getting set to build

[rick91351]

My limited experience with gates is that most of them sag a little over time; either the post moves a little or the gate itself sags. What I'm getting at is that the outboard end should have a place to rest its weight on; ours does. And the wider the gate the worse that can get. Just something to keep in mind.

You are so correct! Using the two gate system you can easily add a deadman in the middle with a block to hold the weight.  The deadman does not have to be fastened or dug in to the ground.  The best ones I have seen is a disk off a farming implement, or a disk plow.  (What ever you call them where ever you are from.)  The disk acts as a foot.  Cut a piece of 4" pipe to height, weld that to the disk, weld a piece of flat iron to the top.  Both gates can rest on this.  Then if you have to open both gates, you can move it out of the way.  Or just a wooden block works just as good.  Using one gate we always just nailed a board to the post opposite the hinge side and let the end sit on it.  However remember if you are going to swing the gate open and leave it for long extended times like the summer or a month or may be a week.  It does not hurt to supply a little support there as well when it is opened.         

[MikeOnBike]

Agree with Rick and Don.  We used two 8' paired gates for our place and will install another this spring.  Ours stay closed most of the time, unfortunately.  I have thought about, but not put deadman on the todo list.

[MountainDon]

I like the idea of a doubled set; maybe a pair of 8's or a ten and a six, the six being only used if necessary.

[altaoaks]

Much thanks to all, I bow to your experience. 

Many years ago when I lived up in Three Rivers, CA. we had a 12' aluminum farm gate over a cattle guard.  It worked fine, but it was really light weight.  the 12' and 16' tube gate I was looking at was much heavier and stronger.  So I bet that would be alot more drag on the posts!  I really hadn't thought about that.

I didn't see other sizes in stock, but they could probably get them.  That 10' with a 6' that only opens as needed sounds like a really workable idea.  I like that I would still only have 1 gate to deal with on a day to day basis.

my surveyer says that the lower corner between us and the cabin was never set.  Not what I wanted to hear, but I cant cry over spilled milk!  Just pick myself up and go forward!  So I was given 2 choices:  first, he could determine the corner and stake every 50' along the boundry so i'd know exactly where to put the fence.  Second, he could survey, set the marker, map and file it, and also stake every 50' to guide our fence for $1800.

I took optiopn #2!  These people called me today and are insisting the canyon is their property.  the canyon runs all the way between that entire mountain side, so does that mean they think they own the canyon no matter whose property it goes through?  Yeah, wrong.  The surveyer says the canyon where i caught them cutting is well onto my property.  That survey and marker, and the fence cannot come too soon!

So the surveyer also says to me today, "so you know they're growing dope over there don't you?"  I told him that i had seen it this past September.  Then he tells me he pulled an aireal map from April and it shows their pot garden very clearly, and would i like a copy?  YES.  I need leverage! 

Wouldn't you think that someone growing an illegal cash crop would not encroach on their neighbor's property and cut their timber and add insult to injury, leave all the slash, not to mention piss them off with a dump truck plus of stuff lining the easement and stacked right up to their neighbors property line?  Would not such a person think its better to stay on the good side of his neighbors?  Hmmmmm!

[Sassy]

Sounds pretty frustrating, altaoaks!  But they probably are too stupid to understand the subtleties you speak of 

[nysono]

this could get interesting.....I agree with the $1800 full survey and filing

[rick91351]

Much thanks to all, I bow to your experience. 

Many years ago when I lived up in Three Rivers, CA. we had a 12' aluminum farm gate over a cattle guard.  It worked fine, but it was really light weight.  the 12' and 16' tube gate I was looking at was much heavier and stronger.  So I bet that would be alot more drag on the posts!  I really hadn't thought about that.

Sounds like what was marketed as Life Times Gate.  They were hardly life time.   

Here is a couple broken ones I use for panels to keep the live stock away from the drip irrigation equipment for the berries that surround the orchard.

I took optiopn #2!  These people called me today and are insisting the canyon is their property.  the canyon runs all the way between that entire mountain side, so does that mean they think they own the canyon no matter whose property it goes through?  Yeah, wrong.  The surveyer says the canyon where i caught them cutting is well onto my property.  That survey and marker, and the fence cannot come too soon!

