This really ticked me off

[Mike 870]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_re_us/amish_building_codes

Leave em alone.

[peternap]

Here's my story on it Mike (No offense to our northern neighbors, there's a disclaimer in the story)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_re_us/amish_building_codes

Leave a comment and I'll email the story to all the localities mentioned.

[John_C]

I really hope this stays in the news.  Typical Amish fashion would be carefully and strongly built and meticulously maintained, but way out of compliance with code.  I doubt they would care to use a Simpson connector everywhere two pieces of wood meet.  A lot of their buildings are post & beam which would require special engineering in most building departments.  That doesn't seem like something they would want either.

In court the Amish will be able to document a very long history of strong, long - lived houses and barns. Hundred+ year old houses that look great.  The building officials will be explaining how it's all for their own good and they are protecting them from shoddy building practices.   

Bring your popcorn for this one Peter, It's gonna be good.

[Bishopknight]

Thats outrageous.

The building depts just need money because no one is building anymore.

I've also seen alot more cops pulling over people. With all the law enforcement budgets being cut, I'm sure Chiefs are telling their patrolmen to write some tickets or get a pink slip.

[Squirl]

It was a little aggravating to me but the opposite direction.  I have lived around the Amish much of the time when I used to work on a farm growing up.  I still vacation in Amish country sometimes.  They have found ways to integrate in every which way.  This is a few bad apples spoiling it for the whole bunch.  Many of the Amish I knew where contractors.  They knew how to get building permits just fine.  It may be against their religion to be part of the overall community, but they have always integrated when laws come to safety. Over 100,000 Amish live in PA and they can fully comply with all permits.  Using the mail, reading, writing and planning are not against their religion.  They have outhouses (privy permit), buildings (building permit), and insurance (certificate of occupancy).  Also their buggies have electric lights, horns, and florescent signs.  Most codes have exemptions for no electricity.  Using non graded lumber in PA was because they were buying it from Amish mills.  Variances can be granted for every exception of the building code.  The point is they don't even want to try. 
I don't like the idea of people saying that they are exempt from the laws of society because of their religion.  While this case is harmless, the legal precedent leads itself to people like Warren Jeffs.  I agree that they are probably well built buildings and exceptions should be made, but this looks more like a case of asking for forgiveness rather than asking for permission.

[NM_Shooter]

My take on this is a little different.  I see the building authority folks and the inspectors to be little more than jack-booted thugs who get a small amount of authority and it swells up their little pin heads.  I had an electrical inspection done a couple of years ago for my rough in, and the woman who showed up to do this reeked of alcohol at 10:30 in the morning, and red tagged my J-boxes because I didn't have the neutrals tied together.  (none of the new construction in my neighborhood followed this!).  When I asked her to show me the code section, she said that it was not her job to educate me.

I'm also pissed at this nepotism based contracting/licensing club that does not allow me to test for a contractors license.... you see, I have never worked two years for a general contractor doing anything so much as pushing a broom. 

Then every year a new code comes out...arc-fault outlets, kid proof outlets, whatever.  If you touch any part of your house you are required to bring the whole thing into compliance. 

I think the Amish should be able to build and live in a complete shack if that is their desire.  I also think that if their shack falls down on them that I should not have to pay for their emergency room visit.  I suspect that they build pretty well though.

[peternap]

It was a little aggravating to me but the opposite direction.  I have lived around the Amish much of the time when I used to work on a farm growing up.  I still vacation in Amish country sometimes.  They have found ways to integrate in every which way.  This is a few bad apples spoiling it for the whole bunch.  Many of the Amish I knew where contractors.  They knew how to get building permits just fine.  It may be against their religion to be part of the overall community, but they have always integrated when laws come to safety. Over 100,000 Amish live in PA and they can fully comply with all permits.  Using the mail, reading, writing and planning are not against their religion.  They have outhouses (privy permit), buildings (building permit), and insurance (certificate of occupancy).  Also their buggies have electric lights, horns, and florescent signs.  Most codes have exemptions for no electricity.  Using non graded lumber in PA was because they were buying it from Amish mills.  Variances can be granted for every exception of the building code.  The point is they don't even want to try. 
I don't like the idea of people saying that they are exempt from the laws of society because of their religion.  While this case is harmless, the legal precedent leads itself to people like Warren Jeffs.  I agree that they are probably well built buildings and exceptions should be made, but this looks more like a case of asking for forgiveness rather than asking for permission.

