Victoria Cottage at Lake Cushman, Washington

[CREATIVE1]

Going through the permitting process is HELL, especially for a cabin on an off-grid mountain with about six people living on it.  Submitted the plans after Christmas, correspondence and calls so far include:

1.  From Environmental Health:  Water sample is OK, but no Pumpers Report for the septic system, so we got a big "X" there.  Sent them what I had, but the pumping was done as a condition of sale, so I didn't order it--so NO copy available.  Apparently in our little community there are lots of people who do this, so just making a couple of calls won't help.  I thought this stuff was recorded somewhere.  Can't they do a little legwork?  I'm 3,000 miles away in Florida.

2.  From Plans Review:  They can't understand my changes, so they want me to hire an architect.  I called the Plan Review department before I submitted the plans and told them what I was doing.  They said it sounded O.K. THEN.  So, I'm getting a quote from an architect who submits about 60 plans to that county every year.  I don't have a price yet, but I'm sure there are more than a couple of zeroes involved.  I have an "Incomplete Submission," so it's dead in the water until they're happy with the plans.

3.  Geotechnical Survey needs a cover letter/update.  The guy who did it hasn't returned calls or emails.  At least he isn't the one who died--but I'm sure that's why he's so busy.

4.  Structural Engineer--they say he didn't deal with vertical stress or foundation issues, and his report won't fly.  Don't know whether to ask him to restamp the redrawn plans and do the needed calculations, or pay out another $500 or so bucks to someone else.  I assumed that if you were state licensed, engineering is engineering.  I guess not.

5.  From the Fire Marshall (sent Certified and Registered Mail, no less)  Apparently my private 1/4 mile road isn't up to fire code standards for fire trucks to access (no 10 x 30 turnout so the trucks can pass, etc. etc., etc.), so I need to put in an Automatic Sprinkler System that must be designed by a pipefitter.  They have to measure the flow from our water tank up on the hill--all kinds of other crazy stuff. Plus all those pipes will look awful with the open beam design of the Victoria.  This is a brand new requirement.  The Fire Marshall (and other county employees) hasn't deigned to call me back in ten days.  Apparently he's going to be removed from his position, which will only help me if they remove these new requirements too.

We'd almost consider moving into the travel trailers on the property and building a couple of under 200 sq foot structures  (if that is still permitted), and eventually sneakily enclosing the 45 x 14 two story pole barn, BUT we are required to remove the trailers by January 1 2010 because of a new law that went into effect after we bought the property! 

Talk at me here.  I'm bummed.  (but soldiering on)

[ScottA]

I hate to say it but if you want this built you may need to hire a local contractor to walk your plans through. Maybe you can work a deal with him to be construction manager and let you do most of the work. Western states seem to be the worst about this sort of permitting hassles. Doesn't seem like they want this house built. I'm not dealing with permitting on mine thank goodness but I'm having fun with the hiway department the power company and the rural water district. Almost makes me want to go off grid just to spite these jerks. If you really want this done you'll need to play their game sorry to say.

[Sassy]

Wow, can't really give you any advice, but "I feel your pain, Creative!"  What a bummer - nothing like 
Well, I hope things start going smoother for you - it is like that don't want the little guy to build, so they make it so difficult to do anything - what a lot of crummy regulations!      no wonder people are tempted to build without permits, etc   

[CREATIVE1]

I hate to say it but if you want this built you may need to hire a local contractor to walk your plans through. Maybe you can work a deal with him to be construction manager and let you do most of the work. Western states seem to be the worst about this sort of permitting hassles. Doesn't seem like they want this house built. I'm not dealing with permitting on mine thank goodness but I'm having fun with the hiway department the power company and the rural water district. Almost makes me want to go off grid just to spite these jerks. If you really want this done you'll need to play their game sorry to say.

I'm hoping to accomplish the same with the local architect.  We'll see, though.  Obviously I feel uncomfortable about making any assumptions at this point, since not one thing I've done so far has been acceptable.  And, by the way, we built our own house in Tampa, Florida in the 80's, so I didn't go into this as a total greenie.

[CREATIVE1]

Wow, can't really give you any advice, but "I feel your pain, Creative!"  What a bummer - nothing like 
Well, I hope things start going smoother for you - it is like that don't want the little guy to build, so they make it so difficult to do anything - what a lot of crummy regulations!      no wonder people are tempted to build without permits, etc   

We can hope that all the (fill in your own impolite word) will happen during the permitting process and construction will go smoother.  I keep thinking about my creek and waterfalls and impossibly starry sky........

[ScottA]

It doesn't matter how much you know about building. The local guy will be able to bypass alot of these hoops just because he knows the people involved. They won't ask him as many questions as they will you.

