Vertical Log Cabin

[desdawg]

It would appear those logs were set directly on or in the ground. I have way too much termite problem to do that unless they were treated part way up. One of the problems I foresee using smallish trees is that on a small tree the taper comes pretty quickly. This could maybe be solved by alternating tops and bottoms. Also the smaller high desert trees tend to be pretty gnarly. Those logs look pretty straight but they did have a lot of low limbs. Milling two flat surfaces for the groove to allow the plywood insert may help with some of that. Having the mill will add some options for sure.
Temperatures up there are running from 20-50 degrees so I think I will sit here and talk theory for a bit longer.  

[glenn-k]

I'm pretty sure those are thick first cut slabs and they are contacting the ground.  I think they are just siding and there is a post and beam frame inside.  I didn't want to snoop too much as the place was posted.

[Amanda_931]

A plywood insert might add some more problems, unless you were using all the same kind of wood, nicely dried, roughly the same taper and size.

If I were doing this again, I'd probably try to mill the edges more or less straight up and down, then maybe caulk before I screwed them in, then put some kind of chinking in, as necessary.

From the way that barn is weathering, it's not too old, and is getting rain on the bottom foot or so.

(we put mine on a block foundation over a rubble filled trench, put the roof on posts that were a good 18" out from the foundation)

[desdawg]

Amanda, did you use native material for your rubble trench or did you have gravel delivered? Delivery at my site is difficult at best and probably pretty pricey. I have been trying to come up with alternatives that don't compromise the quality of the finished product. I have lots of native stone and have been doing some reading about stone masonry and design. But anyway I am curious about the rubble footing, the definition of rubble and how you feel about it having it in place for a while.
And I agree with you completely regarding the larger overhang of the roof. So far all of my experimentation has been with insignifcant outbuildings. When I finally get down to the actual home I want to get it right for certain.

[glenn-k]

I'll add my .02 here also. :-/

Absolutely no reason not to use local materials (except corporate lobbied rules and  regs).  Native Americans did it and there are places still standing that are 100's of years old -- mostly under some type of protection.  A rock is a rock though.  You have to break yourself away from the idea that only corporate produced materials are usable for shelter.   Then you find a lot more to work with. The corporate advertising machine has been working overtime to make us think that only corporate manufactured materials are usable for shelter.   If you are in a regulated area that may not be an option.  I really think I could be a hell of a good bum.

In this area you can always tell where the old homesteads were - rock foundation or fireplace still standing after the house is gone.

Rubble can be about any thing you can carry.  I have done a rubble foundation around 1 bathroom and piers for the shop posts with rebar carefully placed in between rocks and concrete for strength.  I averaged 6" to 12" rocks on this stuff.

Ken Kern mentions rubble footings.

[Amanda_931]

I bought crushed rock--fairly small--from a local quarry.

People told me that I wanted that specifically because of the sharp edges.  Otherwise I guess I could have gone down to the river and brought up rounded rock a bucket at a time.  People usually use a backhoe for that, but I wouldn't have had permission from property owners down at the river.

I take that back.  It wasn't the nearest quarry.  This was the stuff delivered by some poor guy who was shaking from driving his big and shiny new dump truck along the paved (that was before the biggish flood that took a hundred or so feet of asphalt out, and some local logging that did it for quite a bit more) 1 ¹/₂ lane road.  Backing into my driveway didn't help his nerves at all.  He hadn't thought about the road being that horrible before because while some buddy of his is about my 4th nearest neighbor, but he'd never taken a "real" truck to visit him.

I need to get more gravel.  Probably go with the more local guys this time.

If I could get very sandy chert, I could probably have used that.  But frequently it's much more clayey than sandy.  There are a couple of chert pits around three miles away.  People take a backhoe, and just load it into their trucks with that.

[Amanda_931]

The foundation seems to be OK after about three years.

But there's no heat in there, at least full time.

Maybe after we get a door and another window into the holes.

The roof is sitting on 4x6 posts, not the foundation.

[desdawg]

Actually I will have the ability to crush rock when I get my equipment up and running. I bought a piece of property last year that has a jaw crusher, a roll crusher, conveyor etc. on it. But it is old equipment and hasn't run in several years. I need to get it usable sometime anyway but that will take more time than I have had available. So I have the option of either using what is native on the property or spending some time on this. What I have available that is native would be more in the size range Glenn was talking about. The bottom line is I have too many projects and not near enough time. So the best thing I can do is.... start another project.  
This crushing plant is about 10 miles from where I would build so not too bad for me to haul my own in my 6 yard truck. Batching concrete is not an option. Thus my consideration of the rubble footing. As for my permit status Glenn, I have determined that I would rather beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. The big hammer the County uses is to pull your electric meter or to not allow you to get one to begin with. Since I am all solar powered and miles from a power line A) It would be a long time before anyone even noticed and B) Even the County doesn't have enough celestial influence to pull that meter. So I have been doing pretty much as I please up there. But I always try to stay pretty much to code just in case I ever have to beg for forgiveness.

[glenn-k]

I like your attitude, desdawg.  My kind of thinking.

Now we have a problem.  I would love to have a rock crusher and you already have one.  I have a buddy watching for one - he may even find one some day.  I try not to get in a hurry on things like that.  They eventually show up at a much better price than the hurry up price.

[desdawg]

This one came with 10 acres of dirt, an old POS Ford dump truck and a worn out Michigan Loader for about $28K. I have since purchased an additional 3 contiguous acres to go with it.

[glenn-k]

Great buy, desdawg.  Did you get a mine or quarry included with it?

[jraabe]

What a great project parcel. You're gonna hafta grow a Gabby Hayes beard and learn to kick things to get them started.

