Joist Issues

[Heather Lee]

I have had my Armstrong laminated flooring popping up, cracking sounds and soft spots. I have had 7 installs. This is wood frame second floor.

I have since opened up some of the ceiling and nails are improperly installed into the joists along with missing nails. This would probably make deflection worse.

I spoke to Weyerhaeuser the maker of the TJI 210 joists. They said the deflection for 18' is 0.88" which is 22.352 mm

Armstrong for my laminated flooring, only allows deflection in a 10' span of 4.76 mm

So in essence the deflection is more than double of what Armstrong allows.

I now have had 7 floor installs. I have leveling compound over the entire sub-floor (OSB) with Luhn placed on top, then stapled into the OSB. My laminated flooring is still popping up, cracking sounds and large soft spots.  When it is first done, the floor is completely level, within a matter of days the issues all start over again.

My question is with deflection, should leveling compound resolve the issue. My thought is since there is ongoing movement it wouldn't resolve the issue. Which could explain the issue I'm having.

My joists are 24" on center, allowed by code.

Thank you for any help in this matter

[MountainDon]

Sorry to hear about the troubles, and 

Leveling compound will do as it's name implies, level the surface, remove imperfections by filling in.  It can not do anything about changing the deflection of a structural component like a dimensional lumber or manufactured beam/joist.

Was this structure designed by an engineer?  Did the designer know what type of flooring was to be installed on the joists? 

[Heather Lee]

 
Thank you so much for you quick reply!

That is what I was thinking, just needed someone who understands to confirm so I know what direction to go in.

The builder sold the home with choice of flooring, so they should have known. This has been to put lightly, the house from hell. I have had a worker die (Drugs), another 140 lb worker's foot went through the sub-floor. Water intrusion, mold so bad, I was hospitalized.  I didn't live in the house for almost 6 years. The complex was 22 million to build and 70 million in repairs. They have ignored the party wall support (I had necessary corrections to the little exposed) along with the flooring issues.  I'm not the only one showing the same issues. Many walked away from their homes, I unfortunately paid cash during the mortgage crisis, and refuse to sell to another victim.  Here is just one newscast of my home, it's been on TV about 50 times.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2C2Lj-plcg


FYI: CBS uncovered whistle-blowers paid off and the building department given gifts.
You have been so helpful Mountain Don, I can't thank you enough!!

[NathanS]

That builder should get sued out of existence.

As Don said the deflection cannot be solved by anything other than adding more joists or a girder midspan. The other issue, that is a relatively small one compared to what you're dealing with, is that TJI joists that span that far often create a certain vibration frequency that is very unpleasant to walk on. That can only be fixed with deeper TJI joists, which is pretty much not possible to fix at this point.

I'm guessing the missing nails in the joists would be nails missing from the joist hangers? Extra nails could be driven in. I would be extremely concerned that they did not use properly sized fasteners on the ones they did nail, though. That is a common mistake, and based on all the other problems I'm sure they didn't check what size nails they should be using.

Also I would not stay in that building in any big storm. Those panels that are not nailed in, in the video, are there for shear strength, which is absolutely imperative to have during wind events. The building could literally be blown over if there are no shear walls.

[Heather Lee]

The builder going out of business is another whole story. $$$ and politics

So far I see 3 different types of nails, two are not 10 d.

No hangers and in Florida!!  Joists are attached to the rim board then Simpson A-35 should be connected, yet to find one. From looking at the picture of it, I would think I would see at least one side.

The outside has been totally ripped apart and redone. ABC reported cost at 70 million in repairs. Your right Nathan, I would not stay here for a hurricane. I know these outside walls still aren't done right according to the workers. I still have water intrusion and mold in the garage. Finding mold in the areas I opened to look at the joists.  This house out does the movie, The Money Pit.

Here is a link to the Simpson A35:  https://www.strongtie.com/framinganglesandplates_anglesandplates/ltp4-ltp5-a34-a35_productgroup_wcc/p/ltp4.ltp5.a34.a35   Wouldn't you see it on the joist?

[NathanS]

If they are nailed to a rim joist, that should mean the joists are bearing on a plate - the top of the wall below, right? That is good. I was worried those joists were fastened with actual hangers. That's to say they were not resting on anything.

It sounds like you have been doing your homework on the TJI reading through the Weyerhaeuser manual? To be fair, my TJI knowledge is limited, I knew enough to know I didn't want to use them in my house (not to say there's anything wrong with them). It wouldn't surprise me if they need some kind of blocking or fastener to keep them from rotating. There are some other posters here that may be able to answer better than me.

It is possible that it was adequate to just nail through the rim board into the I joist. If that is the case then you wouldn't be able to see the nails.

[Heather Lee]

 They used blocking that are nailed into the sides of the I of the beam, or at least should be. The building plans call for A35, but I question if they are there.

