Colorado mountains permit and plan issues

Started by Gillnetter, September 26, 2016, 01:25:27 PM

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Gillnetter

First time caller, long time listener to the board. Been lurking for about 1.5 years now, and decided I would only start posting when I actually got into my project. Well, I have bought land about 45 miles west of Colorado Springs in the mountains, and am now beginning the building permitting process, and it has been a less than positive experience. I already purchased the Builder's Cottage plans, and was planning on probably upgrading to the Victoria's Cottage plans because 16'x28' seems like the perfect size first house for me to build. In my Builder's Cottage plans, John Raabe states that you can often get around requirements for an engineer's approval if you are willing to work with the building inspector and make adjustments. Well, unfortunately the county I am working with has thrown the book at me requiring engineer's approval on my foundation, septic, and framing structure plans. The dept secretaries literally won't even let me speak to a building inspector until I have everything engineer approved and stamped ($$$$!). That building inspector job must be pretty cushy to have everything stamped by an engineer at the cost of the owner-builder before getting to his desk for approval!

The problem is, the engineer's I have spoken to for estimates on how much all this will cost have told me that they can almost guarantee me that any plans I purchased off the internet will not be approved, and I need to have plans professionally drawn up by a local draftsman. Here I was, trying to fulfill my dreams of building a small inexpensive home, and the Building Dept tells me I need to pay the engineers, who tell me I have to pay the architects, who will probably tell me I can't build it myself. I think it will be over $12,000 in engineers and permits before I even get to break ground on something as simple as the Builder's Cottage. The engineers tell me that snow loads in the mountains negate basically all house framing plans from the internet, and that I'll need roof trusses and such. Does anyone have any feedback here? I feel like roof trusses will encroach drastically on the loft headroom. I really wanted to try and build a home for low cost, and with plans from this forum because I have read so much on it, but at this point the project seems pretty grim before it even starts, with permitting and engineers and architects costing about as much as the house. I'd still be willing to purchase the Victoria's Cottage plans if they only need minor adjustments for heavy snow loads. Any advice is appreciated, thanks!  d*

MountainDon

The parts of CO in the mountains do get a lot of snow. Often measured in feet, not inches. So roof structures will most often need some engineering. However that may come from the truss manufacturer. Most places, a truss company will supply the papers once they have the exact location of the project, they design for the expected snow load. Heavy snow loads are easier to design for when using trusses; in other words a design that does not have a loft may be easier.  The second way to handle high snow loads is to build with a ridge beam. Beam not board. Again the beam manufacturer can handle the engineering with the purchase of the beam. A beam will require proper load path down to the fojndation. Middle support posts can reduce the cross sectionof the beam. A ridge beam can give you your loft space.

The other part that might require engineering is the foundation. A foundation built according to the prescriptive IRC (building code) may get around the need for an engineer. Forget about piers. They are not listed in thecodes. Soils in some places may need engineering. In the western mountains soil and snow conditions can vary a lot within just a few miles.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


hpinson

I wonder if it might be worth contacting some local builders and asking if there are any existing engineered/ stamped plans that have been approved locally, and built, that could be re-used or modified. You are not the only person who builds a small cabin up there.

Does anyone know if John's plans have been built in Colorado, as an argument/ comparison to present to the County?

That is a part of Colorado that is not so owner-builder friendly.  I don't think it is going to improve either.  The whole Colorado Springs / Denver West area is very oriented towards big-money builds.  Ever the frustration for the owner builder with a limited budget, who wants an uncomplicated small dwelling.

Some people have been getting around requirements by building tiny houses on trailers, but even that is changing and becoming regulated. I understand some Colorado Counties are even forbidding trailer dwelling, even on owned property. I remember a big production about that near Steamboat Springs a few years back.

Don is right about the snow loads up there.  Whatever roof system you use, needs to stand up to a very heavy snow load.

scody311

Gilnetter, what county?
I am trying to build in Park County (near Hartsel/Fairplay)...
I have purchased the 1.5 story 30X20 plans.

Maybe we can commiserate together...

