Author Topic: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .  (Read 4620 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bayview

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 882
Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« on: December 15, 2009, 08:47:53 AM »


   I have found this site to be very informative . . .  I have been a member for many years.  The contributions from its users is outstanding.

   I follow most of the builds with a lot of interest.  It has been useful for me in my own construction.   The ideas and professionalism is very helpful.  Many of the (homes-cabins-alternative construction methods) are off-grid and may not meet strict constructions codes.   I may not always agree with some of the building ideas or construction methods.  However, safety has never been compromised. . .  

   Recently, a forum user had asked for constructive criticism and helpful ideas.  He felt criticized for views or ideas that were different from his own.  He was overly defensive and became combative with personal attacks.  When banned he opened multiple accounts to support himself.

   The moderators gave this individual more than enough chances to be part of this community.   I for one, have  appreciated the intervention to this matter.


/
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 12:39:18 PM by bayview »
    . . . said the focus was safety, not filling town coffers with permit money . . .

Offline OkieJohn2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 09:06:10 AM »
Wow, and I missed it, the drama, the excitement, the car chases.......oh wait, I got carried away.
Having been a member of many forums over the years, I too have observed the problem of words on a screen.  Since there is no inflection, its easy (especially for newbies) to read more in a response than is there. Then the same newbie can start looking for evil intent in every word.  Usually a little helpful direction on the part of moderators will get the Original Poster back on track, but.....sometimes the wheels fall off.  Sad really, this is such a great forum. A problem is presented, options are wisely discussed, and a solution is found......what could be better.
Now relinquishing the soap box for others. (nope I don't seem to have spell checker on)
The problem with foolproof devices is that they fail to take into account the ingenuity of fools

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 09:21:54 AM »
Sorry I don't have a lot of time this morning and was not going to check in but in light of last night's drama I did.

Note that in resistance to many requests to ban the member we are talking about, I continued to give him chances, but as the personal attacks on others and me escalated and bad advice was continued to be pressed forward by the member, I had no alternative but to ban him immediately.

I and the other moderators had repeatedly tried to steer his advice in the right direction, but when there is a danger that a new or unknowing member may read his bad advice, think it correct and sustain monetary or physical injury somewhere down the road it is time for immediate ban.

Note that the moderators, including the website owner, John Raabe, have an agreement that discretionary banning or locking topics due to personal feelings about a subject or member will be discussed and acted on only after agreement by all.  Immediate threats to the well being and safety of the members do not carry that limitation.

We were working on the details of the discretionary ban previously until the member personally escalated the attacks and insistence on providing unsafe advice, prompting me to ban him immediately.

Thanks for your understanding in this matter.  We were trying to work it out to where we could weed out and keep the good advice in the threads, but the offending member did not allow that to happen.

Thanks to all members for making this forum what it is.  8)
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline ScottA

  • No Edits
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,183
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 09:44:24 AM »
I try refrain from giving much advice. Usually the person who did the work you are critical of will take offence even if they are wrong. Even when I do I usually say "it's my opinion" or something like that.

Offline poppy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 847
  • Southern Ohio, Back to my home town
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 10:22:44 AM »
I'm not here to defend anyone who got banded, but there is a couple of recent interesting articles on tinyhouseblog.com about shipping container dwellings.  I really don't know if they have any problems, but there does seem to be a number of companies doing this sort of thing.

Having said that, I would certainly not go out and pay $2000 for a container and then add another 4 or 6 thousand to make a small office.

There's also articles about pallet construction.

Again, I'm not defending anyone, but he was reporting on stuff that other people do as well as his own ideas.




Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 10:51:06 AM »
The problem was not reporting and discussion of those topics.  We already have several discussions of the same here on the forum.  You can find them with a search.

The problem arose when safety information was brought up regarding screwing the pallet walls together and rude personal attacks and belittling comments from the banned member against several other members were made multiple times.  When private reprimands were made we received threats of bad publicity and negative articles on other websites as well as demand for a public apology.  We cannot submit to threats and apologize for putting the safety of our members above another members false self proclaimed authority on a subject, personal pride and ego.

When safety information is poo-poohed and personal attacks are made against a member then the moderators must step in.  If it is general bad information we will discuss it privately, try to steer the conversation with corrections and constructive criticism.  After agreement of the moderators then action as appropriate will be taken if the offending member insists on providing unsafe information or rude comments.  

Personal attacks and insisting on putting unsafe information as truth will result in immediate action banning by one moderator with timely review by the other moderators including the site owner.  In this case there was too much bad information dispersed throughout the thread.  We have already been discussing things such as 12v Trojan batteries knowingly being put forth as 6 volt Trojan Golf Cart batteries.  We ignored correcting that in light of the fact that the information presented with it was essentially right and there were no safety issues.  Members that may provide unsafe or untrue information are closely monitored in case liability from their postings may arise.  That was the case here.  We received multiple alerts from other members using the report to moderator button.  

We don't want every cuss word or unimportant thing reported to us.  We are not nor do we desire to be police.  We do appreciate it any time a member brings a safety or liability issue to our attention via the Report to Moderator button though.  As more members post it is hard for us to keep track of everything.

