14x24 Little House Project (1.5 story) in Southern New York State

[pericles]

My wife and I fell in love with a friend's cabin in Maryland about a year ago.  When we asked about it, our friend explained that the cabin had been built out of a kit from Sears Roebuck's mail order catalog fifty or sixty years ago.  I imagined that I could probably put up something similar and for some reason my wife believed me, and we started looking for land to build on.  After ten months of hunting, we'll be closing on a property in New York just across the Pennsylvania border in two weeks.

The land is 13 acres, entirely wooded except for a few natural clearings, and a stream that runs through it.  Years and years ago it belonged to a Christmas tree farm, so there are even rows of tall pine trees, a few groves of deciduous trees (oak, maple, and elm), and little or no brush.  There's a slight grade - a rise of 50 feet over 690 - but plenty of level spots to build, some of which are already naturally cleared!  We're very excited to start building, as soon as the permits come in, (or maybe even a little earlier!)

(I know Glenn... I was the one who told you to be careful of zoning and building codes, but I have to admit that the view is a little different now that I'm so close to breaking ground!  Surely there's no crime in digging holes in the ground?  Maybe I can just get the piers into place while I wait for approval?)

I took some pictures with my camera phone while we were up.  The New Hampshire cabin post is and has been so detailed and helpful that I'd like to try to do the same; my thread will be helpful in the sense that it will show readers what not to do!

Here are some of the Christmas trees that survived too long to fit in my living-room back in Philadelphia


The stream, at it's lowest ebb of the year.  We're considering (years and years in the future) excavating a pond to be fed by the stream.


More pines


Yet more pines...


Here's our realtor, and the clearing we were considering building in.  We'd have to knock down a few trees, but not many and it's level, so that's a help.


I don't hunt, but my brother in law does and he'll appreciate the game animals up here.  We saw a couple hundred prints like this one, and a lot of rubbings and droppings.  There's a blind built into a tree with a rustic ladder up to it where my brother in law will be hanging out.  We also startled a pheasant off the ground, and ran across a lot of turkey prints.  Thanksgiving dinner!


My wife and our realtor fording the stream.  It's at a low ebb now, but it'll get a lot higher during thaws and rains.  I'm really looking forward to building bridges over it.


Some scrub to clear out.  I always wondered why the president spends so much time clearing brush on the Crawford Ranch; I guess I'll be finding out.


You can really see the line of trees.  I guess it detracts from the wilderness quality of the area, but when you're in them it feels like a scene out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.  Very quiet and spooky.


Are you getting the feeling that there are a lot of pine trees?


Before we send in a finalized plan and project design, we have a few questions for the group:

• We're building the 14x24 Little House with 15 "block piers."  (6 on the sides, and 3 in the middle to support an internal load bearing wall giving support to the loft.)  I'm told the frost depth is about 8", maybe as much as 12".  If I dug down 15" or so, and mix my own concrete, what is the cheapest pier design for me, and what's a ball-park estimate about how much I should be spending?
• I'm also a little bit concerned about the posts.  Could I, consistent with your previous recommendations, use the same sort of simpson bracket and concrete block as ScottA used for his 16x26 Deer Run cabin? (the images are in his posting, or available here http://www.brightok.net/~cyscott1-ss/pics/121307.JPG

Thanks for all the help you all have given me in the past, either in response to my questions, your responses to other people's questions, or the general atmosphere of support that you all have created here, and a special thank you to John Raabe, whose designs are just fantastic, and without which we wouldn't be getting started!

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

[ScottA]

The piers I built cost around $45 each. That includes block, concrete, mortar, anchor bolt and rebar. One thing not show in my posting is the fact that each of my piers has 2 pieces of 1/2" rebar driven 4' deep in the ground at opposing angles to help prevent uplift. The anchor bolt is attached to these rebar inside the pier with tie wires. The pier blocks are poured solid with concrete. I don't feel that a shallow pier alone will keep you on the ground if the wind gets wild enough.