[CREATIVE1]

Yeah, we went through that in Florida.  They are harder on owner/builders, for sure.

I'm bringing in my "crew" from Florida--my son who does foundations (and everything else), and our good friend the framing carpenter, also a jack of all trades. By the way, the labor is essentially FREE, travel expenses only.  But I'll search out some locals in the meantime, and can meet them when I go out to finalize materials in April.

[CREATIVE1]

Just got the quote from the architect.  $5500!!!  Understand, all decisions have been made.  I think I'm being charged as much as if I was starting from scratch.  He says my stairs don't meet code (that's why I changed the plans to begin with), and my original engineering is no good and needs to be scrapped.

[glenn kangiser]

This is criminal -- a person cannot build shelter for their family, a right as guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights, without paying off the criminal extortion artists.  I don't care if it is for the good of the entire world and everyone will die if the bureaucratic mafia is not paid off.  It is still criminal extortion.  America is going to hell in a handbasket.

[ScottA]

$5500 sounds pretty steep to sign off on an already designed house. I'd get a couple more quotes if I was you. And Glen's right...this is criminal.

[CREATIVE1]

BOY, do I agree.  But the problem is, I still need to be ready to build in May, because all the other wheels are in motion.  Any suggestions other than going postal?  I want to start posting pretty pictures on Countryplans!!!

I will OF COURSE talk to other architects.

[glenn kangiser]

May be worth a trip up there to handle it personally.  Try to be a PITA in a nice manner if you can pull that off.  That's all I can suggest.

[Willy]

Sounds like tipical West Side of the Mountain Run Around! That is how they treat you in King County Land of the Librals who have all these different rules to get money out of you. That is one of the reason I moved to the East Side of the Mountains. I can get a permit in a few months complete with approved plans and if I went over there it could take up to a year and so many different people having there fingers in the pot it isn't funny. They have more voted in regulations to stop development it isn't funny anymore!! Worst part is there is so many people cramed into a little section of Washington State they try to control the rest of the 95% land mass. I live in the biggest County (Okanogan) but we only have a tiny voting recourse to work with. It is mass people that count living in little appartments, condos and city lots not the farmers, cattle ranchers and such living on 40-1000 acres of land. One day it will collasp in on them and they will never know what hit them. Mark

[CREATIVE1]

If you saw the community I'm moving to you would be even more amazed at all the red tape!  Six hundred mostly seasonal residents, and that's in the developed part of the community.  Trailers and crappy houses.  It's just starting to go upscale, and I think that's why I'm being "victimized" here.  I'm on a gated mountain that's 99% woods. The aerial view of our place is astounding--it's the only cleared area you can see. You can't see my house from any angle, even in the winter, and I am the only one on the mountain(out of maybe six people)  with septic and a well.  A narrow 1/4 mile road that's going to make construction tricky is the only way in.  No one else will ever live on that road.  Its as much as 200 feet up on one side and 100 feet down to a gorge with a creek on the other.  This is just crazy.

I looked at your Okanagon area too, by the way---really nice.  But we're older and my husband has some medical issues so I needed to be closer to civilization.

[CREATIVE1]

May be worth a trip up there to handle it personally.  Try to be a PITA in a nice manner if you can pull that off.  That's all I can suggest.

We did that in late October.  Talked to a number of people in the building department, went over the paperwork, and thought we were in O.K. shape.  Yeah, that worked.

[Woodswalker]

First, let me state that I believe I am well qualified to make the following remarks.  I was a senior hydrologist with the MN Dept of Natural Resources for over 10 years, and ran the statewide Shoreland Management Program for nearly a decade.  Upgraded the state minimum standards for shorelands, and helped write the state septic system standards.

Your property is in Mason County, which is, in my opinion, the root of the problem.  Much of the development that county has allowed over the years on its lakes, and especially along the Hood Canal (really a fjord), is atrocious.  It all relies upon onsite sewage systems, many of which are little more than seepage pits.  Most of the lots are way too small to have room for a properly functioning septic tank and drainfield.  Large numbers of them were built many years ago as seasonal recreation cabins and have now been converted to year-round residential use.  In some areas folks bought narrow strips of land between a road and the water, and then hauled and dumped large amounts of fill into the water to create "buildable" sites.  Hood Canal has, in recent years, experienced several significant fish kills due to low levels of dissolve oxygen in the water at certain times.  A qualified, multi-agency group of experts that looked into the problem concluded that malfunctioning sewage systems were most likely the greatest contributer to the problem.  The County's response has been to call for more studies, and to crack down more on new development.  Thorough evaluation of the thousands of existing systems, and mandatory upgrading has not happened.  Local politics and fear of losing tax revenues play a major role.