If the information was allowed to remain then a member may have built a pallet house - had a moderate gust of wind shear screws and cause injury or death to the members family and possibly initiate a lawsuit against this forum for allowing another member to set himself up as an authority figure, minimize the safety advice of other members and act as if his bad advice was representing the advice of this forum.

Also, I will not tolerate rude attacks against other forum members by such a self important, belligerent. self proclaimed authority when it is plainly evident he does not know all of what he is talking about but insists on presenting his methods as safe.

I want ladies and children to be able to come here and feel comfortable asking questions as well as those who have more knowledge.  There are no stupid questions.

Unsafe practices being put forward as safe with rude, bullying, snide remarks toward those questioning their safety will not be tolerated.

Thanks for your understand and help in keeping this educational forum free and safe for all on the web.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 11:37:15 AM by glenn kangiser »
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline GeorgiaShooter

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 11:39:32 AM »
Just my 2 cents worth.... I just recently joined this forum and wanted to post my project eventually. I have bought the ebook the guy sells and have found a lot of good info in it. I was surprised to see the reaction to anything the guy tried to post. Some guy even sent me an email accusing me of being him.

As I stated in an earlier post, the guy has some good ideas and has responded to a couple of emails that I sent him with welcome advice. I sensed that there was some kind of "history" here that I was unawrae of. I like your site and I love the owner/ builder projects and I have learned a lot from following them.

I don't think anyone here wants to see anybody doing something that would cause bodily harm but I think the guy was ganged up on.

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2009, 12:08:41 PM »
I agree that the member had some good information and we discussed trying to keep it here.  

As a matter of fact I resisted banning him earlier.  As another matter of fact, I was the one who went forward with the immediate ban rather than waiting for the possible partial ban being discussed by our moderator group.  I was not the one who initiated the banning discussion, but independently decided on my own also that it was necessary.  Actually I was surprised when I received private mail regarding the banning when I had also decided it was necessary.  I did not know that the other moderators felt the same way initially.

Note that I had to ban a personal friend who insisted on being a jerk even though I did not want to. I gave him multiple chances to straighten up his act.  I still communicate with him via e-mail and facebook, but his actions on the forum prevented my allowing him here.

You will find that the members of this forum will start to gang up on new outsiders that present themselves as authorities but then start belittling existing members and making rude comments.  Many are here because they have left forums where rudeness is allowed and promoted going on and on and on until the whole forum is nothing but a bunch of postings of members taking pot shots at one another.

Confronting rudeness and bad information presented as good is not something that we teach.  This is something that the members themselves do because they don't want to see their forum taken down to the level of the rude forums.

I can right now think of 2 other cases where this has happened.  It is not the rule here as the bullies do not generally last long.

The advertising links that were in violation of John's policy continued to be placed in front of people.  That is slightly tolerated if it is not blatant and the poster participates in the forum answering questions.  This member was privately notified about the spamming but still kept posting ad links on his presentations with a request by him to ignore them.  Think of an elephant.  Now stop thinking of an elephant.  Did you stop?  That was a side issue.  Member abuse was the main issue.  

As member abuse and rude comments by the offender continue, then yes, our members will gang up on the offender, of their own volition.

All the offender had to do to stop that was treat other members with respect rather than stupid little no-bodies, and allow safety issues to be addressed with corrections rather than making snide remarks and minimizing the significance of the problem with untrue statements.

Ganging up on bullies - yes it will happen here.  You are correct about that.  Sorry, but that is just the type of people that are here.

I urge future members who read this to realize that our members will defend their forum.  Just be nice and allow constructive criticism when it is for the safety of others.  There will be no problems.  

Be rude, a bully or put forward unsafe practices as gospel.  Expect problems.

The posting of something that may not be correct or is unsafe will likely be corrected by other members in the next few postings, but if that questioning or correcting is ridiculed then things will get messy as in this case.

Oh and BTW w* too the forum, GeorgiaShooter.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 12:29:15 PM by glenn kangiser »
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline StinkerBell

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,289
  • CountryPlans member
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2009, 12:44:51 PM »
It's hard for them mod's.

I just really hope one day I can see the secret mod cave.

Offline fishing_guy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Full time: Twin Cities MN Fun Time: Iron Range MN
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2009, 12:45:40 PM »
Very nicely put Glenn.

I believe the poster in question had made an appearance several months ago, and when invited to participate, declined to do so.  I think several of us recognized the poster when they made their reappearance not so long ago.  Were we cautious of them the second time around?  You betcha.

I was at work (3rd shift) reading the exchange between Glenn and the banned poster.  I couldn't believe the rudeness displayed by the banned poster.  He wouldn't defend his position, other than whining that everyone was picking on him.  Over the year(s) I have been here I have seen several "discussions between members where there was a "correction" of a misconception.  It has always been done civily and patiently, sometimes requiring multiple posts to flesh out the misconception.  That is one of the things that keeps me coming back to this forum.  I think Glenn did the right thing.