[MountainDon]

The system John describes in the little house plans has been used successfully. My variation on the little house is planned for concrete though. Just my personal preference. A concrete footing, 16x16x8 inches thick poured in the bottom of the holes, below expected worse frost depth is poured first. John illustrates how to lay the rebar in the footing, but your bldg permit dept will have final say. Here they insisted on a  #  shaped arrangement for something I did a number of years ago.

Concrete piers can be built on top of the footing, fitted with rebar tied to the footing, and the block hollow filled with concrete. You may be able to use 8x8x8 blocks if your bldg dept will allow. That'll save on some concrete.

My little house will be using a total of 10 footings/piers under the main cabin, 2 for a porch extension. The plan calls for thirty inch depth footings with rebar #, piers 4 blocks high with 2 each rebar inserted vertically. The blocks will be dry stacked, held in place with scrap metal and straps, then filled with concrete.

Included in my estimate are: all rebar, Quikrete bagged mix, the 8x8x8 blocks, the anchor bolts, the Simpson 4x6 post bases, rebar wire ties. Using current Home depot pricing, I come up with a projected cost of $309 plus tax of 6.875% = $330

NOT included are the PT wood posts or anything higher up.

[MountainDon]

Oh, I meant to say... you certainly do have a lot of pines! Looks like you have some work ahead of you. A lot of small diameter stuff that should be removed to open up the trees as well.

[pericles]

Both really great notes; thank you to ScottA and MountainDon, I think with your recommendations in hand I'll be set to start pouring this month.  Also thanks for tree thinning suggestion (my "woodsmanship" knowledge is even worse than my carpentry skills!)

No new pictures for a little while though, I dropped my phone into a cup of hot tea about five minutes after I loaded the pictures for the first post!

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

[MountainDon]

Ideally the area immediately surrounding the cabin should be thinned to the point where the tree crowns are no closer than 10 feet to one another. Also the ground should be cleared of the accumulation of dead pine needles. That's an ongoing task. Areas we've cleared have had a variety of short plants take hold. Grasses too.

Most, if not all, of the small diameter trees, we call them trash trees, should be cleared out as well. We drew our "line" at four inches and smaller. Even larger in places. We do have a great wood pile! And don't place the wood pile near the cabin. Ours is about 40+ feet away. That keeps the resident rodents farther away as well.

The dead lower branches of pine, fir and spruce should be trimmed as well. Those are known as ladders. They allow a ground fire to climb up into the upper branches of the larger trees.

You should be able to find local recommendations from the Forest Service or local universities with ag/forest departments. Here in NM the Forest Service will end a forester out to give specific recommendations.

Too bad about the phone. 

My wife's from Binghamton. Anywhere near you?

[pericles]

Not far actually, maybe a couple exits away on I81.  Now I know we're in good company!

[glenn kangiser]

Nice looking land and trees.  This should be a great project.

[pericles]

I just got off the phone with code enforcement; off the top of his head, the officer told me that the frost depth was "about four feet."  That seems REALLY deep to me, based on the other projects I've been observing on the site; is that a likely estimate, and if so, should we change our foundation plans?

Alternatively, MountainDon, you mentioned that you were only using ten piers, including ones for a deck (which we aren't tackling yet.)  John's plans call for 16 without a deck, and I was considering adding another three for a semi-load bearing beam in the middle just to support the loft in the read, in this sort of arrangement:

X===X===X===X===X===X

X===X===X

X===X===X===X===X===X

Could I cut down on piers a bit, maybe using four on the side beams and two in the middle, or will that not provide enough support?  I know ultimately it's question for code enforcement, but I'd like to walk into my financial ruin with my eyes open.

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

[MountainDon]

Well, when you stated a frost depth of 8 to 12 inches I wondered about that.  Here in my NM suburb I'm sure what the actual expected frost depth is, but they make you go 18" deep. For my NM mountain, 40 miles north and another 3300 higher, they told me 30 inches. I may go to 36" and add one block to each pier, just to be sure.

