CHRISTMAS

[benevolance]

Stinkerbell

woo hoo you want to spank me... where were you when I was single ...with a bible no less... well it can be a good book after all I guess

*LOL*

[benevolance]

as for my wife marrying well....I dunno about that...I have all kinds of flaws.... I want to run away and live my life out in the woods... that is my dream... I am disorganized I take on too many projects and I put off others so that I never get anything done on time and I am always scrambing to try to catch up...

I do love my wife more than anything and she comes first always in my life...I would not trade my life with her for anything though...Love my wife and I have.... wealth and peace of mind..... not so much  :-/

[StinkerBell]

I was sooooo trying not to use the word "Thump".........But alas spank was no better.


I think I will go find a nice old big KJV and smash you with it....lol

[benevolance]

smash is a better word I guess...

you should have said you wanted to hit me with a phone book I guess...

[StinkerBell]

but, but I wanted to beat The Word into ya......







but if you prefer a phone book, so be it. I am thinking one from maybe the NYC area, a big one......lol

[benevolance]

stinkerbell

the bible might as well be used for beating people... nothing has been as destructive to man in our brief history....It is of little spiritual use... Greatest lie in existence

[StinkerBell]

I am sorry ya feel that way.  I feel very much the opposite then you. Despite the vast difference in our views I still like ya.

[benevolance]

Hey it is okay that we disagree...I read somewhere once that if two people always agreed on everything that one of them would be un necessary!

I believe in God...Or a higher power...I just believe that Christianity and the bible for the most part is a crock of sh*t

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever read it?   :-/

What about it do you believe to be a lie/untrue/a crock?  

[benevolance]

well the earth in 7 days is a total crock of manure. And I have read to kill a mockingbird and when in that book they try to explain that a day could be a thousand years.... it would have to be hundreds of millions of years... The earth is billions of years old

Also in university I studied the book of Job....And there are at least 2 different versions the one in the King James Bible has Job reconcile with God.... In older versions he challenges god's authority over man and wins....The church could not have people reading that.... so it got axed


I have a problem with a book that existed orally for hundreds to thousands of years being taken as truth... as exact truth... people quote passages in the bible as if they are law....It is rubbish

the 12 apostles all wrote the gospel according to them... well the gospel is supposed to be the whole of it....why do we need 12 people to tell us who god is or what the values of christianity are....

I like the old testament better than the new testament... Christianity is a lie mostly and Jesus in my opinion never existed he is a creation who facilitates the church's needs

[StinkerBell]

I believe the 6 day plan (God took the number 7 off   ) Not sure why its hard to believe? Yet some believe that we evolved from apes.

I am curious to what older version of Job? Hebrew or Greek text? I never personally came across two different versions. Who and when was this version axed?


Orally for hundred of thousands of years is hard to take, I agree. However being a believer myself I subscribe that its only over 5 thousand years old and not hundred of thousands of years.

I do not think it rubbish, but I will not argue that you feel differently and will be respectful towards your beliefs.

[Sassy]

Peter,  have you listened to any debates that Kent Hovind has had across the nation at numerous colleges & universities?  He's very good.  I would kinda laugh at how he could talk circles around the professors & other scholars, scientists etc.  The sad thing was - Kent made perfect sense but those he debated could never really come up with any real evidence - just all this "hypothosis" or what you would call "faith in evolution" rather than faith in God.  He'd tell them - "you have a right to believe anything you want - but just don't teach your faith with my tax dollars in our public schools!"  

The Bible, although it was written over thousands of years, passed down through the generations, is really an amazing book - that was one of the reasons that brought me to faith - the wisdom, the cohesiveness, the salvation message that weaves its way like a golden thread from Genesis to Revelations.  I have read a lot, I have studied most of the major religions & nothing compares.  

Like I think I quoted before - Bob Dylan said it in a song - "you've gotta serve somebody"...

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

  well said, Sassy.

[benevolance]

sassy I serve

ever since the day I said "I do"...

The other version of Job is Hebrew text

I know that there is a difference between the bible and religion... but all religions are based on events in the bible and when man started to see things in the bible that were just wrong as we started to understand and explore the world....Religion then killed said men who made said discoveries just to protect this notion that the bible was the exact words of god and indisputable

that is why the world was flat for thousands of years and people thought the earth revolved around the sun....

If people can read a story from the old testament and reflect on their own life and see some good come of it...I am happy for them.... Truly I am. If they find peace and wisdom and contentment from studying it even better.... But we cannot treat it as anything other than a storybook....Some of the stories in the bible we know are pure fiction and came into the bible after they were published as works of fiction around the world... So this notion that it is all true and it is like God came to earth and got someone to grab a pen and pad and take down his exact thoughts..... Pure rubbish.


As for Christianity it personally to me is garbage... It is there to make people feel good about their lives...To make them love the church and not to bother questioning who leads them in their lives. Christianity basically is a endless pardon for being a bad person and breaking all the commandments.... just tell christ you believe in him and all is forgiven....

