Author Topic: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joists  (Read 7181 times)

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Offline kindrngentlr13

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i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joists
« on: October 27, 2006, 12:21:00 PM »
i am only in the investigation process and gathering info at this time but im looking for info on the proper floor joists for a 2nd floor on my project.   the building is 30' across and round. i will have a 6' square wall in the center to break up the large floor space as well as to help hold the weight of the 2nd floor in the center.
any help would be appreciated!
id tell the whole story about the building but id hate to bore you, who know much more than me about construction than i do.

thank you in advance

Offline Amanda_931

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2006, 04:20:07 PM »
Chinese coin shaped floor plan??



I'd guess you break it into smaller areas and go for it.

John posted this the other day.

I'd guess you break it into smaller areas and go for it.

http://www.planhelp.com/public/98.cfm

(it's possible that a second floor might not need as much weight bearing capacity, depending on how you are planning to use it.)

Don't do what I did, and wonder how long "the span" is without scrolling down where you will find the answer.

What are your walls going to be?  Earthbag?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2006, 04:23:01 PM by Amanda_931 »

Offline kindrngentlr13

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2006, 04:09:54 PM »
actually the walls and floor are already in place, we are in the process of building our house in a grain bin.  the walls are 30' across and the bin is 30' to the beginning of the cap.  it will be a slow process as there isnt much info on the web on how to do this, but it just seems like the best way to go since its already there.  actually, there are 2 bins side by side and in very good condition.

Offline Sassy

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2006, 05:27:31 PM »
Amanda, that is a nice idea for a circular home - could almost be like a courtyard...  a central living space...  :)

Kindrngentlr13 - are you saying you already have the inside walls built?  That is an interesting idea, to use a grain bin for a home.  Great way to reuse it - I'm sure there are people here who can give you some help.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 05:28:01 PM by Sassy »
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Offline kindrngentlr13

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2006, 05:57:26 PM »
i am in the preplanning stage pretty much. trying to figure out the best way without overbuilding it.  the main portion is there (the bins themselves), i was thinking of useing the steel studs for the main portion of the inside walls with the exception of where the main support beam for the second floor.  or was playing with the idea of welding brackets on the walls to support the beamsagainst the wall.  
any ideas would be appreciated and helpfull

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2006, 08:33:17 PM »
Are the bins steel?   I'd really like to see some pictures and if we know more about your project we could help more.  I am a contractor and I work with structural steel.  Do your bins have concrete floors?  Walls are steel or?

If steel , what thickness are the walls.  We commonly weld beam brackets to steel columns for glulams or standard wood beams.   I assume you don't have to worry about building departments or inspections?

Sounds like a fun project. :)
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Offline kindrngentlr13

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 05:59:30 PM »
the bins are made of galvanized steel, the thickness is unknown right now but for the size im assuming that they are at least 3/16 if not 1/4 due to the large size and the amount of grain it would hold.
no building dept or inspections out there, the town is too small.
they are anchor bolted on the outside to a concrete slab, they have a grated floor which is bolted to the sides and interlocked together down their seams, close to a pittsburg lock if you know what i mean.

i was thinking about raising the floor about 2' so i could have a crawl space underneath. to do this i was looking at coming off the walls about 18" and up 2' so i could set steel studs which would be in place to hold the wiring, plumbing, and insulation.   then in the middle i was going to add a 6' square to help support the center of the main beam to the second floor, also to break up the large space.

does this make any sense?

Offline Amanda_931

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2006, 07:12:40 PM »
There's a straw bale chapel up in the greater Nashville, TN area with that kind of roof.  I was one of the volunteers working on it, although the ceiling and the roof were on before I knew they were building.

If I'd worked on the ceiling (think the roof was put on by people who did that), I'd probably remember how that was framed.  It may be smaller.  In any case the roof has the required overhang.

there's a picture of roughly the south side here:

http://www.penuelridge.org/whatweoffer.html

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2006, 08:44:08 PM »
kindrngentlr13, yes, makes plenty of sense to me.

Are you adding windows through the walls of the bin?