The number of footings and piers can be reduced by increasing the size of the beams. This is also dependant upon your soil type. The soil has to be able to support a more concentrated load. Most places should probably have no problem, but the local authorities would be able to tell you MTL.

For our building sizes piers could be spaced 8 feet apart with a 6x12 beam. Or 6 feet apart with a 2x10 beam. The beams could be built up from 2x material and 1/2" plywood, like the one at the end of THIS LINK.

My beams will overhang the end piers by 12" measured at the center of the pier. Spaced 7 feet apart that gives me a 30 foot cabin length, using 2x12's three wide for an effective 6x12.

With 2x10 floor joists and 2x8 ceiling joists the calculations indicate no central beam, no central load bearing wall is required. We're basically planning one big room with the only interior walls being for the small bathroom (toilet/shower). We're using furniture (wardrobe and chest of drawers) as a divider to separate our bed area from the rest of the cabin. It's being built for the 2 of us mainly with a sofa bed for occasional guests. The sofa bed should ensure guests will be occasional, not long term. 

[PA-Builder]

I just got off the phone with code enforcement; off the top of his head, the officer told me that the frost depth was "about four feet."  That seems REALLY deep to me, based on the other projects I've been observing on the site; is that a likely estimate, and if so, should we change our foundation plans?

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

Jack,
That 48" depth is pretty close to where you want to dig. I'm in south-central PA (along I-81 too) and around here 42" is somewhat of a standard.  Hope this helps.  Keep us posted !

[pericles]

Thanks PA-Builder, although the news is a bummer!

Mountain Don, your foundation instructions are invaluable.  The reason I have been considering a third beam is that I am not at all confident in my ability to construct PEG's ledger let-in; assuming I used the method from the NH cabin, (loc-tite screws on a ledger without a let-in) I thought I would need a wall underneath the loft around the middle? 

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

[MountainDon]

The ledger let ins are not all that difficult to do. If you use 2x6 studs there enough meat in them to do so. If you use 2x6 you could use 24" OC to reduce the #of studs, IF the interior and exterior wall material is amenable to wider spacing.

Laying the studs out of the floor, clamping them in a bunch, and cutting those let ins with a properly set for depth circular saw, is pretty easy. Gives a strong wall and loft support.

How high were you planning the sidewall to be? 8 ft lower floor, plus 2 feet, or?

[pericles]

We're planning to extend the walls a bit MountainDon, probably to 9'.  That would give us an additional two feet of headroom, and make for a comfortable sleeping loft on one side, and a tiny office on the other side of the cat-walk.

Hm.  I'm really tempted to try the let in - everyone who's suggested it has commented on how easy it is... and it would certainly save money over all those jack-studs!  Alternatively, in the plans-help section there's a suggested plan where you use heavy duty screws to secure the ledger to the studs, (no let-in) and then secure the joist to the stud with bolts, resting on top of the ledger - less attractive, but still no interior load-bearing wall.

My wife throws at a local pottery studio though, and she reminds me though that we were planning to mold, fire, and glaze our own custom tiles for the kitchen floor and counters, and the bathroom floor, walls, and shower.  We were assuming that we'd need an additional beam in the center so as to keep the floor from deforming and breaking the tiles if we kept the 14' width.

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

[glenn kangiser]

The let in is very simple and straightforward -- you won't have a problem.  Also strong doing the semi-balloon.  You really don't want a short wall above the loft or second floor.  Spreading problems, etc.

[PA-Builder]

. . .  We were assuming that we'd need an additional beam in the center so as to keep the floor from deforming and breaking the tiles if we kept the 14' width. 

If you are using 2x dimension lumber, it may be a challenge to find 14' joists that are straight enough, and when laid with the crown up, will exactly rest on the center beam without shimming/cutting.  I used 2x8-18' ceiling joists that proved to be a real PITA when trying to position on exterior stud walls and interior partition walls. That's probably why a lot of builders use two shorter joists (lapped over the center beam) that will eliminate that potential problem.

