Setting toilet height on sub-floor?

MushCreek · February 13, 2013, 05:11:51 PM

Things I never thought about...... I'm getting ready to do my rough plumbing, and of course, the finished floor isn't in yet. How do you set the toilet flange to the right height with only a sub-floor? Set a piece of plywood the approximate distance as a shim? Just set the flange on the sub-floor, and have the finished floor butt up to the base of the toilet? I don't even know what I'm going to use for the bathroom floor yet. Thoughts?

Redoverfarm · February 13, 2013, 05:25:18 PM

Quote from: MushCreek on February 13, 2013, 05:11:51 PM
Things I never thought about...... I'm getting ready to do my rough plumbing, and of course, the finished floor isn't in yet. How do you set the toilet flange to the right height with only a sub-floor? Set a piece of plywood the approximate distance as a shim? Just set the flange on the sub-floor, and have the finished floor butt up to the base of the toilet? I don't even know what I'm going to use for the bathroom floor yet. Thoughts?

Any reason that you have to installed it right now. You can go ahead and cut/drill for the flange but not glue up the pipe to the flange until you are a little closer. You can line up your pipe ( T or Elbow) in your line (dry fit) and just not connect the flange . Then when it comes time to permanently install just set your flange on your finished floor and make your connection pipe to the right length. You can either lay your finished floor underneath the flange and cutting/drilling out to match your subfloor hole or lay your finished floor up to the hole in your subfloor either way it will be under the flange and at the right heigth. This is an area that causes problems when you try to do things that are not ready to be done. End up with the flange being set to low and will not seal off or the flange is set to high and you have to shim around the commode base to make it right.

I found some flanges that are adjustable. Fool proof in that you can swivel the ring to the right position for bolting pattern even when it is glued up. Never saw them before my cabin build. The center of the flange needs to be 12" from the back wall or where the tank is. The bolting pattern measured on both sides of the flange will make it square if they are the same distance from the wall. It is important that if your walls are not finished to include the thickness of that wall when measuring. I believe it is suppose to be like 15" from the side walls. But it never fails where I want to put my drains there is always a floor joist inthe way and I have to shift things not to comprimise by floor system.

February 14, 2013, 05:31:55 AM

We set them right on the sub floor , the wax rings take can of any gap.

Most plumbers use two wax rings , one just wax the other one has a rubber boot attached to the wax ring . Make sure they are warm , set near a heat duct or by the wood stove , warm not "HOT" so the wax isn't melting but is nice and soft , put the wax ring on the flange , then insert the rubber boot wax ring on top of the first , lift toilet over flange and attempt to set it straight down , use you body weight to smush the toilet firmly down onto the wax rings, then tighten the two flange bolts I should have told you to have put in place before the rings went down

.

Tighten the flange bolts firmly, do not go nuts with the tightening and crack the porcelain base on the toilet.

dablack · February 14, 2013, 10:29:48 AM

I can NOT stand when flooring buts up baseboards or toilets. I have tiled two whole houses and I always pull up the toilets and baseboards. So I'm lifting up the toilets by at least 7/16". I just pick up one of the extra thick wax rings. No big deal. Obviously, I'm not moving the flange.

So, I'm with PEG. Just attach to the subfloor.

I'm close to the same place in my build and since I'm planning on putting in thick wood flooring, I'm thinking I will probably shim up the flange a 1/2", so when I do pull the johns later to put down the wood flooring, it won't be that big of a change.

Austin

JRR · February 14, 2013, 10:48:17 AM

As pointed out, there are adjustable flanges available now ... so height is not so constraining as it once was. But the flange/drain center to wall distance is very important. I live in an old house built and plumbed right after WWII ... and the toilet dimensions back then were different from different manufacturers ... not as much standardization as now. I would like to replace some of the old toilet fixtures, but can't find any new ones that will fit my drain-to-wall dimensions. My drain is too close to the wall by about 2", if I remember correctly ... so much so, that the drains would have to be relocated ... a lot of work to be able to use new fixtures. So, I would make sure that dimension is ample ... a little too much can be taken care of by spacers behind the tank.

My preference is wall mounted toilets and urinals. Different problems to be resolved in drain planning, but it makes for a much "cleaner" floor. Tiles are easier to manage and I find the results more pleasing. You see them a lot in commercial buildings and hospitals. More up-front planning and effort ... but good long term results, I think.

