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Offline Medeek

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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #850 on: May 12, 2019, 09:37:51 PM »
The birds mouth cut algorithm (and code) is now functional however I can't say I'm completely satisfied with it yet.

For example take a look at this scenario:



You have a 8:12 and 7:12 meeting almost at the corner of the building (skew is minimal) however the plate height is 2" higher on the 7:12 side and my algorithm cuts the birds mouth per the highest plate height at the corner. 

In this particular case it would seem to make more sense to cut the birds mouth at the lower plate height otherwise not enough meat is left in the hip rafter.  This algorithm may need further refinement to really make it meaningful and useful to the designer.

The other option of course is to simply not cut the birds mouth in the hips rafters and leave it to the user to determine what or how they want to handle the intersection at this critical junction.

The soffit cut in the case of a hip roof is actually quite simple (surprisingly).  Since the fascia lines up all the way around the roof the soffit cut will also be the same height for all jacks, commons and hip rafters.
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson, P.E.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #851 on: May 13, 2019, 07:28:22 AM »
The soffit cut function is now active for hips, jacks and commons:



Now I will see if I can break the module, I'm sure there is some state or configuration that I haven't considered that may throw some errors.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #852 on: May 13, 2019, 05:57:54 PM »
Version 2.3.7 - 05.13.2019
- Enabled asymmetric hip rafter roofs (imperial and metric units).



The most degenerate version of the asymmetric hip roof would be a pyramid roof.  The roof shown below is a pyramid roof that is actually an asymmetric roof, as you can see the algorithms degenerate gracefully as they should:



Items for future work include the ability to toggle the configuration where the sheathing centers up on the ridge board or not.

Another outstanding item is ceiling joists.  I'm not even sure what do with ceiling joists yet for an asymmetric hip as there could possibly be four different ceiling joist heights.

I would also like to switch everything to HTML menus.  The initial draw menu is still using the default SU GUI.  Due to its limitations you can only initially create symmetric hip roofs but then you can edit them to switch them to an asymmetric configuration.  I will explain this further in an upcoming tutorial video.  Once I switch to an HTML draw menu this limitation will be resolved.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #853 on: May 13, 2019, 06:25:51 PM »
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson, P.E.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #854 on: May 13, 2019, 10:18:18 PM »
I've fixed a few small bugs with the jack rafters near the corners and re-released the plugin.

When the jack rafters approaches a corner and then the overhang portion of the roof the various permutations in the way the jack rafter is beveled or cut becomes quite interesting.  With a regular symmetric hip roof the possible configurations is more limited and predictable however the asymmetry lends itself to additional cases, so more conditionals are required in the code to account for them.

I've ran some additional checks to try and ferret out these additional configurations and then provide the appropriate logic to handle them, however there may still be a few that may have eluded my best efforts.  This module is new so there may still be a few fires yet.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #855 on: May 14, 2019, 01:25:20 PM »
Tutorial 15 - Asymmetric Hip Roofs:



In this video I try to explain how each roof plane can be adjusted and the toggling between auto calculating the overhang or the top plate height. 

Looking at hip roof again this afternoon it occurred to me that it probably would be useful to have the ability to specify the depth of each hip rafter individually and for a symmetric roof the ability to specify the hip rafter depth  independent of the common rafter depth.  Yet another item to add to this module's todo list.

I also need to update the estimating module for this roof type (symmetric and asymmetric), the quantity and length of each jack rafter would be useful information.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 05:15:15 PM by Medeek »
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #856 on: May 14, 2019, 06:35:17 PM »
Giving some thought to the secondary roof tool:

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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #857 on: May 15, 2019, 01:40:24 PM »
Trying to come up with an intuitive method for specifying a secondary roof.  My idea is for the user to select the wall corners (1) and (2) that the projecting (secondary) roof will be bearing on and then to select the roof plane of the primary roof that the secondary roof should intersect.  Essentially three points/picks will specify the secondary roof.



When a secondary is created it will store the primary roof name it is intersecting with as well as the roof plane.  Either of these can then be modified in the secondary roof menu in the case that the user wants to switch to a different primary roof or a different roof plane of a given primary roof.

When a secondary roof is edited or regenerated it will then re-analyze the entire geometry with the specified primary roof and roof plane in order to generate the secondary roof geometry.  This will allow the user maximum flexibility (ie. moving primary and secondary relative to each other {x, y, or in z} as well as changing the primary).

Orthogonal intersections are nice but we can't count on them so from the get go the secondary tool will be designed with any arbitrary intersection angle in mind as well as intersections with a roof planes or gable ends of a gable roof (wall). 

Additionally, the secondary roof may be symmetric or asymmetric so it makes sense to also allow for this possibility as well.

One could even go so far as to allow for intersection with more exotic primary roofs (eg. gambrel, arched, polynesian etc...) however at this point I think I will limit myself to just a single pitched roof plane or wall plane.