MountainDon

#4
Friends built in Teller County. (Next county west of El Paso county which is the one surrounding Colorado Springs.) He just confirmed that a soil report was needed and it had to be have been done within the last 12 months. A wet stamp (original ink stamp) was required.

They drew their own floor plan and the engineer worked the foundation off that. The foundation and floor and roof plans had to be wet stamped, but not the framing plans for the walls. The floor and roof were engineered trusses, hence the requirement. Energy code had to be met as well; resChek was used to verify. He also mentioned there was a driveway plan required.

Note that engineers must be certified to practice in CO. If you live in another state an engineer from there may not have the CO license.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.


Gillnetter

Holy mackerel, a reply from MountainDon! That's like having Bill Murray respond to you or something- I shall write it down in my diary tonight. (jk, of course) Not surprising though since from what I've read he's in northern New Mexico (I went to New Mexico Tech for 3 years, a bit familiar with the region), and New Mexico and Colorado have a lot of similarities. That is a great recommendation on calling the beam and/or truss manufacturer's, and going from there- I shall heed this advice. I don't mind a couple middle support posts on the beam either if it means I get the loft space overall and painless engineer approval. I actually just got my driveway permit approved, that was super easy so that's a positive sign. For the foundation, I knew they'd scrap the post and pier idea, so I'm going to try to sell them on a DryStacked foundation when the time comes. I'm trying to do as much as possible on my own, not just to save my hard earned dollars but also to embrace the whole process, and I feel like I could do a DryStack on my own. The land I bought is also in Teller County, btw.

hpinson - Good call, I shall try calling local builder's if it turns out the Victoria's Cottage won't work with Mountain Don's ideas. Although I feel like after I've invested so much time reading on this website, I would like to build my first house with my own two hands using one of John Raabe's plans if possible. I have that dream for a while now, and it feels close. If not, I guess it's back to the drawing board!

scody311 - I'm in Teller County, the city is Florissant. I'm originally from Illinois, but a bit of a nomad, and I fell in love with this property in Florissant for my first build after looking at many around the country. I haven't heard any horror stories about the building codes in Park County yet, mainly just about Douglas, Denver and El Paso counties. From what I understand, Teller County is relatively tame by comparison to those three, and I should count my blessings. To be honest, my experience with the county officials has been pleasant, with the exceptions being that they won't let me talk to inspectors preliminarily, and they require engineers to sign off on just about everything ($$$). Other than that, the fact that the local electric co-op (IREA) threw me an estimate of about $6000 to run a power line less than 100' from an existing pole that is on my property line was a tough pill to swallow as well. But, this is my first build (hopefully of a few), and I will learn a lot from these experiences. I'm definitely open to talk turkey if you'd like some time... Did you get the 20'x30' 1.5 story plans approved as-is? That's a bit larger than I planned on building for my first one, but possibly I'd consider if it were easily approved for heavy snow loads (of which, I'm having trouble finding my location's snow load spec on the internet).

Thanks for the responses! I'll keep posting with what I hear back. When I actually get my building permits approved and break ground, I'm going to start a project thread. Very exciting!  ;D

MountainDon

Florissant!  We've driven through many times; this July the latest. We've had a family camping get together in Mueller and Eleven Mile State Parks a few times and also have stayed at the Lake George private campground. Nice country.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Gillnetter

I am honestly just getting to know the area of Florissant, but so far it has been gorgeous. I saw what looked to be some quality whitewater rafting nearby in Pike Natl Forest with fly fishermen along the banks, and have seen a lot of rock climbing nearby as well. Park County had the most amazing descent into a basin valley from a mountain range I've ever driven through, and that's also a few miles from me. Very much looking forward to moving into the region.

Just noticed that the Victoria's Cottage has a ridge beam, so may be in luck with that plan! Will look into it and start calling suppliers tomorrow.

Dave Sparks

I have some solar clients in the area. They ended up having a local builder build them a shell and they finished it.
The shell is a lockable structure that is water tight but not finished on the inside. All of the painting, trim, drywall,finish plumbing, rough and finish electrical is done by you or someone you hire. It can save alot but certainly not as much as doing it all yourself.
You may be able to work with the builder and save more. Good Luck!
"we go where the power lines don't"