Hmmm. I just couldn't disagree with you any more than I do, Squirl!

I grew up in Menonnite country and they are nearly the same. There are OLD order Menonnites, that refuse to play the game, and NEW order Menonnites that have integrated into the insanity.
The Timberframe and post and beam buildings the Old Order build are the best around. They are a PITA to have approved in most areas. Remember, building inspectors are Building inspectors because they are too inept to make a living as builders.

The Amish and Mennonites and for my money, everyone else that isn't selling the property or opening it up to the public, need to be left alone. In the mountains of Virginia, much of the old cabin building still goes on just as the timber framing with the Amish. The difference is that mountain people aren't non violent and very rural. Building inspectors have short life expectancies if they go snooping around.

Of course, even though the Amish are non violent, any building inspector persecuting them is just giving himself a second class ticket to hell!

[harry51]

FWIW, we all have a basic human right to provide ourselves with shelter. My position is that it's wrong for gov't to interfere at the personal level. I think the posts on CountryPlans are persuasive proof that people building for themselves really want to do things correctly, and will take pains to learn what they need to know to do so.

The permit is mainly just a tax, but their justification arguments are easier to accept in the case of structures built by contractors for other people who may be saddled with shoddy work without inspections. Of course, those people could hire private inspectors if they feel the need; the gov't still need not be involved.

I know a guy who works as a private inspector on commercial buildings. His company gets big bucks to keep the contractors on the straight and narrow, even though the gov't inspectors are there too. That fact is a sad commentary on the quality of the gov't inspection services we're compelled to buy.  It's that word "compelled" that really grates on me........

One upside is the compilation and publishing of the code books, which strive to be a guide to best, or at least adequate, construction practice. Would they exist without the gov't enforcement bureaucracy? (not to imply in any way that published codes justify the existance of the bureaucracy!)

[StinkerBell]

I support the Amish position on this.

[ScottA]

The building codes serve many purposes. Some good some bad. The notion that they somehow protect us from shoddy work is bunk though. Some of the worst built houses I've ever seen passed code and inspections. Example: Homestead Florida was all but wiped off the face of the earth by a hurricane but oddly some houses survived. An investigation found that many of the homes that where distroyed had been built so badly that they where unsafe but they had all passed inspection. In some cases they found that roof shething had been installed with only 4 nails per 4x8 sheet. This alone voids any claim by the government that they are protecting the public saftey.

The real reason is money. Tax money, intrest money, construction money. Make the houses cost more so the builders, banks, landlords and cities can make more money. To force people to rent by making houses too expensive for the working man to buy.

I hope the Amish win this but I bet they don't. It would open up an argument for anyone wanting to build his own home.

[NM_Shooter]

You mean that there needs to be more than 4 nails in a 4X8 OSB sheet?

More than just one in each corner?  What if I use really, really long nails?   

[glenn kangiser]

We used to have a Constitution that prevented this invasion of privacy and owner rights.  Perhaps the Amish need to charge a land use fee to prevent intrusion on their PRIVATE PROPERTY by jack booted thugs.

Write an invoice to the violators and take them to small claims court as necessary.  Reduce the amount to the court limit if necessary.  We have a lot of people posting these here as indicated by requests for the link after our big business septic money grab here.



It is a fact that the inspections do not prevent safety problems - one 4 year new house burned down here - one other new house burned down - electrical problems, and the DMV inspection shed failed under 9 inches of snow last year - it was pretty new and engineered also.  Building departments are about tax collection as agreed with by a county supervisor here.

[Bishopknight]

I think building codes are good for people who are having their house built by someone else, but in this case inparticular, I think its more about tax revenue collection and example making.

[Squirl]

I agree that the primary function is more to collect taxes than to make the building safer.  I also agree that the buildings are probably better built than many other houses.  But I disagree that they should be exempt because of their religion.  Hundreds of thousands of Amish can pay the taxes and fees.  While I disagree with the building codes and fees too, I don't get to claim I don't have to obey or pay them because they conflict with my religion.  It should be fair across the board building codes for everyone and fees for everyone or no one.  They can pay the fees and costs like everyone else and still build, just ask for the variance.