I assume you know but when cutting and welding galvanized metal have good ventilation and if possible a galvanize (zinc) fume mask or respirator.  It is very easy to get metal fume fever from it -- a few good breaths will within a few hours have you alternately freezing (gnashing your teeth) and cooking with a pretty high fever.  Milk and dairy products seem to help take it away - it won't kill you (as far as I know) but will sure get your attention. Usually a one night thing-  I've had it 3 or 4 times -- kinda sneaks up on you when you're not expecting it like a wedgie prankster. :-/
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 08:44:39 PM by glenn-k »
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2006, 09:22:58 PM »
Butler bin history.

          The Great Grain Bin Adventure

Butler Manufacturing Company introduced its first galvanized steel grain bin in 1907. By 1938 research had proven the superiority of these bins over wooden ones, and the next year the U.S. Department of Agriculture announced its intention to receive bids on delivering 30,666 steel bins needed to store excess grain from a bumper crop. This order was one and a half times more bins than had been produced the previous year by the entire industry. Guaranteed bids had to be submitted within 30 days and delivered within just 60 days of receiving an order. Butler took on the challenge and, against phenomenal odds, refurbished an abandoned plant in Galesburg, Illinois, supplied it with machinery, staffed it, and mass-produced 14,500 steel bins in 59 days, plus another 6,000 bins in just 15 days. The seemingly unachievable became achievable through Norquist's clear vision, the company's adventurous commitment, and the efforts of hundreds of motivated people. The event was a spark that began to shape what Butler Manufacturing Company is today.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 09:23:23 PM by glenn-k »
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Offline Doug Martin

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2006, 05:37:07 AM »
Quote
The seemingly unachievable became achievable through Norquist's clear vision, the company's adventurous commitment, and the efforts of hundreds of motivated people.

Not to mention the amazing inate intelligence and ability of the area residents.

(I was born 40 miles from Galesburg  ;D)

This looks like a very cool project.  You have to put a skywalk between the two silos.  I'd also think about framing the inside as an hexagon or an octagon offset a bit from the walls for insulation value.

I've been inside the same type of silo in the middle of summer at my grandma's farm -- it was hot in there.

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2006, 06:24:44 AM »
Quote
Quote
The seemingly unachievable became achievable through Norquist's clear vision, the company's adventurous commitment, and the efforts of hundreds of motivated people.

Not to mention the amazing inate intelligence and ability of the area residents.

(I was born 40 miles from Galesburg  ;D)

This looks like a very cool project.  You have to put a skywalk between the two silos.  I'd also think about framing the inside as an hexagon or an octagon offset a bit from the walls for insulation value.

I've been inside the same type of silo in the middle of summer at my grandma's farm -- it was hot in there.


We have friends in Knoxville and my brother-in-law is from there.  We went to my daughter's wedding there  and visited the Carl Sandburg house museum.  Still can't figure out the poetry though.

Possibly vents could be added on the roof to cut down on the heat.  I don't know that it would matter if they are closeable as the metal will transfer cold in the winter -mighty cold - it might stop the breezes though.  

I don't know if there is grain dust in there or not but if you have to clean it out remember that grain dust is explosive in the right proportions  if it gets air born and gets lit.
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Offline kindrngentlr13

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2006, 06:30:25 AM »
there is very little grain fragments left inside but as i pull up the grated floor im using a vac to get that and the dirt out.  i have snorted enough galvanize fumes in my time to know better then to want to snort anymore.   my only question is, is there a special kind of bracket i can get for this or do i have to make them from scratch?  i dont think the store bought brackets would take the heat.
im planning to make the inside walls as round with the bin as possible, after i have it framed, wires pulled, plumbing in, i am going to attempt to spray foam poly as my insulation. the same style that the mono domes use.  the energy savings, cost of product, installation time, and lack of food for rodents seems ideal.
it will be a slow go with, time, money, and just me working on it, so ill just have to be industrious in how i lift the heavy framing for the second floor.
the current access doors are to small so i plan on cutting them out, i have 3 old bins inside some trees, probly '50s models or so. they have larger doors so i want to install those.  also, want to add a 2 story hallway between the grain bins with double doors as a intreway,  this space will also have the staircase to access the 2nd floor.

