Author Topic: fire suppression  (Read 430 times)

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Offline busted knuckles

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fire suppression
« on: April 15, 2018, 07:05:15 AM »
I have a water tank, about 750 gal. I am looking at a honda gas water pump for fire emergencies.Just not sure which one. Looking for some advice from someone with experience. Honda makes a few. Just wondering which one would be best for this application.  I could ask the honda dealership, but I find it hard to believe sales people. I was planning on running a 1" hose.
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Offline hpinson

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2018, 09:24:20 AM »
Whatever you choose, give it a start monthly and either feed it gas with no ethanol, or change out the gas every few months.  It's no good if it won't start or has fuel line problems. Even my eu2000 has periodic issues starting if I don't drain the carb after usage and let it sit too long.

I looked at this page - you would go through a 750 gallon tank very quickly with the higher capacity ones - I would think the WX 15, or WB 20, or the WH 15 or 20  would be a good match for your tank.  The WH series seems to have a higher pressure output. Anything larger is just going to blow through your water supply in a matter of two minutes. Since they are pushing the water horizontally, you should have some range through a 1" or 2" hose.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2018, 11:11:15 AM »
FWIW, the type 6 fire engines of the US Forest Service ( very often seen based on a Ford F350) use pumps that put out over 100 PSI, a minimum of 150 PSI at 100 GPM, IIRC. That is in part because they want to be able to push the water through a very long hose. You may not need the ability to push water a hundred feet or more, but that does enter into the specs on the pump. I believe higher altitudes downgrade pumping capacities too. Those pumps also cost 5 to 6 times as much as a Honda, though to be fair they are in a different class.

Your hose will have a nozzle to control flow so the pump will only deliver what you allow to pass through the nozzle. A high GPM rating on a pump does not mean you will use that rate. Higher pressures permit throwing the water greater distances;can keep the operator at a safer distance.

I'd go with the WH20 for most PSI, I believe the WX series can also be used for hose and nozzle use.  Not sure though. .
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Offline busted knuckles

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2018, 12:51:00 PM »
Thanks for the advice. I definitely want to maintain the pump, gas, oil, run it for a while, on a regular basis. I think I will go for the wh20. I dont need that long of a hose, but being as far from the flames would be nice.
you know that mugshot of Nick Nolte? I wish I looked that good.

Offline DaveOrr

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2018, 03:23:53 PM »
My system is set to pump from the lake through 200' of 2" irrigation hose up to my cabin.
Inside the cabin will be a 1000 gallon holding tank for use in the cabin. Using gate valves I'll be able to turn off the tank fill and direct the flow to the suppression system. From there I can direct to the roof (twin 1 1/4" Rainbird agricultural sprinklers) or to a stand pipe mounted on the back wall to connect to a fire hose. Flow can also be split between the two but flow rates will be effected.

I purchased a fire pump from Princess Auto that runs a Honda GX 200 motor.

https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/emergency-pump-kit/A-p8518250e

I'm hoping this will work like I think it will.  :)

OH, and one piece of advice. Always run fuel stabilizer in your fuel as well as getting the ethanol free stuff.  ;)
Dave's Arctic Cabin: www.anglersparadise.ca

Offline hpinson

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 06:18:26 AM »
Would a short intense burst of water through a large hose or a more sustained but smaller flow be better for fire suppression?

I ask because I am in a similar situation - tank is setup, but I never completed the delivery part of it.

Offline kbaum

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 07:08:46 AM »
I would say check with the local volunteer fire department in your area on what would be the best option for your situation.  You can always look at what equipment they use for your area.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 02:56:33 PM »
I think short bursts vs longer stream may be decided by how much water is available. In 2009 when the forest service had fire crews converged on our mountain property because the neighbor had a fire go out of control, the first crew arrivals used a lot of short bursts directed right at the fire's base, from as close as they could comfortably approach. They had type 6 engines with 300 gallons. As more engines came they became more free with their water use.

So, it depends I guess. The fire crews also did a lot of turning over the fuel load on the ground as they sprayed water in bursts.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline Dave Sparks

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2018, 05:06:42 PM »
In my opinion the pump needs to be electric and if funds are there a back-up fossil fuel pump.
We have 3 electric pumps for fire because we have been attacked too many times :-\
The best defense in my opinion is 1/2 of the house needs to be able to survive without needing water for pre fire spray-down.
The other side you defend and go inside when the fire is bad. You then go inside and after it passes go out and fight the spot fires.
This is what I tell my clients and it is their choice to not evacuate when the order is out!
Many wildfires never get an engine to remote houses until after the fire has passed :(
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 05:34:12 AM by Dave Sparks »
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Offline JRR

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2018, 04:21:26 AM »
Forgive me for making an offering on a subject I know almost nothing about.  In the event of a fire, I would rather not depend on anything to have to "start-up" or "run"!  That rules out water pumps with any kind of motor.  What then?  Stored Energy!  So that means having the water stored with enough energy to do a fire snuffing task.  A tower would work ... say 1000 gallons mounted atop a 75' tower.  Non-combustible tower.  Steel, or better yet ; concrete.  Wow, what will the neighbors think?  Let's try again.....

So what (else) might work that would not be quite so intimidating.  I think of large (propane) pressure storage tanks.  Commercial propane tanks probably have a working pressure of 500 psi or more.  Use one (or more) storage tanks to store compressed air.    Buy a small air compressor that cuts off at 150, or maybe 200, psi.   The compressor can be used conservatively, avoiding high wear, to fill and (eventually) top off the tank with compressed air.  On the tank top have shut off valves, pressure gauges, and air regulator that supply air through a PEX hose over to the ....

....top of a second pressure storage tank.  This tank is used for water storage.  The water is fed out the bottom through a shut off valve to a hose bib.  Install hose.

You are now ready to fight fire with an energized, charged, system that you don't have to "start".  The hose could be left pressurized, but I would not do that ... you might have a surprise with a broken hose and empty system.  The compressor could be left running and connected, but if there are no leaks ... that's not necessary.   If liquid filled pressure gauges are installed at critical locations ... an occasional inspection should give you some sleep.

I would think that the air regulator, that supplies air to push the water along, could be set at 80 psi, or so.  80 psi of water through a 3/4" garden hose is quite a squirt!   But experimentation will find the best set-up for you.  Though the tanks may be a bit pricey, I think this design would be very cost effective overall.  You may be able to buy tanks that are no longer suitable for propane storage ... that may be useful for water storage.  I don't know.  A phone call to a tank seller will be worthwhile.

??
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 05:55:01 AM by JRR »

Offline Dave Sparks

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Re: fire suppression
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 07:14:24 AM »
Gravity is great! We get about 40 psi from it. In a wildfire most need more and since the power system is an offgrid system, electric pumps are reliable and can shoot water 80 feet up or so with a 3/4" garden hose.

 Whatever you do it needs to be easy, redundant, and reliable.   You just won't have that much time if the fire originates near you >:(

All of the normal things to harden a home from fire like metal outside deck chairs with removable cushions, Zero fire ladders within 100 or more feet,
Limbed up 15 foot all trees, and the other basics to make it defensible.

One of our wildfires I was out traveling (I do not do this now during summer) when I came home the only way I knew that someone was here was my metal chase lounge was out by my flag pole.  I could see tracks from a wild land fire engine where he broke loose some gravel. They used my ac power outlet to charge cell phones or ? The outdoor socket was open...

It is so bad in the South West now that fire season begins a week after the last rain :(
"we go where the power lines don't"