[glenn kangiser]

I feel there should be protection by code for people who do not build for themselves - against unscrupulous contractors,   but owner builders should be able to build their own house --- or coffin on their own private property.  They do not Constitutionally require permission.  UCC 1-207 should also help - get back to Common Law. 

http://www.landrights.com/UCC_1-207.htm

[MountainDon]

I believe the differences between Amish and Mennonites stem from different interpretations of the Bible. This leads to the Amish eschewing automobiles and electricity, whereas the Mennonites make use of both.


Anyhow, I think giving any group special status, special rules or the lack of rules when others are held to them is not correct and proper. That is not to say that building codes are all infallible or are not biased towards collecting fees simply for the money collected by governmental agencies. That is a separate issue.


Back home we had many settlements of Hutterites, more similar to Mennonites than the Amish. They lived in colonies, did not have automobiles, but they had some of the nicest farm trucks, Suburbans and machinery. They were also held to the same building standards that Uncle Fred down the road had to adhere to.

[sparks]

A few months ago a construction inspector was looking over my shoulder. "Hey, what ya workin on ?"

I told him it was an XPL42 hyperdronic electron nebulizer. "Oh, yeah...what zit do ?"

My reply was 'fancy fuse'.......it was actually just a plug in relay.

A few minutes later, the inspector came back with the NEC book and asked "how do you spell nebulizer ?"

I almost peed my pants



sparks

[peternap]

I believe the differences between Amish and Mennonites stem from different interpretations of the Bible. This leads to the Amish eschewing automobiles and electricity, whereas the Mennonites make use of both.

No, the Old Order Mennonites hold the same standards as the Amish. They are the same and most differences are geographical, not religious.

[MountainDon]

Ooops. Too many types... the only ones I knew lived near the farm a good number of decades ago.

[apaknad]

our local county/city police were crying in their beer about how their income had been drastically reduced because of less violations. you would think that they would be positive about more people being law abiding and making their jobs easier. seems to me that the police would be freed up to do more important things like catching crooks in felonies and not worrying about traffic violations which is what they were initially complaining about.

[StinkerBell]

I just read the book "An Introduction to Mennonite History: A Popular History of the Anabaptists and the Mennonites"

There is differences between Amish & Mennonites, both are Anabaptist, the difference is not geographical alone.

With that said there is also differences between Amish them self and their groups (same with Mennonites). I am Christian, that is generic. There are many different Christians. There are Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran......

There are sects of Mennonites that believe heavily in missionary works, whereas Amish do not follow those works. (just a fun example)

[peternap]

I just read the book "An Introduction to Mennonite History: A Popular History of the Anabaptists and the Mennonites"

There is differences between Amish & Mennonites, both are Anabaptist, the difference is not geographical alone.

With that said there is also differences between Amish them self and their groups (same with Mennonites). I am Christian, that is generic. There are many different Christians. There are Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran......

There are sects of Mennonites that believe heavily in missionary works, whereas Amish do not follow those works. (just a fun example)

Your right Stinkerbell. It was an over generalization...but the Old Order Mennonites and the Old Order Amish....are very very close.

[StinkerBell]

The book was a good read. Took me to the time of Martin Luther and how it all got started. Up to the 20th century and how the Amish split among them self and how the Mennonites split. I absolutely enjoyed the read and the history lesson.

[wildbil]

My parents bought a modular home a few years ago, the kind that comes in two peices. after only a few years they already made so many interior repairs, reinstalling the entire plumbing, reinsulating, changing the furnace to a safe place. The furnace was propane and located in central closet that was accessed through a bedroom. This home was entirely permitted and inspected and it was not cheap at all.

I believe careful planning and commonsense makes the best home.

[peternap]

The book was a good read. Took me to the time of Martin Luther and how it all got started. Up to the 20th century and how the Amish split among them self and how the Mennonites split. I absolutely enjoyed the read and the history lesson.

I wouldn't have traded growing up among them for anything. Many people stereotype them as these starched uppidy people who can only get along with themselves. That's not the case at all. They are different, but wonderful people. I spent a few winters trapping with Bobby Martin. Toss out profanity and some of my other vices , we were much alike.

One thing that they were criticized for...mostly by people who didn't understand, was taking the kids out of school. They removed their kids from public schools at age 16. Sounds bad but their education continued at home and they were there to learn farming the old fashioned way. Since they spent so little money, they had a lot on hand when the kids grew up. When one of the sons married, pop bought him a farm and he was well educated on how to run it. I never saw a Mennonite farm fail.

I suspect the lack of farmland, due to development, has had a lot to do with the move to New Order divisions.