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2006, 06:54:44 AM »
I have welded the heavy Simpson hangers in a couple of situations but they are very expensive.

If you weld you could make your own brackets similar to the ones used in commercial buildings - they have about a 1/4" x 8 x 10 side plate each side and about a 1/2 inch bottom plat for the beam - the beams have through bolts.  They are usually designed by an engineer and welded by certified welders -inspected by a special inspector.  That is the CYA stuff - if you have any questions regarding your abilities I have to say do the recommended procedure.

You could set a column or post under each beam end also rather than brackets.

There are special tracks for steel studs that will make any shape you want including a circle.  They could also be welded to the side of the bin with small rod ar a small wire feeder.


This is one supplier- I don't know them.

http://www.dietrichindustries.com/whatsnew/default.asp



Okie Bob used Icynene insulation sprayed on - he loves it.
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Offline paul s

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2006, 09:06:32 AM »
nice idea  would be great to have two about 2 feet in diameter in difference and  put one inside the other and insulate between

warm and tosty

Offline kindrngentlr13

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2006, 05:43:15 PM »
all i have been able to find so far are the standard simpsons, so i was thinking about welding a couple pieces of 1 1/2 x 3/16 angle to some 3 x 1/4 plate, predrill the angle to except screws for the wood. then weld that to the wall. depending on where the bracket end up hitting the wall for the heigth, i might end up adding some self tapping screws to add to the strength.
thanks for all the ideas youve given me so far glenn, this week im going out there to start tearing out the grated floor, possibly have time to start taking out the auger.  

the last time we were out there we spotted something we dont want to see anymore of, just thought id share this with you.

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2006, 06:06:59 PM »
Nice snake -- looks yummy - we BBQ'd about a 3 or 4 foot rattler a couple years ago.

No problem on the ideas - I like to do projects like the one you are doing.

As Baldasare Forestiere put it, "To make something with lots of money that is easy— But to make something out of nothing... now that is something." :)
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Offline PEG688

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2006, 06:21:31 PM »
That must be some stickly snake to be able to crawl inverted like that :o ;D
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2006, 06:38:19 PM »
I thought something looked funny about that snake. :-/
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Offline kindrngentlr13

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2006, 05:44:17 AM »
i still dont know how he got down the wall without falling in the water of that old cistern. but rather have him there then visiting with me.  

Offline kindrngentlr13

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2006, 05:44:35 AM »
i still dont know how he got down the wall without falling in the water of that old cistern. but rather have him there then visiting with me.  

Offline kindrngentlr13

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2006, 09:50:04 AM »
does anyone have any thoughts on gutter systems that would fit the curve of the roof that i have? this would probly have to be customs from somewhere wouldnt it?

matt

Offline Amanda_931

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Re: i could use some help on 2nd floor floor joist
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2006, 05:52:40 PM »
Curved gutters, or radius gutters are available, apparently without doing some sort of weird very home-made fiberglass/EPDM rubber affair.

Here's the frst thing that turned up:

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tvprograms/asktoh/qaarticle/0,16588,564446,00.html

Quote
Fortunately, curved gutters — called “radius” gutters in the trade — are still available. In a city the size of yours there’s likely to be someone who will fabricate them — I’d even try metal fabricators who work on churches and schools. If you can’t find a local source, however, at least two companies in the U.S. can ship radius gutters to you, either in unbroken lengths or in 3-foot sections (Hans Liebscher Custom Copper Works and Sheet Metal Inc., www.hansliebschercopperwks.com; or OrnaMetals LLC, www.ornametals.com). You have a choice of profiles, too: K-style, box, and half-round.

Specialty products like this are expensive, but this isn’t the place to go cheap. If you pay now to do this work properly, you won’t have to pay over and over again for repairs down the road. Best of all, your house will look as good as it should.

And here was the 2nd one.

http://www.coppercraft.com/drainage.htm



« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 06:01:48 PM by Amanda_931 »

 

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