However be well aware that they can move a lath line or destroy it and pull out pins.  Best to be ready to rock and roll when the survey is completed.  Do not think this will end hard feelings.  But I agree with you have to do what you have to do.  My and one neighbor just do not get a long.  Never will I guess.      

   

[Redoverfarm]

Normally it is not the gates that sag it is the mounting post.  Most of the gate post are part of a brace post system at the end of a fence run.  Stand alone gates do not have that brace system and need to be beefed up some.  Larger diameter post generally well set will last a long time.  You might also look into a all thread type gate bolt verses the lag type.  You can adjust them more accurately and securely.  You could also use a metal 5-6" diameter metal pipe for the mounting post.  If you use the all-thread type bolts you can drill the post to install.  Just remember to hang your gates 8-10" off the ground. 

In my situation I did not have a straight run as my driveway exited a Forrest Service Road.  It is probably overkill but I installed two 12' gates which can be independently opened or both at one time. For the most part I just open one side and alternate every so often.  It sure comes in handy turning larger machines or tandem equipment off the road into the driveway .

[altaoaks]

Hi Sassy, thank you for the understanding words, and I am certain you are very much right on the money with that insight!

Redoverfarm, that looks like the gate i'm looking at, it looks great on your property, and long lasting!

Rick92351, Yep, thats the gate I used to have, and i'm sure I do not want again.  Looks pretty good as a livestock barrier though!  I'm pretty sure the fence won't stop the hard feelings, just give us good seperation!  If they move the new marker I will make a sheriff's report, and proceed however necessary.  They already have hard feelings since they were trying to buy the land at the time we purchased it, but they didn't have the 20% down payment, ummm, and no job!

Thanks Nysono, I need the moral support!

Mikeonbike, thats a nice setup you have there also, Great gate!

[altaoaks]

I went up to the property yesterday afternoon and met the surveyer, signed the contract and gave him a deposit.  Hurrah!  He will be done either monday or tuesday, and have it filed as well.

He is an awsome guy, I was lucky to find him.  He is every calm and patient, and he needed that on Friday.  He arrived at my property about 2 hours ahead of me to start some of the prelimenary measuring.  He called me as I was stuck on I-80 in Davis behind a rollover accident that had colsed all lanes, he chuckled quietly as he told me my "neighbors had come over to "help" him, they were very busy with their tape measures, and they had already succeeded in locating the property line without him!" He said he was also fairly certain within a few inches either way, and it not where they are hoping.

The neighbor's girlfriend says they have been in construction since 1985, so I guess that means her boyfriend is able to wear the "surveyers hat" as well.  So far as I can see, he is a jack of all trades, a master of none, and knows EVERYTHING better than anyone else.  Amazing.

Here I was up there with my camera in my hand, and all I could think about was taking a couple more shots of the stuff lining my property line at the easement in.  I planned to take a few nice shots for photobucket.  I will be up there on monday afternoon, and I will take them for sure.

[MountainDon]

If you think the neighbors might play "move the marker", you should take a few bearings on it from several different angles/positions so it could be easily located. The USFS does that and has markers on the trees they use. (They used to use metal plates/signs but now carve the data into the tree base. )  In your case it might be best to ID the trees pictorially, else the folks next door cut down the bearing trees.

[rick91351]

Witness rocks and trees work good.  In the event there are no good places to get bearings from.  Measure over three feet or so from the pin.  Drive a couple one foot pieces of rebar flush with the ground where ever he pins it at.  Do the lest about to disturb the area.  I have a feeling that you will not need to do anything.  They will be more or less compliant with the survey.  Especially if they have a pot growing operation going on.  Doubt they want to have the Sheriff and the DEA poking around.  Bad timing election year and all.  Someone will undoubtedly declare war on drugs again.       

[Tickhill]

Cut 2'-3' pieces of rebar and drive them beside each surveyor pin/marker 3-4 inches below the surface. Take pictures of each corner with gps coordinates visible. If neighbors move pins, you can find them with a metal detector. Well placed trail cams could monitor encroachments.

[Tickhill]

Sorry Rick, I didn't read your post all the way. I have had good luck with the rebar method. I know a man who concretes old camshafts for corner markers, pretty obvious if they get moved. Neighbor problems are a pain.

