Leaking sliding glass doors

[Drew]

Hi all,

We've got a few sliding glass doors that are letting the rain in from the top.  A few months ago I would have called a few contractors and asked for estimates, especially since it's an exterior repair.  Now I'll do some checking with you folks first.

The doors went in about 6 years ago.  Water is coming in slowly on the tops and warping the trim.  The outside siding is lap board made of some sort of wood composite (From Weyerhaeuser, I think.).  I've caulked the edges of the siding, but it still comes in.  The roof was recently redone and the flashing up there is new, so I don't think it's coming down through there.

My instinct is to wait for it to stop raining, open the siding, caulk around the door, and close it back up.  I'll look above the door for evidence that it's falling in from higher up than the top of the door (Like from the roof). 

I am thinking, though, that I might have trouble getting at the door if the flange (I imagine it has a flange of some sort) sits behind the siding.  I don't want to rip out all the siding and have to replace it.  Well, if I do I need to prepare for that.

What would you folks do?  What should I look for?

Thanks again for the advice.

Drew

[glenn kangiser]

Where is the water showing up, Drew - Inside or outside?  Or is it the outside trim that is failing?

Also - are they aluminum frames that could sweat from condensation - the warm moist air- cold frame - dew point thing?  Being near the ocean there would be lots of moisture in the air.

Sounds like improper flashing or possibly they used some paper type flashing that is failing. 

I think you are right, that you first need to get a good look at where it might be failing - where the leak appears - entry point would be above.  PEG says think like rain.  He is our flashing expert - come to think of it he is our expert with all building stuff -- which he volunteers because he likes to share the knowledge and he's such a good guy.

[Drew]

The water is showing up inside, Glenn.  I believe they are vinyl frames, but I will check when I get home.

There are six in all (All on the south side, all facing GGNRA land.  You'd do it too.), three on the top floor and three on the bottom floor. They are all exactly the same and in two rows of three.  Some are worse than others.  The worst is on the bottom floor - I'll take another look around tonight looking for any other patterns.

There's a narrow deck that spans the length of the house on the top floor.  It's above the three sliding doors on the  bottom floor.  I'll take a look at it from the rain's perspective as you suggest and see what I see.

Theoretically the upper floor should get more rain than the bottom floor since it does not have the deck above it.  However, we get lots of wind which might push the rain on the bottom doors, up under the deck, and through some open space into the wall.  Hmm.

We're redoing a bathroom to get the place ready to sell in 2 years.  Why wait, right?  Sunny days are for farm work anyway.  The place was built in 1954 for returning vets along with 400 others in one big hurry.  I take out a medicine cabinet and look into the plumbing wall.

"&*^!!#@, Dan, you have to see this!" I say to my wife (She's leading the bathroom work.).

"What?  What?"  she says.

"Look at this slacker job in here.  I can't believe it!"

Now I'm not a plumber and I don't know the standards and practices of 1954 on the Pacific Coast.  I just get the feeling that tape, wire,  nails, stressed pipes, and wild angles were probably not it.  Even if I'm wrong on some of that stuff, it sure inspired me to do more work on my own.

[MountainDon]

Was the siding installed new after the doors were installed? Or was the siding there already and the new doors installed in the old wall openings?

Got a picture or two??

The problem MTL stems from improper flashing. Rain can drive water into places you and the installer might not believe.

You may have to remove some siding to see just what is under it. Like Glenn said, and PEG has reiterated so often, think like water. You want water to flow over laps, to go in an outward direction. Even then capillary action can draw water up behind a flange; that's why there needs to be caulking under them.

G/L and let us know/see what you find.

[jb52761]

I'm finding this post to be possibly quite helpful for alot of folks, when and if we find the problem...curiosity is killing me...and yes some pics would be helpful......I get water in the tops of my new windows in my cabin re-build, but thats my fault.....havent got the flashing/caulking done.....winter snuck up on me real quick......jb

[MountainDon]

Drew, I had a thought and question that needs clarifying. The water coming through to the inside... does it appear to be coming around the frame (between the door frame and the wall framing) or between the door frame and the fixed or sliding door??

[glenn kangiser]

Thinking about this a bit more - sounds like an improper top flashing and if that is it - then who knows about the rest.

[MountainDon]

I'm thinking that since this is a retrofit, a remodel, the flashing is probably very suspect, especially with the same problem to varying degrees with all six, same type units. And as I said earlier I think removing some siding is necessary to reveal what's there and what isn't. 

