A floor framing question for the experts here

[poppy]

In my 1957 house rehab, I think I have uncovered another problem.  Take a look at the ledger board that was supporting 12' 2x8 joists.



That is a 2x6 that is only nailed into the sill plate and perimeter joist through 1x sheathing.  They used big a@@ nails and it appears solid, but do I need to do something like put in lag bolts or rip it out and start over??   

[nathan.principe]

In my opinion, at the very least secure the ledger with lag bolts ( some one a while back posted a chart to determine size and spacing), but another issue I see is that the ledger is 2x6 and will be receiving 2x8 joists, and by the picture I would assume that the bottom of the 2x8 will sit flush with the bottom of the 2x6 ledger?  that means the top 2" or the joist will be exposed on the end grain.  Using joist hangers ( which is recommended anyway) may mean this is no cause for alarm.  Someone elses sharp eye will have some input Im sure

[Don_P]

Is there a reason not to remove the ledger and use joist hangers directly on the rim? It also looks like there is some foundation wall trouble there.

[poppy]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Nathan, if I leave the 2x6 ledger in place, the top of the new 2x8 joists will be about 4" above the top of the ledger.  The pic. doesn't show it, but the existing joists are notched so that the bottom of the joists are indeed flush and I'm replacing them because they are 2" too low.

Don, the only reason not to use hangers directly on the rim joist is that it creates more work and more expense unless lag bolts would cost as much as hangers.  But I certainly respect your knowledge and experience, and will look at it again tomarrow.

And yea, the foundation walls have cracks in various places around the perimeter, but I'm not very concerned because it's an old house that has settled and not much is level and plumb in the original 1957 structure. 

I will keep you all posted.

[PEG688]

So you're looking for a flush floor there? The two sub-floors the same height?

If so why not leave the existing 2x6 in place, rip a piece 4" wide and nail it directly above the existing 2x6, creating a wider ledger.

You could also post up off the footing with a 2x6 on the flat every 16" or so , attach either with a gusset  nailed to the vertical "post" between the floor joist.

Or attach with drive pins into the block , placing the verticals directly under the floor joist.

With that block I'd go with the ply gusset between the floor joist.

  Was that at one point a exterior deck , or a sunken room?  Seems a odd off-set if it was a interior sunken room.

G/L PEG   

[rocking23nf]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Nathan, if I leave the 2x6 ledger in place, the top of the new 2x8 joists will be about 4" above the top of the ledger.  The pic. doesn't show it, but the existing joists are notched so that the bottom of the joists are indeed flush and I'm replacing them because they are 2" too low.

Don, the only reason not to use hangers directly on the rim joist is that it creates more work and more expense unless lag bolts would cost as much as hangers.  But I certainly respect your knowledge and experience, and will look at it again tomarrow.

And yea, the foundation walls have cracks in various places around the perimeter, but I'm not very concerned because it's an old house that has settled and not much is level and plumb in the original 1957 structure.  

I will keep you all posted.

Hangers cost like a dollar each. your talking maybe 8-10 bucks for that section.

[poppy]

PEG, the original floor sturcture was for an open porch and the floor was 2" below the house floor.  When they closed it in there was only a 7' ceiling height despite the 2" recess.

I ripped out the remodel ceiling so that I could raise it and also raise the floor.

I think Don has the right solution and as rocking pointed out the hangers are only a buck each.

As far as I can determine, there is only a single 2x8 rim joist which runs parallel to the house floor joists, so I'm thinking that I will use a couple of the salvaged joists to double up the rim.

[Don_P]

The rim, even though a single, is continuously supported. It don't get better than that. Doubling it with a board that is hanging on nails only weakens the joist connection the way I see the situation. You know how that goes though, I've only seen it from one angle.

[poppy]

Don, I was not clear in my description of adding a second rim.  There is a plate on top of the concrete block foundation wall and the rim joist sits at the outside edge of that plate.

My plan was to add a second rim on the inside so it also would sit on the plate.  A single rim joist running parallel to the main house floor joists didn't make any sense to me, however I still have to crawl under there and see it up close and personal. 

[poppy]

So while I was working on the main house floor framing, I crawled over to the foundation to see what the inside of the sill plate and rim looked like.


As I suspected, the rim is a single 2x8 as shown here on the right.  On the left is the triple 2x8 girder down the center which is supported on a bump out from the wall.  If you look closely you can see that the sill is not resting on the foundation.   

The foundation problem that Don mentioned runs the full 18' length of the old porch.  The sill plate only touches the top of the wall at both ends.  It appears that the footer sank away from the cistern foundation.  So what we have here is an "I" beam made up of a 2x8 sill plate on the bottom with the 2x8 rim joist forming the web and the 2x4 wall plate making the top flange.

It's no wonder that the sheet rock cracked on that opening that I cut for the new door.   

I'm not sure what to do now?    I need to do some shoring up I guess, especially at the intersection of the girder and outside wall.

[Don_P]

Hmm, you'd be hard pressed to call that a bearing point... although with the floor loaded on that rim it probably was supporting at least some load. Either repair/replace it to where it can be called the load path or redesign the rim to be an adequate girder for the clear span, ~18'?. If it hasn't tipped I'd be tempted to clean the joints and repoint them, then parge it with a surface bonding cement like surewall. When it's cured a bit shim the sill.

It sounds like your door cutout might have demonstrated something an engineer once pointed out. There is the design load path, which may or may not be the actual load path. It sounds like the drywall had turned the walls into a diaphragm that supported the ceiling above, until that diaphragm was broken, the drywall cracked and the wall settled back onto the floor.

On the girder splice. It is non code but if the splice is near the 1/4 point of span it is probably at what is called the inflection point, the place where bending stress of a beam over multiple supports passes through zero stress. That may be asking too much of your old carpenters though.

[poppy]

Don, thanks again for your learned responses. 

I don't think the foundation has tipped, if by that you mean leaning out of plumb.  I'll check that out.  In any case, the wall and floor need more support especially since the new ceiling support post will be at that wall, not to mention the 350# wood stove.   

Your engineer may be correct about the diaphrapm affect, but in fact the wall board is cracked in almost every corner above other windows and doors, even with good foundation support.  It may have as much to do with lack of diagonal bracing as anything else.  There is no wall bracing and the sheathing is 1x12 non-glued T&G pine boards placed horizontally instead of diagonally.  The only continuous membrane is the sheetrock.

Unfortunately, I think the girder splice is about mid-span, but the pier span is only 8' and I've removed the load bearing wall above that point.  I would have added more support under that splice if I had left the wood stove in that area, but have since decided to move it across the room.