[altaoaks]

WOW!  I really hadn't given much than a passing thought to the possibility to them moving the marker.  Thank all of you for the input there.  I will absolutely take some precautions now, and I agree with the suggestion of not doing anything obvious so that they dont know precautions were taken.  and I WILL take and print up photos of all of the markers to assure they aren't messed with.

Two of my corners have metal plates on trees placed long back by the Pacific Gas $ Electric Co. due to their transmission lines running along the outside peremiter.  Those signs also warn that cutting down or altering the tree or plates is against the law and will be prosecuted.  Call me naive, but I would never mess with something that  is a legally recorded boundry, kinda dumb of me to think others would play by the rules!

I am very glad these suggestions were given, I would not have thought of photographing, or staking and protecting that new marker, and really wouldn't have given any thought to protecting the other 3 markers and bearing trees.  That will all be documented and archived now.  They are beyond a doubt not going to be happy, and for us to fence they will have a lot of stuff to move out of my path.  He is an extreemly lazy person, he leaves everything where he puts it for prosperity!  His beer cans and bottles are becoming antiques as we speak. 

You know, I hate to be shoved into becoming a snitch, I don't think very highly of the big brother rules and regs on ones own private property either, although he does have scarry folks around during growing season.  I would need to be pushed pretty hard, but it occurs to me that if I had to do that, it should be a call to the IRS instead.  By the way, the surveyer did bring me a copy of his airel photo, that plantation is much larger than I thought, and so obvious!  It also runs right along that federal land.

Many, many thanks to all again!  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

[MountainDon]

Those signs also warn that cutting down or altering the tree or plates is against the law and will be prosecuted. 

We had the legal pleasure of cutting down two bearing trees this past fall. The USFS had gone through and redid all the bearing trees in our section of the Santa Fe NF. We asked the crew if we could dispose of the old ones since they were making new ones.  Two bearing trees near us we dead and had been for a while. I saved a section of trunk with the sign attached for posterity. We'll put it on display with other artifacts we've collected from our land. Old wood stove parts and other unidentified old iron and steel items mainly.

[flyingvan]

Do the plumbing and electrical yourselves too----neither are difficult, especially if you plan your plumbing and cut the pipes into the framing while you frame.  Just get one of the plumbing code flip charts and follow the sizing, and where different branches need to be.  Pick up the latest copy of the electrical code---NEC.  You don't have to memorize it, just look up what you need as you go

[altaoaks]

Hey Mountain Don, how cool is that, the trunk sections with the bearing markers is a great conversation piece, and for sure a part of your land's history.  A couple of dead trees gone must feel nice!  I think its neat you are artifacting finds from your property, out in that area you could find about anything.  Some years back, my dad split a 20 acre parcel into 5 acres and sold 3, kept one in Mimbres.  They found a good amount of pottery shards, and one piece that was nearly intact.  NM has such a rich cultural history.

Flyingvan, i'm confused, you must have been thinking of another post.  I wish we were to the plumbing/electrical!

[MountainDon]

Hey Mountain Don, how cool is that, the trunk sections with the bearing markers is a great

Flyingvan, i'm confused,........

You are not the only one altaoaks.  Scratched my head over that one too. 

[Squirl]

Calling the authorities can be very profitable.

http://www.irs.gov/compliance/article/0,,id=180171,00.html

I believe in most states moving any property marker, unless the person is a licensed surveyor,  is considered illegal.  They usually have specific statutes dealing with that.  In addition it can sometimes be prosecuted under theft or fraud statutes.

[rick91351]

Who me?  Move what marker?  You know I am not the only one to have problems with this guy..............  Bet he dug'en up himself and tossed them to get me in trouble.  He is all bitter with where the corner was set.   

The ones that you never want to move.  Even think of moving are the survey monuments set by the Federal Geological Survey. 

[altaoaks]

Thanks for the link Squirl, although I am still hopeful that they will fade into the background and at the very least, they go their way and I will go my and never our paths shall cross again...Probably FAT CHANCE!  but I can hope.  But now if they can't work with the property lines and be respectful of our rights, then you assisted me with the links!

rick 91351, Thanks for that, I would personally be concerned about moving any survey markers, you'd think if its caught that it would be prosecutable...but then, if no one sees it done, how does one know who to prosecute?  Although I would know who did it, how can that be proven?  That is a concerning thought.

[Squirl]

Altaoaks you brought up an interesting topic.  The mention of a growing a cash crop got me thinking about the current policies.

