Don or Glenn, this is right down your alley

[peternap]

I have been reading what little I can find about Lime Ash floors.
Here's a link:
http://www.biffvernon.freeserve.co.uk/lime_ash_floors.htm

Now I'm not naive enough to think my wife will let me put this in the house but it is an interesting idea for one of the out buildings. The solar shed is nearly finished and this floor would give a considerable amount of thermal mass.

The problem is....I can't find a formula for mixing it up. I have plenty of lime...I can make ash ( I frequently make an ash out of myself ) and I have gypsum.....but how much and how to do it.

Anyone have any ideas?

[jwv]

I went through my lime file (voluminous) and all I found was this:  http://www.thelaststraw.org/backissues/year/2000.html#29  You have to order a back issue.  But, I can tellyou, lime is an amazing material.

Judy

[peternap]

That's more than I found Judy..Thanks!
I'll see about getting a back issue right away.

[Redoverfarm]

I have been reading what little I can find about Lime Ash floors.
Here's a link:
http://www.biffvernon.freeserve.co.uk/lime_ash_floors.htm

Now I'm not naive enough to think my wife will let me put this in the house but it is an interesting idea for one of the out buildings. The solar shed is nearly finished and this floor would give a considerable amount of thermal mass.

Pretty interesting. I have never heard of that before. It would sure beat a dirt floor.

[glenn kangiser]

Our best floor is a dirt floor.

30% clay 70% sand  (Our clay is about 20% aggregate -claystone - gravel etc. so we mix 50/50 mineral clay (natural porphyry clay) and sand).  Add straw - chop down both sides of the bail twine with a chain saw before cutting twine to make manageable straw lwngths.  I believe that the straw and possibly the reeds mentioned in the above link were as much for reinforcement as for support. 

Straw does not deteriorate in dry earth building products.  It gets so tough that after digging for about 20 minutes to get through about 6 inches with a six inch diameter hole, I finally gave up and went and got a rotohammer with a chisel to finish the job. 

For the floor - we mixed with water then smashed it together with the Bobcat then put it in place -- allowed to dry and crack then grouted the cracks and coated with about 4 coats of linseed oil - boiled - then after that dried we put on Concrete cure and seal.  That makes a pretty tough floor.

Concrete can be added - about 4% to 7% but it stops the shrinkage of the clay in about an hour when it sets,  leaving it softer and more easily damaged. 

I haven't tried the lime type floors but have used some in some mixes.  It seems the object above is to get the lime to react with the CO₂ and harden into limestone making a pretty hard floor.

[MountainDon]

Interesting, but it would never fly for a floor in a house/cabin around here either, Peter. 

But maybe a garage.... down the road after the cabin is done.

Another bookmark to catalog

[glenn kangiser]

Found some old Lime wall render info in my junk -- will add it here for general reference.  Some of the mixes here could give you ideas for various other recipes.

Posted by marshall bown on 10/12/03

Hello,
I am looking at trying a new render recipe and was looking for peoples ideas on this,

1st coat
1 part hydrated lime
4 part clay
5 part sand
scratched for keying in the coat

2nd coat
soak wall in hydrated lime water (1 shovel of hydrated lime to a 44 gall drum)
2 part hydrated lime
2 part clay
6 part sand
plus chopped straw or chaff
scratched for keying in the coat

3rd coat
soak wall in hydrated lime water (1 shovel of hydrated lime to a 44 gall drum)
4 part hydrated lime
1 part clay
5 part sand
plus linseed oil and chaff and straw

finish
soak wall in hydrated lime water (1 shovel of hydrated lime to a 44 gall drum)
4 parts pre soaked (hydrated lime) putty -4 bags to a 44 gal drum soaked for > two weeks
6 parts sand
----------------------------------------------
we are in healesville victoria a high rainfall area.
the idea is to increase the lime content each coat for adhesion and water proofing. We have >700mm eaves all round.
thank you for your time
marshall

[jwv]

Interesting, but it would never fly for a floor in a house/cabin around here either, Peter. 

But maybe a garage.... down the road after the cabin is done.

Another bookmark to catalog

Just curious, Don, why not?

Judy

[MountainDon]

DW has her heart set on hardwood and ceramic (or porcelain) tile. 

However, to leave no stone unturned, I shall run it by her

[peternap]

Good information Glenn. I knew if anyone would have more information it would be either you, Don or both!

[glenn kangiser]

I have more -- needed time to look -- may even have more.

Not specifically lime ash but earth floors -some lime use.

From the Peace Corps -Handbook for Building Homes of Earth - -Up John's alley...he did Peace Corps in Iran.

Chapter 13: Floors
The most desirable type of floors for an earth house is, of course, a concrete slab, a wood floor or a floor surfaced
with cement tile or ceramic tile. However, in some areas where good sand and gravel are not available for
concrete, and where wood is scarce and commercially made tile cannot be obtained, an earth floor can be
substituted. Properly compacted earth or high strength stabilized earth tile will make a reasonably durable floor.
Extra stabilizer is required if floors are to last a long time, because floors get the hardest wear of any part of the
house. Even the most primitive dwellings have some type of oil or fat worked into the soil as a stabilizer.

TYPE OF SOIL FOR EARTH FLOORS - For earth floors, use the same soil you use to build your house but add
extra stabilizer.
The floor must be able to withstand scrubbing and must be tough and durable.
Lime and portland cement make the best stabilizers. Emulsified asphalt will make good floors but the dark color
may be objectionable. Wood ashes and even animal blood have been used.