[MountainDon]

Well, let's take a pause for a sec. Johns little house plans, as drawn, does not have knee walls for the loft. In the 14 foot width I don't think there would be a problem. However, if you already have those plans, pericles, you should post that very question in the Plans Support section. John likely will look for new posts there before he might see a question any where else, like here.

Second, as drawn, the 2x8 floor joists over hang the support beams. Using two individual joists from each side, overlapping a central support beam, as suggested above, is probably not a good idea. That's because the overhang is possible only because the joists are continuous. I believe this is not a good idea for the floor joists with beams located as per the plans. A large enough overlap and nailing could work, but you'd be increasing the materials cost unnecessarily I'm sure. I'm not an engineer, so maybe I've overcautious. 

As the plans are drawn the 2x8 floor joists should not have any problem with a tile floor. Again, you could pose that question under Plan Support. John does support those who purchase his plans. If there was any doubt, the way I look at this, is that there's more cost and labor benefit by increasing joist size to increase floor strength/stiffness than by placing a third central beam along with the required footings and piers. But to be certain you'd have to run a cost analysis.

You're not planning on tiling the loft are you? That would raise a while set of other questions.

One big part of that equation is the cost of digging the holes. By hand that's a big labor cost even if it's your "free" labor. If dug by machine it wouldn't cost much more for a few more holes. Concrete, etc will add up.

So so for what it's worth, my belief is you should clear the use of 2x6 wall framing and let in ledgers for ceiling joists, plus raising the side walls (to form knee walls) with John in Plan Support.

ALSO, and this could greatly influence how this is built, IF you are in a code enforcement area, these questions should also be asked of them. Local rules and rulings over-ride any plan virtually 100%.

[pericles]

I do have the plans for the little house, the additional foot of wall was a modification we were going to try for, something we saw in the NH cabin (actually, I think they have 10' walls.) 

I'd rather use 14' joists than overlapping ones I think.  You're absolutely right about the added cost, and I very much understand your concern about the overhang.  (Although we are considering placing the piers along the edge, just underneath the walls.  It would mean less work for us in terms of constructing the... I'm not sure what they're called... flying buttresses?)  And now that you've suggested that we could tile the floor without breaking the tiles, then there's no need for the third beam anyway, eliminating the PITA PA-Builder cited.

No tiles in the loft, just a bed and end tables on one side, and a little desk and chair on the other.

I have one final question for the group before I sign the contract and we get started clearing brush: will the soil be suitable for building THIS type of foundation?  I ask you guys, (and not local code enforcement) because the code enforcement officer wouldn't give me straight answers; until we submit a plan, he can't OK anything, and we can't submit a plan until we own the property - kind of a catch-22 for the novice builder 

Here's the description from the county's GIS portal:

VoC Volusia channery silt loam (8-15% slopes). This is a deep, somewhat poorly drained, medium textured soil which has a fragipan at 10 to 16 inches. It occupies sloping areas of glacial till in the uplands. This soil is strongly to medium acid. Permeability is moderate in the part above the fragipan and slow in the fragipan. The available water capacity is moderate. Natural fertility is low. This soil is suited to crops, hay, pasture, or woodland. The main problems are an erosion hazard due to steepness of slope and prolonged wetness makes the growing season somewhat shorter. Where cultivated this soil is used or crops in support of dairying.

Thanks for everybody's support.  After this I hope I'll be able to post some progress pics!

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

[MountainDon]

(Although we are considering placing the piers along the edge, just underneath the walls. 

Just a quick note before I immerse myself in dinner preparation. Back later. 

As soon as you move the beams out, that increases the effective span for each floor joist. The 2x8's will bend, or deflect, more. IF you used Doug Fir Select Structural in place of the #2 that I think the plans call for, you'd be right at the edge of the max allowable span. 

Using 2x10 joists would allow ceramic tile if the beams were moved out under the walls, even using #2.

Check your local availability and pricing before committing one way or another.

Everything's a trade off. 

