Penny wise but pound foolish

MikeT · February 24, 2008, 02:59:54 PM

This is intended to a thread for those of us DIYers who try to cut corners but perhaps end up paying for it in the long run.

We already read in another thread about hanging drywall that patching pieces is not a good idea.

I know that in my building project, I started out trying to use nails that I purchased at Home Depot. They were what they had on the shelves and I bought a big bucket. Bad idea. I now am much happier with thicker shanked hot-dipped galvies.

What are some other construction items where it pays to invest in better quality?

mt

MountainDon · February 24, 2008, 06:34:31 PM

Quote from: MikeT on February 24, 2008, 02:59:54 PM
I started out trying to use nails that I purchased at Home Depot. They were what they had on the shelves

When looking at the array of nails on the shelves, keep in mind that there are "common" nails and "box" nails that are available in both plain steel, "bright" and galvanized styles. The common have thicker shanks than the box nails. Box nails do have their place. Making boxes I think.

February 24, 2008, 07:10:19 PM

In addition to the ones Don named there are also "sinkers" which are coated and usually thinner shanked than common to make them easier to drive. A #12 sinker is probly my favorite framing nail. So far framing my cabin I've used #20 common (foundation beams),#16 common (floor joists, rafters and plate to floor),#12 sinkers (wall framing and braces), #10 common (double 2x's), #8 common (floor decking) and #6 common (sheathing).

In the don't waste your money catagory I'd put any compressed paper product, particle board, cheap plumbing fixtures, single pane aluminum windows and house wrap.

CREATIVE1 · February 24, 2008, 09:56:52 PM

A very interesting thread. It really had me thinking back to experiences from 20 years ago which I hope not to repeat.
Some quick observances.

1. Don't try to deal with the big box home stores on plumbing, electric, or anything that requires expert advice. The electrical outlets, GFI's, everything I bought at the Depot messed up years ago and had to be replaced. The stuff I bought at an electrical supply company is all still working fine. Ditto plumbing--the Qist elbows, etc., that were supposed to be the new wonder pipes all broke in a freeze and damaged the walls in our all-cedar bathroom. Came from the home store, of course. And the advice there is ALL WRONG.

2. Don't buy cheap ceramic tile! Get a PEI of at least four. Porcelain tile is best--surface glaze doesn't wear out. I have actually bought a few sample tiles and whapped them against things to see how easy they break (but buy them first!)

3. Spend more time planning up front to save more time AND money when you build. Otherwise you have to make too many decisions on the spot without time to look at the options.

4. And from a book I recently read: If you are lucky enough to save money on one thing, don't go nuts and splurge on the next.

MountainDon · February 25, 2008, 03:56:52 PM

Quote from: CREATIVE1 on February 24, 2008, 09:56:52 PM
1. Don't try to deal with the big box home stores on plumbing, electric, or anything that requires expert advice. The electrical outlets, GFI's, everything I bought at the Depot messed up years ago and had to be replaced. The stuff I bought at an electrical supply company is all still working fine. Ditto plumbing--the Qist elbows, etc., that were supposed to be the new wonder pipes all broke in a freeze and damaged the walls in our all-cedar bathroom. Came from the home store, of course. And the advice there is ALL WRONG.

I don't work for a big box home improvement store and never have. But I partially disagree.

If it's expert advice, you might get lucky and be able to talk with a person who has actually worked in the trade. And you might get the high school dropout who doesn't have any more info than what's printed on the box, if he can read that.

However, the electrical and plumbing merchandise is mostly name brand. Leviton and Cooper for electrical devices like switches and receptacles. Eljer, American Standard, Moen, Delta for plumbing supplies. All are big names that you can buy from the big boxes or the professional suppliers. There are some off brands, lower quality goods available in anything you may be shopping for. Staying away from those may be a good idea, but I don't think it's fair to give a blanket condemnation on the quality of goods sold by them. Not when you're buying name brands.

Almost everything I've bought in the past 15 years as I've added on to this house has come from a chain or big box home improvement center of one flavor or another. I can not think of any switches, receptacles, faucets, etc that I've had to replace because of what might be considered shoddy goods since we've lived here. I've had an exterior hose bib freeze and break because of my own lack of foresight. That doesn't count. I've replaced an exterior photocell some years ago. That was one that came from the builder. Who knows where it came from.

But for expert advice, every time, it's a gamble. But then it's also a gamble when you cold call a plumber or electrician to come out and fix something you can't.

Just my 0.02 worth.

I do agree on the tile, you get what you pay for, more or less. Check the hardness. Porcelain is harder than ceramic; part of the benefit of that is the lower water absorption of porcelain, less than .5% as a rule. If tile is properly set, no gaps or hollows in the thinset or adhesive that usually solves most breakage problems though.

Planning a building project is extremely important as with anything. Informed decisions are usually better than those made in haste.

February 25, 2008, 05:35:59 PM

I bought all "better" grade electrical items at Home Depot, and not disappointed at all. All of my building is from the big boxes. It's just a hell of a lot easier and more efficient...and you can't beat the price if your careful (where I am anyways). I also found out the local guy who was the electric pro in the department. I used him a lot, and I called him from away from the store. That worked great.