The following is for discussion purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice or legal descriptions of a specific circumstance.
The current administration has suspended its prosecution of some marijuana cases.  The laws have never been repealed by congress.  The statute of limitations on most offenses is 2-5 years.  Even if the current administration isn’t prosecuting for certain acts in the past 5 years, the next administration can prosecute and seize all property for current actions.  If I were in the position of a landlord in that scenario, I would be paranoid.  Combine that with the fact that forfeiture can be criminal or civil and the forfeiture actions are In Rem (against the property, not person) and civil forfeiture only requires a preponderance of the evidence, you think a landlord would take seriously any matter of their property being used for illegal activity.  The feds really like this form because they don’t have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt or knowledge.  It is a large source of funding for many agencies.  I would think if a landlord got a letter, say from a complaining neighbor, disclosing this fact and the U.S. Attorney, DEA, or FBI was CCed on such letter it would prompt fast action.  The landlord would have little defense of not having knowledge of the activities at that point. 

Also, in most states, almost no eviction defense can stand up to illegal activity.  This is also usually decided by a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not).  A few photos are usually strong evidence.

[Bob S.]

Would it be possible to have a third party rat on them?

[altaoaks]

Hi Squirl, yes, I aggree with all of that, and my mind was going that direction, the county sheriff would probably not help much as, like i am being told, every 3rd person in the mountains is growing it, and the grow cards allow usually 20 plants per person with a card.  So i had already figured if i was going to need to exert my leverage, it would be with either the DEA or the IRS. 

I guess since property is under siege and underwater, the local jurisdictions aren't even confiscating real property anymore.  Seems they don't want to get saddled down with it.

Bob, unfortunately I have already contacted the landlord who was not interested.  so if they get turned in, they will know beyond a doubt that it was coming through me.  ok if they are gone, not ok if the come back.  there are only 2 neighbors, me and the couple above me who have known for years he was growning, and they didnt find it a problem.  not so sure i would want them or their famiy members after me.

The good news is the surveyer called me around 2pm, the marker is in and he was on his way home to map the boundry and get the paperwork ready to file.  He said the property line was even farther oveer in their direction than I had thought.  they have a shed on skids, and my land goes within 1' of it.

So he said they were busy moving their junk out of  my way as he left, including loading all of the scaffoling, galvanized pipe, wheelbarrows, shovels, old wire, etc. from the entrance to my property along the easement road. 

well, i jumped in the car and ran right up.  its about a 2 hour ride and i needed the light.  I was soooo amazed to see that they had cleaned up the easement road in, I wasn't expecting to acomplish that so it was a pleasent suprise.

along the border between us is also so much of his piles of stuff.  he moved an old pick-um-up truck that he doesnt use, and some rotted wood, and he saw me walking up so he came and spoke.

you know, you would never know we had a problem!  he just started a pleasant conversation about my dog, his dogs, heartworm, briefly touched on the survey, and said, "yep, that corner is just where I thought it was!"  Well if its right where he thought it was, does that mean he was intentially trying to steal a 30 + foot strip of my property?  and thats about what it was, over 30'.

later as i walked and took more pictures, (as you guys suggested) his girlfriend came outside to find the dogs, and she spoke in nice conversation about the dogs, growing tomatoes, the fox and bear problems,  and I thought, wow, just a couple days ago she was ranting and raving that her man has been in construction since 1985 and they own that land i was worried about the wood cutting on.   hmmmm, well, i guess she doesnt feel the same today as she did the other day!

I had to do some real hiking to find the new marker.  It was well past where i thought my land ended, and when i finally found it, i looked up and was looking right into the terraced area where they will be planting this years crop soon.   Had they not started all of this business, i would have tried to fence at least 10' over along the upper area, and propable 20' over at the lower area, and not in my favor, but in their favor!  I was really shocked.

and i'm stopping to take photos, then my camera wont cooperate, says i have low batteries!  but i did get some good photos and i popped some metal rods into the ground around the marker in case something hinky happens.  i'll go to photobucket this weekend and get them uploaded, i hope!  that survey was worth its weight in gold, maybe i wont need to see a real estate attorney about the easement now.  seems like i should just be very happy!  dog was very happy, they let their dogs come play with him (once they felt he wasnt dangerous), hes 105 lbs. but a social butterfly.