No responsibility, no more guilt, no more true atonement... just tell christ you are sorry and go back to being a lousy human being and god will be waiting for you in Heaven...Just give lots of money and beg for forgiveness again next sunday

What a crock of BS

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Perhaps YOU cannot see the Bible as anything more than a storybook, but that does not mean that I cannot.  Also, I don't think you've got a full handle on Christianity as you call it an "endless pardon for being a bad person and breaking all the commandments".  True, there is nothing you can do to earn salvation, and any amount of human "righteousness" can only amount to a heap of dung in the sight of a holy God.  If I were to be held accountable to the Law, then even if I'd kept it perfectly, I would certainly have thought about sinning, and Jesus equates lust to adultery and hatred to murder... how then could I ever be worthy of salvation?  I absolutely could not, without a pardon, without something to wash away my unrighteousness.  Christians aren't saved or righteous because of how good they behave, but because of the grace of a merciful God through Jesus Christ.  And even though you can't earn salvation, the Bible says that in order to gain life, you must lose it, and in order to be first, you must be last, and if you want to lead, you must serve... it also says that you will know people by the fruit they produce and we are commended to produce fruit in keeping with righteousness.  James says that faith without works is dead, and that faith is a  present active participle kind of faith... it implies believing and acting upon that belief, not only having a vague idea that something exists.  If people are truly believers, then their lives should be different... Paul calls believers "new creations".  If nothing changed when I got saved, what's the point?  It would then be just fire insurance... and if that's all it is, am I really saved at all?  I don't condemn you for your beliefs, Benevolance, because it makes perfect sense for you to think that Christianity is "garbage" from your point of view.  I don't want to start any feuds or anything like that, but I feel that your opinion only represents on very small aspect of Christianity and feel that it is necessary to refute it.  My husband used to feel very much like you about Christianity, so much so that he would heckle the campus preachers in college and come to Bible studies to debate and argue with the Christians and see if he could get them upset.  Times have changed, though... he's a much different person now... much different.  In fact, a new creation.    

[benevolance]

hey it is okay we disagree

if you want to bang on bible..I say go for it

i believe there is a mutual benefit for everyone in striving for better morals in thinking about mistakes and making atonement. So I encourage everyone to read a little of the bible and think about their faith and beliefs.... I went to sunday school as a child and sang in the choir and all of that....I still go to church some if you can imagine that...I do believe in a higher power....I just do not believe the bible or the idea of Christianity to be accurate.

I make mistakes all the time and I have to live with them... I get angry or doubt people... or allow myself to raise my voice or think too much of myself...But in my life my mistakes cost me...and I have to live with the outcomes from those mistakes for the rest of my life....

So that in the future it is less likely I will make the same mistake.... the problem I have with christianity is that there is no sense of guilt remorse and no attempt to temper yourself to be better in the future with unconditional forgiveness... kill someone and jesus forgives you... rape lie cheat steal and all is forgiven...

I have a big problem with that... I myself am not above making mistakes or sinning....I would rather pay a penalty for my mistakes so that I am not likely to make the same one again and again...I would rather there be atonement for my wrongdoings... with Christianity all you need to do is ask forgiveness and it is granted no matter what you did or how many times you did it in the past

That makes me want to throw up

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

IMO, Christ did the atonement on the cross... no amount of me trying to make things right could or would undo all that I've done wrong.  However, I disagree that there is no guilt/remorse/trying to do better... I struggle with guilt all the time, even though I know it is not mine to carry.  I think what you're saying is that there is often no true repentance, because repentance would necessitate forsaking a lifestyle of sin, and yet Christians seem bound up by sin constantly.  Am I hearing you right on this?  Yep, it bugs me, too.  But what I have to wonder is if we are merely believing in a God (even the demons believe that and shudder) or are we believing that what He says is true by trusting in Him to live it out in us?  

[StinkerBell]

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."

"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."

"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

[StinkerBell]

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."

"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."

"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

[StinkerBell]

I am not seeing what your saying about the Hebrew text in Job.

I am not here to debate with you, not my style, I am more of lets talk about why we have the positions we do.  I am just trying to understand where you got your information.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

I am curious about the Hebrew text of Job that you're referring to, also.  Do you read Hebrew?  I studied it in college, but never became good enough to translate smoothly, but I'm not sure what material you are referencing...

[MountainDon]

For anyone who might be interested or care, and for anyone who has access to Fox News Channel, Hannity & Colmes is having a debate on the existence of God, tonight. Short notice, but I didn't know about it until this afternoon. It'll be Christopher Hitchens, the atheist vs. Dinesh D'Souza, a Christian Believer. I like D'Souza and don't know a thing about Hitchens.

[benevolance]

Stinkerbell

I will have to dig out my old college books to find the original book of job perhaps....

a quick search on google revealed sites with different versions of several old testament books though...

[StinkerBell]

I am rather cautious what I read on the good old WWW. Anyone can place anything they want on it. However when you get the chance to go through your old college books I would like to hear from you your reference. No hurry, but when you get a chance I would appreciate it.

Also the Bible is written in many different translations for the English reader, KJV, NIV, etc for example. These are written in a different translation but does not mean the original Hebrew has been changed, just written in a way that can be understood. Plus there are instances that we apply todays definitions to Biblical words, for example the word "meek" most people today understand this word to mean, whimpy, mild, weak,, insecure. The word "meek' in Biblical context means to be in control of oneself.

[glenn kangiser]

Wow -- you people have been having fun.  Interesting read to say the least.