Stick around GAshooter.  You will learn a lot, and hopefully teach us a lot in return.  I would trust most any member of this forum not to steer you the wrong way.





A bad day of fishing beats a good day at work any day, but building something with your own hands beats anything.

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2009, 12:47:31 PM »
It's hard for them mod's.

I just really hope one day I can see the secret mod cave.

I'm sure we can find at least one of them for you to tour, Stinky.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2009, 12:53:10 PM »
Thanks, fishing_guy.  We really do always try to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Your "trust" of forum members is an echo of John's words in a private message.  When we get to a member we cannot trust to give good advice in a respectful manner, we need to weed them out.

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline GeorgiaShooter

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2009, 01:39:21 PM »
Glenn- I will stick around and learn a little. I already think that we are kindred spirits as far as property owner rights and the infringement of those rights by government entities at federal, state, and local levels. The very idea that a man would have to involve the bureaucracies to pick up a hammer and nail togeather something of use that is larger than a throw rug turns my stomach.

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2009, 04:31:09 PM »
Great to have you aboard.  I like support of people who think like me.  I have thought that way since I was a little guy - maybe 13 or so remodeling my moms laundry room.  I remember at the time I could not understand how it could be their business and recently told my mom to expand as she wished without asking as our family was the original homesteader and receiver of the Homestead Grant from the Federal government.  County has no ownership rights on that property.

Also note that it is a two way street here... we all learn from each other.  I have learned lots of things on this forum that I use in my daily work.  I am a licensed contractor but don't claim to know it all.  I specialize in steel construction and installation for the most part.

So, please stick around and see for yourself if we don't always try to be fair and as good neighbors, look out for each others best interests.

PS, Caution GeorgiaShooter.... I have a bunch of relatives down there somewhere.  You will know them by the weird last name.... [waiting]
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline poppy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 847
  • Southern Ohio, Back to my home town
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2009, 07:11:35 PM »
Thanks Glenn for the additional info.  That said, I don't know that we members are entitled to a complete explanation of a mod. or mods. action realitive to banning someone.

You all have every right to run the site as you see fit and include or exclude anyone.

The forums that I frequent and contribute to have outstanding mods. and this site is certainly no exception.

I appreciate all you do and we members probably don't thank you all often enough for a pretty much thankless job.

Thank you.  I think I'll go to bed now.

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2009, 07:30:50 PM »
Thanks poppy.

While I likely didn't need to tell you all I told you I feel it is best to be open about my and our reasoning for our actions.

Even I missed out on the action after I went to bed, but it is my understanding that I was challenged and several members jumped in to defend my decision.  They did that because they feel I am fair.  If I hide my actions and reasoning, then they may not have felt that I was fair.

I feel it is not just my forum or John's or Don's- it is your forum and our forum.  I am just a lowly volunteer public servant with the best interests of the forum members in mind.  ::)
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline MountainDon

  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,883
  • Jemez Mountains, NM; that's pronounced HEY-mess
    • My 15.75 x 30 Jemez Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2009, 07:51:43 PM »
I haven't chimed in on this thread as Glenn was covering all the bases. We'd had a discussion and resolved to implement a ban. His late night remarks just made it happen a few hours earlier.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline NM_Shooter

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,788
  • Sometimes I sit and think. Mostly I just sit.
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2009, 04:01:47 PM »

Also, I will not tolerate rude attacks against other forum members by such a self important, belligerent. self proclaimed authority when it is plainly evident he does not know all of what he is talking about but insists on presenting his methods as safe.


Why not?  You guys put up with me, don't you?   ;D
"Officium Vacuus Auctorita"

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2009, 06:58:06 PM »
Borderline, Frank, Borderline.... [waiting]

Actually when we had our differences of opinion, it was not safety issues, but anti-political/political and it would have been extremely unfair of me to try to provoke you then pull your plug.... [panic]   

We had to do something to keep the other forum members awake didn't we.... [noidea'

Actually I enjoyed arguing with you , Frank... :)
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Offline NM_Shooter

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,788
  • Sometimes I sit and think. Mostly I just sit.
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2009, 09:17:30 PM »
You are a sick man.  One of these days I am going to buy us a beer.

-f-
"Officium Vacuus Auctorita"

Offline glenn kangiser

  • The Troglodyte
  • Administrator
  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,926
  • Central California Sierras- Home of Yosemite NP
    • Underground Cabin
Re: Constructive Criticism, Great Views and Ideas . . .
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 11:43:24 PM »
....and I am going to drink it...  [waiting]
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

 

Templates: 5: index (default), Ads (default), Portal (default), Display (default), GenericControls (default).
Sub templates: 12: init, html_above, adsheaders_above, body_above, adsindex_above, portal_above, main, portal_below, adsindex_below, body_below, adsheaders_below, html_below.
Language files: 3: SPortal.english (default), index+Modifications.english (default), Ads.english (default).
Style sheets: 1: portal (default).
Files included: 38 - 1132KB. (show)
Cache hits: 15: 0.00249s for 40,820 bytes (show)
Queries used: 30.

[Show Queries]