Return policy is great too....gives you a little wiggle room.
Here in upper Midwest one of the regional big boxes is Menards. Damn they are a heck of a competitor. They were focused more on the lower end, but they have upgraded. Still can get the cheap stuff, but they have it all. The lumber was very good. Built that two story 28 X 24 and had VERT little trash lumber. I actually was a doubter regarding them, but I ended up giving them 80% of my business cause they earned it. Really expanded their lumber yards...which were full blown yards. The big billboard on the highways here is them advertising against Home Depot saying "We have REAL Lumberyards". And they do....

glenn kangiser · February 25, 2008, 05:47:30 PM

I think you have to judge each case individually. I got advice from a 20 year old or so kid at HD, on putting in natural slate. He had worked with an old pro and learned well. He also taught well so I was happy with his advice.

CREATIVE1 · February 25, 2008, 05:59:54 PM

Interesting. I guess many of you have had a better experience with "the Depot" than I did. I was mainly talking about plumbing and electric, but what about lumber? Most everyone in the trades here deals with a couple of local companies because of quality issues. But I buy appliances, ceiling fans, paint (Behr is GOOD) and other items with no problemo.

glenn kangiser · February 25, 2008, 06:02:05 PM

Lumber quality seems to vary by region and where they are supplied from is what I understand -- not all the same.

February 25, 2008, 08:06:08 PM

Quote from: CREATIVE1 on February 25, 2008, 05:59:54 PM
... I buy appliances, ceiling fans, paint (Behr is GOOD) and other items with no problemo.

That's what I was getting at; a good brand name is a good brand name, no matter where you buy it. And I use Lowe's for appliances, they've always been a dollar less on the identical item.

As for lumber, it's variable. $:-\$ A sheet of OSB from HD or Lowe's at $6.50 is the same as a sheet of OSB from the smaller, more personal private yard near our property in the mountains. Except they charge a dollar more per sheet.

ScottA · February 25, 2008, 08:42:20 PM

For years we had an issue with the plumbing fixtures comming from Home Depot not being the same quality as those sold by the supply houses. I'm convinced they where selling seconds. It was so bad for a while that refused to install any HD fixture. This problem does not seem to be as bad now but you still need check the boxes for missing parts. You are much more likely to have parts missing from a HD purchaced box than a supply house purchace.

CREATIVE1 · February 25, 2008, 09:44:05 PM

I heard from an electrician that the leviton outlets, etc. from Home Depot were inferior somehow. Don't know for sure, but the ones that don't work well anymore are all leviton and all from Home Depot.

Willy · February 25, 2008, 09:59:48 PM

Quote from: CREATIVE1 on February 25, 2008, 09:44:05 PM
I heard from a plumber that the leviton outlets, etc. from Home Depot were inferior somehow. Don't know for sure, but the ones that don't work well anymore are all leviton and all from Home Depot.

Save a few bucks on your outlets and go the regular Spec Grade route ones in the places you won't use them much. But on the counters, bathroom, vacume plugs, garage plugs ect use Nylon Front Comercial Outlets that are 3 times as good and also cost alot more. You will never need to replace them and they do not crack. Leviton is a good manufacture but it has different grades. I would stay away from cheap Eagle Brand there junk. You need a outlet that has rivets, full back screws with hold down clamps ect on them and you will pay for the quality. Mark

MikeT · February 25, 2008, 10:49:19 PM

What about circular saws? I have purchased two in the past two years, and so far I am not pleased. I bought one Ryobi and one Skil. Both were lower end models. So far both have disappointed me. Granted I am hard on tools, but these seem to have gotten out of alignment way too easy. And the angle adjustment and depth of cut adjustment on each have frustrated me. If I had to do it again, I think I would pay more for a better saw, possibly a worm drive.

mt

February 26, 2008, 12:08:19 AM

If you are used to the standard saw then go to the worm drive - they take a bit of getting used to -- feel a bit funny but they really have the muscle and hold up well. I got a used Skill one for $30 at a yard sale. Still good.

CREATIVE1 · February 26, 2008, 08:32:41 AM

Quote from: Willy on February 25, 2008, 09:59:48 PM
Quote from: CREATIVE1 on February 25, 2008, 09:44:05 PM
I heard from a plumber that the leviton outlets, etc. from Home Depot were inferior somehow. Don't know for sure, but the ones that don't work well anymore are all leviton and all from Home Depot.
Save a few bucks on your outlets and go the regular Spec Grade route ones in the places you won't use them much. But on the counters, bathroom, vacume plugs, garage plugs ect use Nylon Front Comercial Outlets that are 3 times as good and also cost alot more. You will never need to replace them and they do not crack. Leviton is a good manufacture but it has different grades. I would stay away from cheap Eagle Brand there junk. You need a outlet that has rivets, full back screws with hold down clamps ect on them and you will pay for the quality. Mark

A very good suggestion!