Ethanol is killing our engines

peternap · July 02, 2008, 09:21:01 AM

I have a number of chainsaws, generators, ATV's, weedeaters, lawnmowers, etc. I have been having a world of problems with the ATV carbs and a few of the other pieces of equipment. It's been knowledge that Ethanol eats up the rubber in them (like diaphragms). It jas been a nightmare trying to find gas without Ethanol in it.

I;d had enough today and called the state agency that regulates motor fuel. It appears that urban areas (including contiguous rural areas) are mandated by the Federal government to use Ethanol. They're called Ethanol service areas.

I was told to get away from the urban areas and start looking at pumps. The farther from a city, the more frequent Non Ethanol gas will be. Assuming they are complying with the law, no Ethanol sticker on the pump equals no Ethanol in the gas.

Time to get out the gas cans and stop on the way to the farm.

Homegrown Tomatoes · July 02, 2008, 09:44:25 AM

Peter, around here, the stations selling non-ethanol gas have huge signs out front advertising the fact...some are in the city and some are not. I think that the ethanol is what's wrong with our mower... $:-\$

July 02, 2008, 10:47:02 AM

Mikey B recommends Chevron Premium for small engines - not sure if it is non ethanol, but yes- the ethanol I assume just ate the fuel line on my new generator.

muldoon · July 02, 2008, 11:07:18 AM

the ethanol also has a very limited shelf life and will go bad in a matter of months. even with stabil its around the order of 6 months. regular gas with stabil is supposed to be in the 2-3 year range.

when the ethanol breaks down it solidifies and gels up, stripping/eating plastics (hoses and gaskets) and oxidizing the insides. if you need to run ethanol, empty the tank and dont leave any in there when your done. run her till she stops. using stabil in the gas sounds like a good idea to me also and will help with the residue you cant get out.

glenn kangiser · July 03, 2008, 08:41:35 AM

For every gallon of gas with ethanol you use there is one less quart of moonshine...

3 little children in China starve...

4 little children in Africa go without rice...

I just made all that crap up but there must be some statistics.

July 03, 2008, 10:25:08 AM

You might try checking out a local marina. Typically, marine fuel is pure gas. But it's really expensive.

ScottA · July 03, 2008, 12:43:48 PM

I don't think our gas has ethanol in it. I never had any problems.

MountainDon · July 09, 2008, 08:01:38 PM

For years many areas of the country have sold gas with ethanol during the winter. It can help with urban areas meeting the EPA clean air regulations. Recently though, like this summer, there has been a push to add ethanol to the gasoline. I believe the government (Feds) got into this. I don't think it's a must do, but it is being presented as a method to reduce consumption of petroleum.

I've not had any problems and the pumps I've used have notations that ethanol is being used. I've never had a problem in past years with gasoline I've purchased in the winter months. If one is having issues it just may be that that particular machine has fuel system parts that are more prone to ethanol induced failures.

Using ethanol for fuel when it affects food prices is stupid/shortsighted in my book.

peternap · July 09, 2008, 08:18:56 PM

Quote from: MountainDon on July 09, 2008, 08:01:38 PM
For years many areas of the country have sold gas with ethanol during the winter. It can help with urban areas meeting the EPA clean air regulations. Recently though, like this summer, there has been a push to add ethanol to the gasoline. I believe the government (Feds) got into this. I don't think it's a must do, but it is being presented as a method to reduce consumption of petroleum.

I've not had any problems and the pumps I've used have notations that ethanol is being used. I've never had a problem in past years with gasoline I've purchased in the winter months. If one is having issues it just may be that that particular machine has fuel system parts that are more prone to ethanol induced failures.

Using ethanol for fuel when it affects food prices is stupid/shortsighted in my book.

It's hard on rubber Don. It is especially bad for carbs with diaphragms. I'm guessing that it;s the gas that's causing problems with my ATV's. 3 ATV's, 3 bad carberators. While I was bitching about it the ither day, other ATV owners chimed in (This is ATV country) who were havinbg the same problem and thought it was the gas.

July 09, 2008, 10:00:26 PM

I don't doubt it's related to the ethanol, Peter. It may be that some manufacturers rubber parts are not up to the job. After all many older cars had problems with the first ethanol blends as well, but todays cars do not. Have you seen actual rubber failures?

It might also be related to the vapor pressure of some of the fuels. Some years ago I owned a Jeep CJ with a highly modified engine. Included in the list of goodies was a Clifford fuel injection conversion. It had a devil of a time keeping running when ethanol was in the fuel blend; getting worse as the weather warmed up. It vapor locked. As a control I kept 10 gallons of non ethanol blended fuel in cans. When it began vapor locking I drained the tank and refilled with the reserved gasoline. No problem right off. When I filled with the pump blend the problem was back.