[glenn kangiser]

I think you may be right.  Wonder if he got a good contractor with an excellent warranty on his work? hmm

[MountainDon]

I read someplace online a story of finding a persistent leak like this. The house had new windows installed in an extensive remodel. One window leaked every time a driving rain hit that wall. After a couple years of trying to fix it the contractor himself, not his lackeys, went over. He pulled the siding from above and around the window. He found that the building felt above the window was under the top flange and there was no self stick flashing material in place either.  Once he corrected that it never leaked again.

[PEG688]

There's to many things that could be wrong to mention them all.

Photo's will help,

Think like rain , lead the water out , keeping in mind capillary action where wires enter the building, use a drip loop.

Maybe you have no paper , missing paper, felt or building wrap.
Don's storey about the wrong way felt happens all to often .

You have so many doors and they all leak??   

I also see it's a retro fit , many retro guys cut the flanges OFF and just screw  the frame into the framing and caulk the exterior .

That is a piss poor way to install a vinyl  door or window BUT it's done by some every day.

Check and see if there are any screws thru the frame sides on what would be the inside of the house.

I'm gonna bet you'll find some on every door and all you have for flashing is caulking , and as I've said many times caulking IS NOT flashing.

To many units that all leak make me think that's the case.

G/L PEG 

[Drew]

This is great stuff, guys.  Thanks.

I got home after dark last night, but I'll be able to get some pictures of the inside, outside, that deck above, ad the damage.  I do not have the wall open and won't until the rains stop.

The problem only happens in the driving rain

Each door has a different problem, but they are all inside problems.  Some seem to have too much water coming in through the weep holes at the bottom.  However, I've been concentrating on the biggest problem, the one I mentioned with dripping from the top.  I will go around with the benefit of your insight and get better information.  As my father is fond of saying, "OGDTAT" - "One G-- d----- thing at a time."

The wall that all six doors are on is a new wall.  My house was a 1400 sf. 1 1/2 storey cape cod and we bumped out 16' all along the back (south) wall.  Those doors went into the wall when they were built.  The 4' or so wide deck went in at the same time, too.  It's supported on 4"x4" posts on Strong Ties on poured concrete piers and bolted to the house.  There's a big bolt going through the rim joist of the deck and into the side of the house right above the most troubled door.  I don't see any caulking or any other attempt to keep water away from the hole the bolt makes nor the small space between the rim joist and the house.

I regret not getting home in time to take those pictures.  I'll take them and put them up tonight.  Sure wish I was "working from home" today. 

[MountainDon]

There's a big bolt going through the rim joist of the deck and into the side of the house right above the most troubled door.  I don't see any caulking or any other attempt to keep water away from the hole the bolt makes nor the small space between the rim joist and the house.

That's a big clue....   
We'll see if PEG or anyone has any ideas, but I think you're going to have to do some dismantling to see what's hidden. Caulk is simply a stop-gap measure. 

[Drew]

Well, here are the pictures.  None leak as bad as this one.  One other leaks from the top.  Two others leak from the bottom. 

On the ones leaking from the top the water looks like it's coming in between the door framing and the wall.  The ones leaking from the bottom appear to be getting it from the weep holes.  The driving rain is too much for them to drain back out again.

I won't get a picture of what's underneath until the rain stops.  I'm kinda funny that way.

I've left them big for detail's sake.

Here's the inside.



Here's the outside right above the door.



Here are a couple of the junction of the wall and the deck above.  You can see the bolts.

[PEG688]

YIKES  You have big problems , some of  which  will  be structural rot  judging from those photos.  All becauce some one cheated on the job. 

Sorry man,  that looks very bad!

[Drew]

This'll teach me to read stuff before going to bed.

Seriously, PEG, thanks.  The structural rot is in the deck portion, or do you see it in the wall itself?

I'll skip the question as to whether this would have been visible to a building inspector and get to the important part: What do I do now?  I imagine I need to open the wall and see what else I have.

See?  If this was a small house I could do it myself and pay cash.   

[glenn kangiser]

OGDTAT, Drew.  I'll bet you could do it if you followed your dads advice and save ton's in the process, money you could use on your farm.  How do you know you will get a better contractor next time? 

Give into the force, Drew.  You can start by checking it out.

...oh - and could a building inspector have seen it.  Do bears sh.. in the woods?   

If it was a good one he could, but many are only playing the game - worthless as tits on a boar - failed contractors who are now on a parasitic government program.  Get you on the tax rolls -- if they were really worth anything they would give you a written guarantee that what they had inspected complies with sound building practices and they put their reputation on it, but alas, they are only a cog in the wheel of the machine that only exists to relieve the public of as much hard earned cash as bureaucratically possible.

[MountainDon]

You could start the inspection at the inside of that worst case door. That would get you a look at the innards of what would more than likely be the worst wall, even if it continues to rain outside.