me, or worry me.  Many eyebrows raise from the things I say, but I feel some of it (maybe not all) is necessary to further thought of the subject and get us closer to our collective goal of being closer to God. 

Sonoran, Jesus sent his apostles to tell everybody his gospel about the Kingdom.  I don't think he ever wanted a religion founded on him.  Jesus was a proud Jew, but simply saw injustices everywhere and couldn't stand it.  In everything he preeched was the message of freedom, not restriction, which is what most religions would do to us.  That freedom must be exercised within the confines of God's law though. 

Islam is an Abrahamic religion, just as Judaism and Christianity.  To say that one knows God, or the true God more than another, is to discount the others as being false.  But how can they be with the same God as the root?  So why can't other religions have the same God as well, event though we may not be aware of it?  If they don't call him Yahweh, does that mean he is not the same God?  Even the word God, is just a name that humans in their weekness, have given to grant tangibility to the intangible.  Names correllate with physical things.    Grace is awesome, but grace without acts, is empty existence, ingrateful existence.  I Don't discount Islam, or any other religion, just know what I have found to work for me.

Shalom.

Glad you're back Stinkerbell.

[StinkerBell]

Jens,

After placing my hand on my head and rereading your post (3 times and I think you made one of my hairs go gray! ). I think, I understand what you are trying to say. It seems (I can be wrong) that you are trying to justify that all roads lead to God. I do not subscribe to this, nor does imo the Bible.

Jesus was more then a proud Jew (this I am still pondering, the proud part) he is the son of God, if you subscribe to that then he was sent as a sacrifice and not just a man who saw in justices. Jesus message was not about freedom, as a matter of fact he re enforced God's laws (see Mat 5:29-30 for example). Jesus reminds us of balance. Spirit of the law instead the legalism of the law, balance and grace. I am still pondering in my mind what you mean about "grace is awesome, but without acts, is empty existence" I think I need more information on what you are trying to convey.

Once again let me say this is all my opinion. I am not hear to tell others (except maybe glenn) they are wrong and gonna BURN. :
Only cause that final decision is not mine to make!

[devildog]

JN 14:6 [Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Hello everyone, I've read only the last 2 pages  on this topic,and have gone against my better judgement and decided to post something.
I can see were its getting more heated up as you go. this is a great discussion, but i've found sometimes,its better to agree to disagree and remain friends.
I have been a christian fo going on 17 years, and currently attend a southern baptist church, of which ive been serving the lord as a deaconfor about 14. but still dont think I have enough knowledge/understaning/ memory to argue over issues. the best thing we can do is study gods word(the holy bible),pray for others to accept it as truth and attempt to plant a seed( and if possible, harvest for the glory of the lord), and leave the rest to his holy spirit.  God bless.
                                                                                                                                                   Darrell 

[glenn kangiser]

Stink, you always hurt the one you love....

I am currently searching in vain for asbestos Underoos... 

I wonder if they have them in Spandex.... hmm

[glenn kangiser]

Kids... don't try this at home...

I think everyone here is doing a great job of expressing their opinions and getting an understand of the issues out to where others can see them.. without killing each other.  If you don't chat as --here-- how can you communicate your feelings or concerns to others?

Except you, Stinky....... I can already feel my buns getting toasty... anybody else smell hair burning?  [bbq]

[StinkerBell]

MY EYES! MY EYES!

I AM BLIND!






I will never ever forget the image of glenn in spandex underoos.....

[glenn kangiser]

Sorry, Stink... I had no pockets in which to carry my belongings... man these things are tight.... Where's a full length mirror when I need one.... oh --- there....

I see what they mean when they say that some people just should not be allowed to wear spandex....

Oh and a little hint guys... the potato goes in the front -- not in the back...