Other background matters at play here, in addition to the DO problem, are dwindling runs of salmon, resident orcas (killer whales) in trouble, and the close proximity of Olympic National Park.  Also, Lake Cushman is a reservoir on a branch of the Skokomish River, which is the most flood-prone river in WA.  Additionally this area experienced a fairly destructive recent earthquake (Nisqually Quake of '01).  There is now mounting pressure from the federal and state governments on the local governments to do a better job.  Unfortunately that is a big change to make for a county that has a history of lax environmental concern and management.  Doesn't surprise me that they are jacking you around with your plans.  After all, you don't vote there!

My advice is to document all your contacts with the County well, and spend some $'s on a good attorney rather than more architects.  A good lawsuit would cost the County real $'s, and maybe some bad PR.  I've seen even the threat of one work many times before in similar situations.

Ok, I'm stepping down now from my soapbox.  Keep plugging away with your plans, and when you get stepped on, bite back!

Steve

 

[CREATIVE1]

Wow, hadn't even considered an attorney.  And you're certainly right about all the water issues in our area.  Ran into it all when I got the property because of Dow Creek.  If the structures, well and septic, etc. weren't grandfathered in, the property couldn't have been developed.  I had to get several reports right up front that documented my ability to build there. That's also why we'll always be the only people on that road.

I love my mountain, my creek, my woods, and the various creatures that live there.  I want to clean up the tires and other trash that have washed down from above (mostly from ill-advised shoreline fixes) and keep my property as pristine and natural as possible. iT'S WORTH THE FIGHT.  MANY THANKS for the heads up.  Keep that soapbox handy.

[CREATIVE1]

An interesting update.

I have been talking to everyone and his brother after doing a google search.  This is what I've come up with so far.

A company in Washington will get my plans ready for permitting for a flat fee of $1,600.00. They guarantee acceptance.  I can look at 3-D walkthroughs and get other info by using his program Autodesk, which I've already downloaded.  Communication is important, as I'm 3,000 miles away.

Ross Chapin has a house, the Egret, http://www.rosschapin.com/Plans/Cottage/Egret/Egret.html that is already engineered for Washington.  It's a little smaller than my version of the Victoria, but the layout works for my property. I've contacted the engineer to see if the engineering meets my snow load requirements.  If so, I may go with this at a total cost of maybe $1,500.00.

I also am waiting for a reply from a company that designs your project and also provides trusses and other materials, supposedly at a good savings. 

The septic issue is still up in the air, but I'm working on it.

[MikeT]

Hmmm.  Lots of this sounds familiar with what I experienced here on the Oregon coast.  I can sympathize.  I guess my advantage is living 2 hrs by car away. 

I am doing the VC and am planning on putting in sprinklers.  I dealt successfully with septic, architectural changes, and engineering.  I am not an expert on any of these, but I was able to get my plans successfully submitted. 

Be aware of my experience with putting up smaller structures (accessory structures) that do not fall under permit requirements.  I started putting up a 180 sf builders shed but the county made me remove it because I didn't have a permit to build a primary residence yet.  Accessory means accessory to something!

If it is helpful to chat via the phone to discuss a strategy, I am amenable... I am three hours away and could potentially do some sleuthing around for you.

mt 

mt

[John Raabe]

Pat has certainly had a steep challenge here.

Thanks for all the insights and alternatives suggested by other members.

What's the saying??? "It's always darkest just before... it goes completely black"?

[CREATIVE1]

Thanks, everyone!   I get the best ideas here, and support, and humor, and everything.  COUNTRYPLANS FOREVER!

[John_C]

"It's always darkest just before... it goes completely black"?

I like that one.  It goes with my other favs.
"Time wounds all heals"    and
"When all was said and done, much was said but little was done".

[CREATIVE1]

More great stuff--


AND ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH PASSED OUR SEPTIC SYSTEM!!!!!!!!  The paperwork is on the way.

[akdreamin]

I feel for you and the red tape.  Up here in rural Fairbanks, it is the wild west of building.  There is no building department outside the actual city limits of Fairbanks.  I built my entire project without one muncipal building inspector nitpicking my work.  I did hire a private inspector because the bank required it and for resale.

[CREATIVE1]

I feel for you and the red tape.  Up here in rural Fairbanks, it is the wild west of building.  There is no building department outside the actual city limits of Fairbanks.  I built my entire project without one muncipal building inspector nitpicking my work.  I did hire a private inspector because the bank required it and for resale.

I guess the lesson is, don't just assume that being off grid and in a community with small cabins means that you aren't under the same rules as people with Mcmansions.  And the rules can change quickly.  We talked to a couple of other people building cabins there, and their experience was much more laid back.