Author Topic: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)  (Read 728281 times)

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Oljarhead

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Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« on: September 21, 2009, 12:53:09 PM »
So I've been looking at owner built cabins here for a while (maybe a year or more?) and after my wife and I bought a piece of land (20 acres) we decided it was time to get busy!  I ordered the Enchilada plans with the intent of building all of the 3 little houses (using decks to connect some and having some independently stationed around the property) as well as the Victorian (I think that's the one -- where you combine the 3 into one) but since you have to start somewhere, we started with the 14x24 near the well.

This will make for a nice vacation spot and maybe someday we'll complete the family get-away (we have 5 kids and figure they will all want a small cabin).

Our first step, after buying the land was to decide on what should be done with access.  The easement road is pretty steep and rough so we had a friend pull a small excavator to the property and work on the easement.  It's now smoother and wider so will be easier to get trailers of gear to our spot.  However, you can't get here with a trailer in tow unless you've got a good 4 wheel drive!  But the views....


A look from up top.


Our driveway.


Fixing the easement

The drive is about 5 hours (from our home) so it's a bit of a haul to make every weekend, but that's what I'm trying to do as I want to get the cabin shell built and closed in before it snows!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 07:46:05 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 01:01:39 PM »
Once the easement work was completed as well as foundation trenches (we're using post and pier but figured the excavator would make easier work of getting down into the dirt since this is REALLY rocky ground), we trucked up the first components of the foundation - pavers and PT lumber -- and various camping/framing etc items that we might need.  The plan was to go the next day to the nearest Home Depot (an hour away) and get the rest of the supplies there or locally (nearest town is 30 minutes away).  However, my jeep had some issues and then the weather turned on us so all we managed was to drop off the supplies, trailer and tools and leave for another day.


Rain, hail, wind, lightning -- the works!  No cabin work this weekend!

And of course, the Jeep decided to overheat too!  So I had to do some major work on it before coming back.


I ended up replacing the water pump, fan clutch, fan relay and radiator as well as a u-joint.   Yes access to our little cabin in the woods isn't exactly a Sunday drive :P
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:00:51 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 01:08:37 PM »

Jeep fixed and the weather much better we return to get started in earnest!  Here you can see the pier blocks in the trenches.  We had to work to get them level and set right.

Bearing in mind that I have framing experience (used to frame condo's some 17 years ago) I will admit that impatience does NOT pay off!  Squaring these on this ground was tough and time consuming but should pay off.


We then started making the beams.  I bought 2 14 footers and 2 10 footers for each beam.  The idea was to not have to cut anything and since you need a 4 foot overlap, well, hell, this ought to work right?

Laying the 2x8x14 down we glued it up, placed a 7 1/2" strip of 8' ply on it and then glued that and dropped the 2x8x10 on top.  Nailed it up, and then set the next 2x8x14 on glued up ply and nailed and then rolled.

The whole process didn't take too long since we had a good work surface in the ATV trailer :)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:01:10 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 01:33:27 PM »


Once the first beam was completed we mounted it and leveled it on the posts.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:01:26 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2009, 02:10:36 PM »

We got the first beam installed and began working on the next.

I set the highest post of this beam at 20 inches -- not really thinking straight I guess -- as I wanted a 24 inch crawl space at a minimum.  What I hadn't thought of was the grade overall but lucked out in the end!

Basically I wanted 18-24 inches of crawl space with closer to 24 at the lowest end of the space.  The idea being that I'm a big guy and that I want to install a self composting toilet below the cabin so will need a high side -- as you can see, I got it :)


We got both beams installed and fairly level and square.  Squaring the big beams on piers and posts in this terrain was a bear!  We came within 1/4 inch and then finally with a little creativity got it to exact (as we measured) and called it a day -- only to find that we'd left two piers off level and one post off level -- we'll have to fix those when we go back to work on the floor!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:01:44 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2009, 02:17:59 PM »
I should add that the trailer (Evolution One by fleetwood) and camper really make this a lot easier!  We arrive Friday night, pop up our weekend home and crash for a nights rest.  Then get up in the AM and can begin working after coffee and breakfast :)


Our camp site


The view from my chair while drinking coffee -- this is to the south and the direction the cabin windows in the kitchen and 'living' room will look :)


My son got dinner for us :)  We love Grouse!

We've got a well so lots of water on site and using 'Luggable Loo's' and 'porta pots' with lots of digester will get us buy until the cabin is ready for the composter :)

Also, we won't be living here (unless TSHTF).  It's just our hide-away from the world :)  and we love it!


The Road Warrior -- our 1998 Jeep Cherokee with LOTS of work and upgrades!  