[MountainDon]

I didn't know what fragipan was and what I found is... "subsurface soil layers that restrict water flow and root penetration". Sounds similar to what we have here, caliche. Except I think caliche is worse. I ran into a layer when wanting to plant an apple tree. Similar to concrete.     Caliche is alkaline, fragipan is acidic, so many differences.

In the end though fragipan may make the hole digging more difficult. That's what would make the soil there "somewhat poorly drained" as mentioned on the GIS site.

I went down to the county building department before we bought the mountain land. They did take the time to answer my questions about frost depth, how large the footing should be for the mountain soil and so on. Maybe it was because I was there in person? I dunno. I never tried the phone at all. 

So is the soil suitable? Probably. But the building code guy ought to be able to tell you or tell you if you need to have your specific soil tested.

It would mean less work for us in terms of constructing the... I'm not sure what they're called... flying buttresses?)

No buttresses, flying or not, here. You probably mean the bracing from the posts to joists as shown on several of the Little House plan sheets.  Those are not difficult to make. They are not precision cut lumber that fit precisely into the structure. They are nailed, lag screwed or bolted in an overlap fashion.

There are lots of ways to skin every cat. 

[PA-Builder]

. . . Using two individual joists from each side, overlapping a central support beam, as suggested above, is probably not a good idea. . .

Don,
I must not have made myself clear above. I was not recommending overlapping floor joists in Pericle's design; but simply pointing out a problem that he may face if he were to add a center beam, and then try to get all joists to rest evenly on the three beams.  As you suggested, I would also increase the joist size (from a 2x8 to a 2x10) if there was a potential deflection issue.  Sorry for the confusion.

[MountainDon]

Sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees, or vice versa. 

What you said makes perfect sense now. 

Thanks

[apl.1984]

 what are you doing for power and water ?

[pericles]

To begin with, we're bringing water up in 5 gallon jugs and storing them at the site.  There's also a quick flowing stream on the property, so after testing it for acids, particulates, or contaminates, we might use that to mix concrete (instead of water brought from off-site.)  We're also purchasing a generator to run our tools and to keep for a backup.  There's a link to one that comes highly recommended for our fairly limited needs here:
http://www2.northerntool.com/product/200313480.htm. 
While building and for a while afterwards we plan to use an outdoors grill (because what's the point of having a cabin if you can't grill steaks?) and a camping stove.  Also while building and for a while afterwards we'd plan to use a composting toilet from Envirolet and a Zodi-Shower.  Less finicky builders have used out-houses and camping showers I know, but we're still newlyweds and I just don't want to get to know my wife that well yet.

Next summer, after throwing up the framing, we're going to install a wood-stove for heat and cooking.  We are also planning to use solar panels for electricity.  There are a number of solar panel kits that you can buy, many of which are expandable (i.e. you can add additional panels or batteries at a later date) that start at about $700.  Alternatively, there is electric at the road, and we could decide to hook up to that.  Remember, we plan to be around on weekends, not full time, so there's plenty of time for the batteries to charge while we're away.

Also next summer, or maybe two years from now, we'd like to drill a well and install a septic tank.  Wells in the area frequently are just 100' deep, so it hopefully won't cost a fortune, especially if gasoline prices calm down.  The area we're building in has pretty strict requirements about septic tanks, so we might end up spending as much as $15k for both, but I'm hopeful that there is a smaller septic system we can install, given our intended very limited use.

Jack Larkin
jlarkin1@law.villanova.edu

[MountainDon]

We're also purchasing a generator to run our tools and to keep for a backup.  There's a link to one that comes highly recommended for our fairly limited needs here:
http://www2.northerntool.com/product/200313480.htm. 

If you haven't got that already do a careful appraisal of what tools you may want to use. Tools with motors can take a larger surge to get going than the nameplate rated current. That's a very attractive price.

Another little note that may or may not be of concern... every 1000 feet of altitude above sea level results in approximately a 3% loss in power. That goes for any gas or diesel powered machine, unless super/turbo-charged. Everything that burns fuel is rated at sea level as a general rule of thumb.