February 14, 2013, 11:29:04 AM

Quote from: JRR on February 14, 2013, 10:48:17 AM
As pointed out, there are adjustable flanges available now ... so height is not so constraining as it once was. But the flange/drain center to wall distance is very important. I live in an old house built and plumbed right after WWII ... and the toilet dimensions back then were different from different manufacturers ... not as much standardization as now. I would like to replace some of the old toilet fixtures, but can't find any new ones that will fit my drain-to-wall dimensions. My drain is too close to the wall by about 2", if I remember correctly ... so much so, that the drains would have to be relocated ... a lot of work to be able to use new fixtures. So, I would make sure that dimension is ample ... a little too much can be taken care of by spacers behind the tank.

My preference is wall mounted toilets and urinals. Different problems to be resolved in drain planning, but it makes for a much "cleaner" floor. Tiles are easier to manage and I find the results more pleasing. You see them a lot in commercial buildings and hospitals. More up-front planning and effort ... but good long term results, I think.

JRR you might look into these to modernize your toilet.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=offset+toilet+flange&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4TSNA_enUS401US438&q=offset+toilet+flange&gs_l=hp..0.0l5.0.0.0.10147...........0.vXIxlPqeZt8

MushCreek · February 14, 2013, 04:00:44 PM

The rest of the house will be 3/4" higher for the finished floor, so the bathroom should be similar. I'll at least do tile, with maybe a backerboard to make the height the same as the rest of the house. Sounds like it's my choice, since I could just use a thicker ring (or two). The reason I asked is that I assumed that the toilet flange would be part of the rough plumbing inspection, and of course it is way before the final floor finish.

Somewhere I've seen a modern toilet with only a 10" set-back, specifically for retrofitting older houses. Can't remember where I saw it, though. I know what you mean about working around floor trusses; the original spot for my toilet was exactly over a joist. The master bath is now bigger, and the foyer smaller. Here's the link for a 10" toilet: www.americanstandard-us.com/toilets/cadet-round-front-10-inch-rough-in-toilet/

Redoverfarm · February 14, 2013, 04:10:15 PM

With tile I would probably set the flange on the CBB. It is really hard to drill to mount it in tile.

JRR · February 14, 2013, 05:31:07 PM

Thanks folks! Now I have two solutions for replacing the old toilets.

February 14, 2013, 07:17:34 PM

I wouldn't try to drill the tile. What I've done in older houses is remove the toilet, tile up to (approximately) the flange, then seat the toilet with a new wax ring and caulk underneath.

My wife fell in love with a smooth-sided toilet at HD one day. It is nice- the trap is hidden behind a double wall, so the sides are nice and smooth. What a chore to install, though. First, it weighs 120 lbs. Then, you can't see the bolt holes, so you are trying to guide this very heavy toilet in place more or less blind. After ruining a couple wax rings, I drew the outline and bolt locations on the floor to help locate it. Then, you have to put the nuts on through a small hole. I may have to lie and tell here that they don't make them anymore.

While on the topic, the company I used to work for manufactures a new bolt and cap system. The bolt is reinforced nylon, and is designed to lock on to the flange with a thin jam nut, so they don't flop around while you're trying to place the toilet. The caps thread on so they don't fall off when mopping around the toilet. We were amazed how strong a nylon bolt could be, in some cases stronger than the metal ones that come with a toilet. Quality control included periodically torque testing to make sure the bolts were strong enough. We found that soaking them in water significantly increased the strength. I think the system is called Smart Bolt and Smart Cap. I have no idea if the idea ever caught on, but I got a lifetime supply as a parting gift when I retired.

Redoverfarm · February 14, 2013, 07:35:22 PM

Most of the plumbers I have talked frown about caulking around the toilet. It doesn't let you know if a leak occurs as the leaking water drains back and into the subfloor unnoticed. Eventually rot will occur to the underlying structure. So I guess with it not caulked you will see the water seeping onto the floor and alert you that a leak is occuring. Makes sense I guess.

John Raabe · February 14, 2013, 09:05:16 PM

Just had a recently reset toilet on the second floor overflow the bowl and run water down into the ceiling below. It was not caulked. In that case it would have been better to have the joint puttied or caulked. I will soon be patching drywall (again!)

MushCreek · February 15, 2013, 06:32:19 AM

If you don't caulk, how do you keep the toilet from rocking on an uneven floor?

Don_P · February 15, 2013, 09:44:41 AM

I've had inspectors require that the toilet be caulked to prevent cleanup flooding from agressive mopping, etc. Generally commercial but I've been called on it in residential. The compromise has been to not caulk the rear to allow a leak to hopefully hit the floor and to caulk the rest to keep water from getting under the toilet while cleaning.

and then my next house had carpeted baths

The wax rings also come in several thicknesses and I have used the 10" rough in toilet, worked well. I'd like to say it was old work but it was a layout oops I made in a basement slab.