One thing that I keep thinking about is all the things we forget and what this takes:

1.  Get twice as many nails as you think you need.
2.  Plan to spend money on your car/truck etc if it isn't new!
3.  5 hour drives are long, don't forget anything!

Cheers
Erik

« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:02:04 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2009, 02:24:49 PM »
Now for the questions:

First note:  It's been a long time since I was framing (17 years) so my memory is failing...

1.  The metal ties from the posts to the beams:  do we need to put nails in EVERY hole provided?  I didn't think so but realized that maybe it's important??

2.  Nailing the beams off every 6 inches on BOTH sides seems excessive to me.  Is it?  I did 12 and 12 alternating so it's 6" spacing on opposite sides (nails, then 6 inches to opposite side nails, then nails again etc etc).

3.  Square of the beams:  I'm thinking that the beams have to be perfectly square becuase the floor is built directly on top of them.  You don't want a parallelogram after all!  Am I wrong?

4.  Plans for the 14x24 call for 2x6 floor joists.  Does this matter if using 2x6 walls?  Or should the joists go to 2x8 when using 2x6 walls?

5.  Plans call for 2x6 roof rafters but later mention 2x12's in heavy snow load areas.  I don't consider WA State a heavy snow load state (not in an area with only 15 inches of rain anyway) but am wondering about the comment as it pertained to higher walls (found in the section on using 12 foot walls).

6.  I plan to use 10 foot wall studs (if I can find them in 2x6) and am wondering if I should change anything specifically becuase of this -- I don't think so but wanted to check.

Thanks!
Erik
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:02:24 PM by MountainDon »

Offline ScottA

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2009, 03:03:44 PM »
1. I doubt it would matter since your piers won't hold the cabin down anyway. The extra holes would be to prevent uplift if required by code.

2. I'd nail them every 16" 2 rows staggered top and bottom so you end up with a nail every 8". If it's on the plans as every 6" then do it.

3. Get them close. You can play with the joists alittle if needed.

4. 2x6 should be ok.

5. Size the rafters based on local snow load. Find out what it is.

6. will give you less loft area.


Nice spot.  :)

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2009, 03:16:33 PM »
1. I doubt it would matter since your piers won't hold the cabin down anyway. The extra holes would be to prevent uplift if required by code.

Thanks :)  I'm trying to keep this cabin close to code in case I, um, er, forget to permit changing the deck I just built into a cabin ;) -- actually no one in the area has anything remotely close to code much less permitted.  But that's another story.
Quote
2. I'd nail them every 16" 2 rows staggered top and bottom so you end up with a nail every 8". If it's on the plans as every 6" then do it.

I've done every 12" on each side which means there are 3 1/4" galvies every 6"  just not every 6" on each side.  The plans only show this in one section as an afterthought so perhaps that's why the confusion -- there was no way I could get a 4x8x24 beam out there!
Quote
3. Get them close. You can play with the joists alittle if needed.
Good point...I guess 1/4" isn't going to be an issue but 1 1/2" would be.
Quote
4. 2x6 should be ok.
Good -- and I figured as much since they don't really carry anything anyway -- that's what the beams are for.
Quote
5. Size the rafters based on local snow load. Find out what it is.
Probably better check that -- I was thinking that with a 12x12 pitch it wouldn't matter much anyway!  However, I once replaced a roof on a house that someone built in the 60's or 70
s with 2x4 rafters!  Yikes those things sagged!

Quote
6. will give you less loft area.
Why?  I figure it will give MORE loft area.  After all, you get 2 feet of straight wall then -- I might not have been clear though.  I mean to say I'm going to use 10 foot studs and put the loft at 8 feet thereby increasing the height by 2 feet.

Quote
Nice spot.  :)
Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:02:39 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2009, 03:32:55 PM »
Some notes on our plans.

I did a lot of research and determined the best layout was to set the cabin with the long axis facing North and South.  This gives more sunlight exposure to the roof providing better winter heat and light in the windows.  This also means that we will put the entrance on the south wall (less icing and snow in the winter) and if we want access to a deck in the rear we'll have to have two doors (yes we're going to do that also).

We plan to deck around the entire cabin with one extended deck of at least 12'x12'.

Our plan is to be 100% off grid and this place makes it easy since there isn't any 'grid' around :) ;)

We'll install a self composting toilet (I've settled on two possibilities) and a Quadfire wood stove.

Also, the cabin will be built to match any codes provided they aren't insane (like demanding a septic system be installed which won't be used, will sour in a few years and then have to be replaced which would be both bad for the environment and costly -- seems the state doesn't understand that if you have a composting toilet and no septic tank it's actually better for the environment -- also, grey water can be run into a large settling tank and then used to water trees.  The state can't seem to conceive that a hunting cabin could be used in this fashion).