[Sassy]

Glenn keeps trying to grow his beard like that but I get him to trim it occasionally...   :-/

[desdawg]

John, I already have the beard and everytime I try to kick start something I hurt my foot.  

[glenn-k]

Sassy thinks we may be relatives, desdawg.  Now we find out you have a great beard too.  I guess we're just a couple of great looking manly dudes.

[desdawg]

Maybe we were born under the same sign. Or maybe it was just a full moon. I am a Feb 3, 1948 Aquarius. Old guy. 58 going on 100. that's if I don't start anymore projects. I need that much time just to finish the one's I have going already. Finished project. Is that one of them thar oxymorons?

[glenn-k]

I was born under an "Exit Only" sign.... or was it a "Do Not Enter" -- I don't remember which anymore.

6-29-51 You got me by a couple years but not much.  I always figured I'd be gone by 60 but maybe not-- like you , to many projects to take off yet.  Many of my relatives went into their ninety's - now that's something to look forward to.  40 more years of paramnesia.  Would someone hand me my brain, please.

[desdawg]

Nope, I wasn't born under either of those signs. I did have a street named after me though. Dead End it is called.

[mountainmomma]

Wow, I am so glad to have found this forum. I am now considering the vertical log building style. I hadn't given it much thought in the past. But, last summer, my boyfriend and I spent nearly 3months trying to erect a very large and heavy log gin pole wth which to lift and maneuver 26' long logs. this was a nerve wracking and stressful project. In the end, we got a chainsaw mill in hopes of milling each log flat on two sides before using the butt and pass method to put it all together. But, to be quite frank, I'm just not all that crazy about the butt and pass method. My current 12x16 log cabin is 3 sides milled butt and pass and its OK cause its so small. But, I think that when butt and pass houses get bigger than that they look sort of....manufactured or just plain old janky. The verticla og thing looks a lot cleaner and boy does it sound easier in terms of moving those logs around.
This is more of less what we've got so far...except that those logs have been notched to fit snug(ish) on the beams and havebeen milled flat on the top.
Do you think that we'd be able to do vertical logs on this existing structure? And, if so, how would one rebar the logs together? I've already got a pile of rebar and would love to use that instead of plywood if we could since its already here and won't cost anything more. how would we attach the logs to the horizontal logs?

Any advice?

[glenn-k]

Welcome to the forum.  

Yes. I think you could do it.  I assume you want to attach the vertical logs to the long horizontal logs in the picture.  Just cut the vertical logs straight on the ends leaving enough at the top for a bond beam - log of some sort at the top.  You may want to slope the sides of the existing logs a bit for water runoff and use wide eaves to keep more rain further away.

You can drill holes the nominal size of the rebar to drive pins into and oversize to set on a pin.  A nominal size hole is a tight fit with rebar.  Requires a 3 or 4 lb sledge to drive in.  I use screw tipped auger bits 16 inches long and 16" rebar pins to hold my logs together.  You can drill at a 45 degree angle also and drive pins in like toenailing.  You could straighten the sides of the vertical logs with your mill if desired - measure fron edge to center and drill a hole in the end of the vertical log then put a pin in the proper place on the horizontal log and set it on it---or simply put the vertical log in place - go up about 6 inches on the side and drill a angled hole toward the center of the vertical log where it meets the horizontal log and drive a 16 inch pin in to join the two together.  This requires a pretty heavy duty 1/2 inch drill that is reversing sometimes to get the bit out.  Reaming the hole a couple times with the same bit will help remove sawdust and make the pin go in easier -- put it in part way and pull it out while running to remove loose sawdust - continue until the hole is clean.  

By nominal I mean 1/2 inch bit for 1/2 inch rebar etc- rebar being deformed is a very tight fit in these holes.  Other sizes rebar similar 5/8 bar - 5/8 hole etc.

[mountainmomma]

Thanks for the speedy response!
So, I would use one rebar pin on each log to tie it to the horizontal log. How many "pins" do I use to tie each log to the vertical log beside it?

[glenn-k]

Nothing official here - just what works for me, but I would probably angle one over at a 45 degree angle to each next one , then when a bond beam log is put across the top horizontally, put another one from it to each of the verticals.  Tying endwalls and perpendicular interior walls to the sidewalls and bond beam will add strength - posssibly a lap joint of sorts running a beam across the center - possibly to the other side.  Maybe bottom half of sidewall beam remaining and top half of interior wall or endwall bond beam then spike the lap together.  - Like Lincoln logs for the top beams.  

Each rebar - say 1/2 inch dia should have around 10,000 lbs shear strength - rough guess - so one is pretty tough.  Pull out strength is probably less but I lifted a 500 lb or so log with one accidentally once and it didn't come out.

[desdawg]

mountainmomma, looks like you are all done except for both ends and the middle.  
I think part of the beauty of using the plywood between logs is it would seal the horizontal opening between logs and provide a verticle chink joint backing as well as maintain alignment of the logs. Something to think about. You could still use your rebar pins top and bottom as Glenn said.

[glenn-k]

Good thing someone is thinking around here.  I forgot all about that one , desdawg.  I think that could be done pretty easily with a chainsaw to cut the groove in the logs.  I did a couple places that way to get a board into the side of the vertical log to seal around standard framing.

[mountainmomma]

Hey guys,

I just wanted to sharethis picture with ya'll. We were trying to lift our 30ft. gin pole up using  a series of block and tackles eventually attached to my Ford F-250. The gin pole barely budged. But, this is what happened to the rebar that we'd pinned through the top if it. We had been hoping to hang the block and tackle off that rebar to move logs into place with. HA!