TAMPED OR RAMMED EARTH FLOORS - Before making the earth floor, it is necessary to remove all organic
topsoil, or at least down to 6 to 7 inches below the level of the finished floor. Then compact the top layer (3"-4")
of existing soil with a tamper before the floor material is placed.
In areas where swelling soils are damaging to buildings this ramming should be avoided. Untamped soil will
swell less than tamped soil.
The first layer above the existing soil is filled with about four inches of clean sandy or gravelly material. The
purpose of this material is to stop moisture that may rise up from the existing soil. The sandy material should be
well tamped to strengthen it and to keep it from settling. If the existing soil is the swelling type, use about 6 inches
of sandy material.
The floor is laid above the sandy course. Place it in two layers each about 1½ inches thick. The lower layer can
contain less stabilizer than the top because it does not get any wear. The soil should be carefully rammed into
place. Be sure the moisture content is correct. Check it using the method described in Chapter 2. When you finish
tamping, level up the area by scraping or tamping high spots.
The final finished floor layer is placed next. This layer should contain enough stabilizer to make the cured surface
difficult to scratch with a nail. This might require 2 to 3 times as much stabilizer as might be used in earth walls.
Test your mix by making small rammed earth test blocks just as you would for a rammed earth wall. After the test
blocks have cured check them for hardness and water resistance.
After tamping the top layer, smooth out any tamper marks and then cure the floor for several days.
Portland cement and lime-stabilized floors may be cured by sprinkling the floor or putting wet sacks on top of it.
At the end of the curing period, a thin portland cement slurry made from cement, water and fine sand may be
applied to the floor to seal any cracks and waterproof it. Certain oils will do the same job.
Don't walk on the floor until it is hard.

TILE FLOORS - Pressed earth tiles may do just as well as rammed earth floors. They can even look nicer,
particularly if you make tiles from several different colored soils. The CINVA-Ram or any other block-making
machine that makes; 1½ to 2" thick tiles can be used. Use enough stabilizer in the soil so the cured blocks are
difficult to scratch with a nail. Make test tiles to check the stabilizer content.
Stabilized tiles should be moist-cured for 7 days and then dried in the sun before placing them. Prepare the floor
area the same way you would for rammed earth floors. It is very important that the sandy layer be level and wellcompacted
before placing the tile. If it isn't, the floor v ill be rough and unsightly.
It is better to mortar tiles in place with a mortar of sand, portland cement and water. Carefully smooth the mortar
joints to keep from having grooves in the finished floor. Tiles can be laid without any mortar if they are placed
closely together. They may rock a little or come loose, but it won't hurt if they are put back right away.
Since cured tiles are used, the floor can be walked on as soon as the joints get hard. This will take 2-3 days. Oils
or waxes may be used to seal the top surface of the floor. Tallow has been used, and if applied hot, beeswax may
also be quite suitable.

HEATING THE HOUSE THROUGH THE FLOOR - You can heat your house by heating the floor.
This idea is used in the United States and other places in the world(Korea, for example) with tunnels under the
floor. These tunnels carry heat from a fire which is built at one of the openings.
This method of heating should not be attempted unless you have someone experienced to show you how to do it.

[desdawg]

Interesting stuff. I am a bit surprised at the mention of gypsum as this is a pretty soft material (and water soluble) to be found in a floor. I always perk right up at the mention of gypsum. I was digging out a pad in my hillside and digging raw gypsum out of the ground in the process.

[jwv]

DW has her heart set on hardwood and ceramic (or porcelain) tile. 

However, to leave no stone unturned, I shall run it by her

OK, I thought you meant it wasn't appropriate for NM.  We had an earthen floor in the studio at our previous home.  I would have had an earthen floor in this house but Mr Man said No Way!

Here's another lime resource:  http://www.battersbyornamental.com/wallerlime.htm

Judy

[MountainDon]

I guess I didn't make the reason(s) clear enough. Actually NM has a tradition of dirt floors as well as dirt walls. Adobe. Years ago when I was working for a custom builder/renovator I got to see and work in some of the old adobe walled, earthen floored homes. That is some of the really nice, now very expensive, old homes. Some of the floors and interior walls were very very nice. The main thing I didn't lie with a lot of those were the smallish windows that were originally used.

One other reason I personally won't be doing one one the cabin is the cabin is to be on a slope, and will be elevated, rather than terraced in. That could be cool, but I don't want to go there.

[glenn kangiser]

Another alternative floor.

http://www.middlepath.com.au/temple/floors.html

[jwv]

I guess I didn't make the reason(s) clear enough. Actually NM has a tradition of dirt floors as well as dirt walls. Adobe. Years ago when I was working for a custom builder/renovator I got to see and work in some of the old adobe walled, earthen floored homes. That is some of the really nice, now very expensive, old homes. Some of the floors and interior walls were very very nice. The main thing I didn't lie with a lot of those were the smallish windows that were originally used.

One other reason I personally won't be doing one one the cabin is the cabin is to be on a slope, and will be elevated, rather than terraced in. That could be cool, but I don't want to go there.

As you know AZ has the same tradition and I have seen some beautiful earthen floors.  They are "softer" than concret but it's probably an acquired taste.

Slope, that could be a problem.

Judy