I never knew anything about construction, forced to research and learn. The joists and leveling compound had me for a loop. I've read and talked with Weyerhaeuser. They are vague, the builder is suing the company that distributes their product, along with Hurri Bolts and everyone else. In my opinion insurance fraud.  So I searched and found your site 

I posted a few pictures temporally on this page. My site is being redone:    ://kbhomedisaster.com/kb-home-legal-troubles/

[NathanS]

Posters here can certainly make some observations on how they'd do things, I'm not sure you will get any 'answers,' though.

I can tell you if I had an engineer design my plans, and he or she called for a bracket, you can be sure I'd put it there. That opens another can of worms though, isn't the engineer supposed to inspect the building as it goes up? I know for all the money an engineer costs, I'd be talking to them as I was building.

That is wild they are trying to sue their distributors. "I didn't know how to use this product, so I just winged it, and it's your fault."

[Heather Lee]

Now that I understand deflection and leveling compound won't resolve, that helps a lot. Now for these A35's

They have a practice of suing. They filed suit against 3 air conditioning companies, but told us we had the right ones. Can't have it both ways. One already settled and the other two were dropped very quickly. I'm contacting everyone they are suing, as one company said, it's like Christmas as I have all the pictures and documents along with the whistle-blowers paid off. Just for our complex you can see how many companies they are suing. Who over sees the work??  https://www.manateeclerk.org/PublicRecords/CourtRecordsSearch/tabid/57/ctl/detail/mid/484/Default.aspx?enc=MTc2NzI5OA%3d%3d-%2bcAf36NM63Y%3d

In my opinion (And many others) this is insurance fraud which costs us, the consumers in the long run.

[Don_P]

 They are pretty well known in the industry, I'm sorry for your problems. You do need good legal representation and well respected engineers on their team. I would have the lawyers start that search through your land grant university's engineering department. Contractors are fine for opinions on TV and as expert testimony but you will need registered design professionals in court. Watch yourself venting on the net and elsewhere in public, the builder can sue you, follow counsel's advice there. As these things unfold the builder's lawyers will look for any, and the easiest, ways to protect their client or mitigate damage, everyone gets sued, expect to see even the taco truck driver in court. They have much more experience in that arena than you. Right or wrong, choose your battles. There are builders here that would make them look wonderful.

Your initial post described a deflection problem. This is a serviceability issue rather than a strength/safety problem, do understand the difference as you put your first foot forward in court, it is important. The builder has the right to repair, you do not necessarily have to be happy with the repair. For instance, I'm not happy with those floors when installed perfectly. I've had clients that love them. To put it another way, I could have 100 installs for me personally and would never be happy, that doesn't mean someone is at fault, it means I have unrealistic expectations from those materials.

The code minimum for floor deflection is l/360, using pen and paper quickly I just came up with .6" max deflection at 18' span. If the joist deflects more than that at design load then there is probably a code issue in design. Probably... there are more ways to juice the numbers. Some finishes require better than code minimums to perform satisfactorily. Yes, this should have been considered in designing the floor, and may have been. We don't have all the information.

Aside, "code" is shorthand for codified (written) law. If you kill the builder you are violating a state code that prohibits murder. Just pointing out that "codes" are simply written laws. I have mixed civil and criminal codes there  . When I want to know a law I look to, in my case, "The Code of Virginia". There I will find all the laws of my state. The building code is one section of that. I have had to wander into other sections at times to find codes that pertain to building but are not in that section, it was written by lawyers.

The missing ties and nailing are more important structural deficiencies from a life safety perspective. If the plans or codes call for detailing that is missing, then you have a strong case from a life safety rather than a serviceability view. You are in danger not just unhappy. Metal detectors, x-ray and thermal imaging are ways to non destructively see inside a finished wall. Again, they have a right to repair, you will probably not be happy with the repair they come up with. You or your engineer may propose a solution that is mutually agreeable as part of the suit.

Very, very rarely does an engineer inspect work. They provide design not enforcement, the inspector checks that I have adhered to that design. There are situations where this is outside of the inspectors skills and a "special inspector" performs that function, usually an engineer, we're pretty much outside of residential here.

Probably more than y'all wanted to hear, think carefully before posting, this is probably not the best place for this discussion.

[John Raabe]

What a mess! And at such a large scale. Looks like this will be a long nasty legal battle.  It seems there are some well documented photos and expert opinions that can be used in that effort. You have some good media reporting being done as well.

We should all be careful about expressing opinions on what we think should be done to attempt repairs. This is a forum for and about owner built homes. We are all amateurs here and we are especially unfamiliar with large scale development projects. I would hate to have anyone on the forum start getting calls from lawyers.

Heather Lee, I am very sympathetic to your predicament and wish you a change of luck on this matter. You have enough house woes there to last a lifetime! It seems like there are other parties in the development who could come together in a joint or class action suit.

The right lawyer needs to be found - in my purely non-professional opinion.