Anyway, I digress!  I'll post some links to the things I plan to use at the little cabin in the woods :)

http://www.sun-mar.com/prod_flush_cent2_acdc.html
Sun Mar composter -- serious toilet that will compost human waste which can then be placed in a compost pile -- incidentally there is so much cow manure on the property that I'd be more worried about it then a few humans visiting once ever few weeks/months!

http://thenaturalhome.com/greywater.html
Grey water system -- very good for many uses but in our case with limited time at the cabin this should be perfect :)

http://www.allowsolutions.com/naturesheadproducts.html
Another composter I've thought about.  A little less money (ok a lot) but also does less -- may be better for the short stays though.

http://www.countryplans.com/nash.html
And of course, the real inspiration for my plans and efforts!  These folks (as well as so many others) sharing their story really got me motivated!  THANKS!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:02:56 PM by MountainDon »

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2009, 03:37:17 PM »
Here's my comments I was typing as the above was being entered.

1. Depends on the plates. Those look like "generic" use plates. IF they were the special post cap or post to bean Simpson things then, yes all nail holes would have to be filled.

2. The Southern Pine Council recommends many fewer nails; don't recall the exact number but it'd at least 126" spacing. More nails is not bad.

3. Ideally you should have the beams exactly square. It may be too late now, but the way I achieved that was to build the beams over length. After securing them in place I laid out the exact measurements and trimmed the beams to length.

4. Depends on the spacing of the joists. What is the exact distance between your beams? You can use the joist sizer to check how different sizes spec out. Remember if you are close to the maximum span on any size joist you floor may be springier than you really like. Deeper joists also allow for more insulation.

http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp

5. You can use the above tool to size rafters and add in different snow loads. 2x6 may work, but if you are building a loft into the design think about insulation. 2x6 doesn't allow for much insulation in the roof. I have an anecdotal (not scientific) comment on that. I'm going to be posting it later today. It'll be in my cabin topic.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.msg97704#msg97704

6. You should be able to find them, at least around here they are available. Do you mean to use the 10 footers but have the loft floor at 8 eet above the main floor, in order to increase headroom in the loft? You would then inset ledgers in the 10 foot studs at the 8 foot mark.  







Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2009, 03:40:47 PM »

... set the cabin with the long axis facing North and South. 

I get confused easy.  :-[  Does that mean the long walls will be on the north and south? ???
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2009, 03:43:45 PM »
Composting toilet. We have a Sun-Mar. It works fine some of the year. Keep in mind that composting stops dead at about 50 - 55 degrees F (10 - 13 C).


% gallon bucket with a tight fitting seat/lid may be better depending on the temperatures.

The nice thin g about a Sun-Mar is they handles liquids with no user intervention.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline ScottA

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2009, 03:45:30 PM »

Quote
6. will give you less loft area.
Why?  I figure it will give MORE loft area.  After all, you get 2 feet of straight wall then -- I might not have been clear though.  I mean to say I'm going to use 10 foot studs and put the loft at 8 feet thereby increasing the height by 2 feet.

I guess I was confused. I understood 12' walls in the plans.

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2009, 04:00:31 PM »
Here's my comments I was typing as the above was being entered.

1. Depends on the plates. Those look like "generic" use plates. IF they were the special post cap or post to bean Simpson things then, yes all nail holes would have to be filled.

2. The Southern Pine Council recommends many fewer nails; don't recall the exact number but it'd at least 126" spacing. More nails is not bad.

3. Ideally you should have the beams exactly square. It may be too late now, but the way I achieved that was to build the beams over length. After securing them in place I laid out the exact measurements and trimmed the beams to length.

4. Depends on the spacing of the joists. What is the exact distance between your beams? You can use the joist sizer to check how different sizes spec out. Remember if you are close to the maximum span on any size joist you floor may be springier than you really like. Deeper joists also allow for more insulation.

http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp

5. You can use the above tool to size rafters and add in different snow loads. 2x6 may work, but if you are building a loft into the design think about insulation. 2x6 doesn't allow for much insulation in the roof. I have an anecdotal (not scientific) comment on that. I'm going to be posting it later today. It'll be in my cabin topic.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.msg97704#msg97704

6. You should be able to find them, at least around here they are available. Do you mean to use the 10 footers but have the loft floor at 8 eet above the main floor, in order to increase headroom in the loft? You would then inset ledgers in the 10 foot studs at the 8 foot mark.  


Thanks Much!