Perhaps some fuel suppliers are mixing higher blends and causing more problems? I've gone through many gallons of blended fuel in the past month with the chainsaws, generator and weed whacker with no events. Maybe lucky

[I solved the CJ problem by switching to a submersed pump in the tank in place of the inline high pressure pump, not that this elates to todays problem.]

desdawg · July 09, 2008, 10:50:05 PM

After I rescued my Bobcat from the pack rats I pulled the motor off my saw mill and loaded up my generator and a couple of chainsaws and brought them down off the mountain. I spent a few hours draining the fuel that had been sitting in them since last season and replacing it with fresh fuel and getting them ripping and snorting like they should. I was concerned that the old fuel would turn to varnish and plug up the carbs. I have pulled lots of chainsaw carburetors apart and found nothing more wrong with them than stale fuel gone bad. That also happened to my Yamaha motorcycle when I left old fuel it it too long. I ran all of the motors out of gas with fresh fuel treated with Stabil. I bought a bottle at Wally World for about $10 that is supposed to be enough to treat 80 gallons of gas. The older fuel I put into my truck, mixing it with 20 gallons or so of newer fuel that was in the tank and it has run out fine. Some of it had 2 cycle mix in it even but the larger component fuel system handled it OK in it's diluted form.

MountainDon · July 09, 2008, 11:16:01 PM

I try to drain the fuel from any engine powered tool and run them dry if I haven't used them in a couple months. Some things like the chain saws I drag home in the fall when you never know if a heavy snow will catch them up there while I'm down here. Hopefully with the snowmobile we'll be able to get up there whenever we want.

Oops! I have to go drain the snowmobile and run it dry. Dang! The best of intentions...

But the chainsaws and generator started right off this spring when I filled them.

peternap · July 10, 2008, 12:37:19 AM

Don, I have seen the rubber degradation on the ATV's. They have an overly complicated choke system and it eats the rubber in it. They are under extended warranty so I don't care about the cost ($400.00) to replace the carbs but I will after the warranty is over. I am saving the old ones and plan to convert them to manual choke.

I think you answered the question just now. The only thing I don't run dry are the ATV's and even though it;s a PITA to shut the fas off and wait until they run dry in the shed, I may have to.

I highly suspect any damage is minimal while running. It's sitting with gas in it for extended periods that does the harm. By extended, I mean a week as these are used weekly.

desdawg · July 10, 2008, 06:59:12 AM

Some people will tell you not to run 2 cycle engines out of fuel as the lubricant is mixed with the gas so you are running out of gas and oil at the same time. This has never caused me a problem and I do it all of the time. I don't think we hav ethanol in most of our gas here. I just saw a blurb in the paper about someone who is going to open an ethanol station in the area.

July 10, 2008, 08:37:13 AM

i have watched t. boone pickens on tv with his plan to use wind power for electricity and natural gas for vehicles and not relying on ethenol which at this point in time is not working well.

glenn kangiser · July 10, 2008, 11:47:40 AM

I think there is a bit of risk running things dry too -- possibly diaphragms cracking - misc other problems , but it seems to be better than the alternative of gelled gas and dissolved hoses etc.

The problem with implementing natural gas is that we are geared for liquid gas on most everything except in a few special cases and you can bet the oil companies and power companies would get us by the shorthair on natural gas too.

Wind power is good but high class people don't like to look at wind generators and, for individual installation and use, it seems to take a bit more than the common specialized training most US citizens have been talked to educating themselves in.

It takes more of a well rounded education in many phases of different trades in my opinion.

desdawg · July 10, 2008, 12:04:13 PM

Natural gas has to be compressed into the fuel tank which requires special equipment. The older tanks didn't hold enough to provide much range. I worked for a propane company some years ago and all of our vehicles were propane powered which seemed like a better alternative at the time as you were still pumping a liquid. Propane developed less HP than gasoline however and still required special carburetion (sp?) equipment. And special knowledge to install and maintain.

apaknad · July 11, 2008, 06:59:27 AM

has anyone heard anything about retro fitting gas guzzlers(my pick up) with some new technology to improve mileage or cut down on gasoline consumption?

ScottA · July 11, 2008, 07:19:23 AM

Quotehas anyone heard anything about retro fitting gas guzzlers(my pick up) with some new technology to improve mileage or cut down on gasoline consumption?

apaknad most gas guzzlers come with a fuel saving ignition device. To save fuel simply keep it set to the off position.

desdawg · July 11, 2008, 08:11:14 AM

Peter, I agree with you that the technology for CNG and LP powered vehicles has been around for years. I had an old tractor 195? something I think that came from the factory set up to run on LP gas. It burns clean and the life of the motor is typically extended considerably using that fuel.
Sewage and manure would have to be converted into a methane gas and I don't know how that technology fares in the crisis time frame. I know some work has been done in terms of extracting methane from landfills but I haven't heard much about it lately. I would think given the current energy situation that if it is viable and profitable someone would be on it. CNG and propane are still both fossil fuels and require processing, refining and transporting much like gasoline. Diesel fuel being a waste product from the refining process for gasoline should be a viable fuel, and it has always been less expensive than gasoline until recently. Have we been done in by the environmentalists again or is this just corporate greed since so many people purchased diesel powered vehicles? Or is it a combination of both factors with a little politics mixed in? Obama seems bent on keeping fuel costs high to force development of other alternatives. I already don't like that guy but that is another topic so I won't digress.

July 11, 2008, 09:53:09 AM

There are various hydrogen boosters that make hydrogen (actually hydroxy gas - Brown's gas) from water and claim to increase fuel mileage which I think is likely that it works as propane added to diesel improves combustion and greatly boosts horsepower. Works on gas too supposedly. I need to make one - most are home brew.

http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/savings.html

http://waterpoweredcar.com/hydrobooster2.html

http://waterpoweredcar.com/stan.html