1.  Generic plates -- probably doesn't hurt to nail more and I may yet -- not the cap types as I decided those were too expensive for such a small project.

2.  126"?  Do you mean 12" or 6" or 12 1/2" hehe

3.  Good points on the beams!  Mine are damn near perfect when I left, so I'm not worried I just wanted to comment on it as it was something I had to really work at...it's done now though :)

4.  Spacing is per plans at 9'8"

5.  Good point on the insulation.  I was actually thinking of using 2x8's but one thing to bear in mind is that a 400-500 sq foot cabin will be WAY overheated with a small wood stove.

6.  Yes exactly.

Thanks!

« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:03:15 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2009, 04:03:09 PM »

... set the cabin with the long axis facing North and South.  

I get confused easy.  :-[  Does that mean the long walls will be on the north and south? ???

It's ok I'm always confused! ;)

yes, the long walls.  You see, I was debating this a lot becuase it can get hot here and I didn't want to present a large area for the sun to heat up until I began to consider the maunder minimum and what approaching that could mean (maunder minimum was at the peak of the little ice age and associated with colder temperatures and we're closing in on it again).  So, changed my mind and decided that while it may be warm in the summer -- indeed hot -- I'd rather have more solar heat in the winter.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:03:30 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2009, 04:04:54 PM »
Composting toilet. We have a Sun-Mar. It works fine some of the year. Keep in mind that composting stops dead at about 50 - 55 degrees F (10 - 13 C).


% gallon bucket with a tight fitting seat/lid may be better depending on the temperatures.

The nice thin g about a Sun-Mar is they handles liquids with no user intervention.

I've heard that and was wondering what the impact of 25 -45 degree nights would be if the day time temps rose about 65-75 degrees?  Which is common here.

I can enclose the unit and keep it reasonably warm during cold times on the piece and can put in a privy for really cold weather I suppose but in truth we won't live here so it's unlikely we'll be there too often in the very cold weather.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:03:51 PM by MountainDon »

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2009, 04:05:15 PM »
2. Oops. Typo.   16" is what I meant


4.  Depends on how stiff you want the floor to be.   2x6's are on the edge of going up to 2x8.




Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2009, 04:06:52 PM »

Quote
6. will give you less loft area.
Why?  I figure it will give MORE loft area.  After all, you get 2 feet of straight wall then -- I might not have been clear though.  I mean to say I'm going to use 10 foot studs and put the loft at 8 feet thereby increasing the height by 2 feet.

I guess I was confused. I understood 12' walls in the plans.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  The plans have an addition that shows 12 foot walls to give 4 feet more in the loft but then make the statement about 2x12 rafters and 2x6's....I want to use 10 foot studs like the owner built in the link I left and was just curious about the difference -- not something that's in the plans but I'd noticed at least two others did this and it seems to work nicely.

Thanks
Erik
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:04:06 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2009, 04:09:00 PM »
2. Oops. Typo.   16" is what I meant


4.  Depends on how stiff you want the floor to be.   2x6's are on the edge of going up to 2x8.


Thanks.  So a little flex in the 2x6 floor do to the 9'8" span between beams?  I'm a 260lbs jarhead and plan to have a wood stove (read heavy) as well as other stuff...is it prudent to assume that the 8" joists would be safer?

They certainly will provide better floor insulation (more important to me then the roof actually).
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:04:20 PM by MountainDon »

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2009, 04:13:19 PM »
I should also note that I'm learning a LOT all over again and you folks have been great!  Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:11:28 PM by MountainDon »

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2009, 04:30:16 PM »
Myself, I'd go 2x8, 16" OC.   OMMV   :D
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2009, 04:35:11 PM »
Myself, I'd go 2x8, 16" OC.   OMMV   :D

I'm kinda thinking that way -- then with 2x6 walls and 2x8 rafters I'll have good insulation which should help with summer heat (I'm not worried AT ALL about winter!  I lived in a 600 sq foot cabin in Ucluelet BC one year and the little wood stove kept it roasting that even with 2 feet of snow on the ground I had to open the loft window to keep from roasting to death!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:11:43 PM by MountainDon »

Offline devildog

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2009, 06:23:06 PM »
OORAHHHHHHHH! emcvay, and  w*. Great job on your project. you mmove fast.
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.
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Oljarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2009, 11:45:03 PM »
Oooorah Devildog :)  You must have noticed the cover and the Jeep ;)

And thanks!  Not fast enough for me though!  But the 4 1/2 drive each way does slow us down!  They boys also comment that this old Marine and Sgt is a task master!  Semper Fi!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 08:12:02 PM by MountainDon »