There will be a separate tool for secondary hips and one for secondary gables, the reason being the vast number of different parameters required for each type of roof and the different algorithms required as far as calculating the actual roof rafter geometry.

At this point I am mostly conceptualizing and trying to see if there are any major holes or flaws in this system or method of secondary roofs.  I would be interested to hear your feedback on the matter and especially if you can see any major problems with my methodology, or have suggestions for something that may work even better.

As can be seen on my previous notes page (May 14), there are a few special cases that will also need to be dealt with:

1.) Secondary roof is non-orthogonal to the primary roof and its ridge coincides or meets a primary hip.  In this case the secondary really should intersect the two planes on each side of the primary's hip.

2.) A hip roof secondary meets a gable wall such that the aspect ratio of the secondary precludes it from having a ridge board perpendicular to the gable wall.  There is also potentially the non-orthogonal possibility but this would not be very common.

3.) Typical L-shaped hip roof where the valley and hip theoretically merge into a common roof.

If I can somehow pull this one off, it will be a bit of a game changer for the Truss plugin since it will then allow for much more complicated rafter roofs.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #858 on: May 16, 2019, 11:22:03 AM »
Before I fully dive into the secondary roof module I thought it might be interesting to return to the soffit and fascia discussion I was having back in 2017.  It would be nice to have soffit and fascia added to the hip rafter roof modules.

However as I am reviewing my notes and previous posts I came upon one unresolved question.

Should the roof sheathing extend out over the fascia board or should it terminate at the sub-fascia as shown in this detail:



The reason this becomes an issue is that the calculations of an asymmetric hip roof factor in the width of the sub-fascia in order to line them up around the roof.  If the sheathing extends pasts the sub-fascia to the fascia then the gutter line will drop a different amount for each roof plane depending on the pitch.  However if the sheathing only extends to the extent of the sub-fascia then the calculations for the roof do not need to take into account fascia width.

I can have it work either way but I would like to focus on the most common configuration.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #859 on: May 16, 2019, 06:49:18 PM »
Version 2.3.8 - 05.16.2019
- Fixed a bug with the pitch and area callouts for asymmetric gable rafter roofs.
- Fixed a bug with the back/rear outlooker length for gable rafter roofs which now allows for a building or roof length that is a non-integer multiple of the rafter spacing.
- Added the option in the gable rafter roof edit menu to specify a separate front and back overhang length.



The issue with the rear outlooker length will also need to be addressed for truss assemblies.

I should also make the option for the separate front and back overhang length available for trusses as well.  Lots of little things as well as big things to do.

The consensus seems to be that the sheathing should terminate at the sub-fascia and not extend over the fascia, especially if the rafter tail is a plumb cut (fascia is vertical).  However, this preference also seems to be highly dependent on the particular application and type of fascia used.

Here is another interesting detail:

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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #860 on: May 17, 2019, 09:16:17 AM »
A few other things to note with regards to fascia and soffit:

1.)  In order to enable soffit and fascia the advanced options must be turned on and the sub-fascia option must also be turned on.

2.)  The consensus appears to put the fascia top flush with the sub-fascia top with the sheathing terminating at the outside edge of the sub-fascia. 

3.)  Gutter placement will then be unaffected by the fascia other than be offset by its thickness.

4.)  The soffit will be placed level to the horizontal and extend to the outside edge of the sub-fascia meeting the fascia and to the wall sheathing.  Since the plugin is not keeping track of what walls are being used (Medeek, Framer, or a simple solid), there will be a wall sheathing offset parameter that will allow the user to control this offset.  I've noticed some details showing the soffit extending to the framing, others to the sheathing and still others to a brick or stucco layer. 

5.)  The soffit top surface will abut the underside of the sub-fascia.

6.)  Materials for soffit and fascia will both be user driven/customizable.

7.) Parameters to include:  Soffit thickness, Fascia thickness, Fascia depth.

8.)  I will also be adding in an additional parameter for the roof cladding which allows the user to extend it beyond the sheathing a specified amount (Roof Cladding Extension).  This will naturally extend the ridge or hip caps the appropriate amounts as well.

I realize there are other soffit variations but I will be starting with the flat soffit first and then consider the angled soffit in future developments.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #861 on: May 17, 2019, 05:49:55 PM »
Version 2.3.9 - 05.17.2019
- Enabled a roof cladding extension parameter for all hip rafter roofs.



The extension is measured inline with the roof plane (not with the horizontal).
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #862 on: May 18, 2019, 10:04:10 PM »
First look at the soffit and fascia (hip roof):



Also note the roof cladding extension (3/4") with a 6:12 pitch.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #863 on: May 19, 2019, 11:26:20 AM »
Version 2.4.0 - 05.19.2019
- Enabled soffit and fascia for all hip rafter roofs.
- Fixed a minor bug with the ridge cap extension for asymmetric hip roofs.
- Enabled custom materials for roof sheathing and roof cladding in the HTML edit menu for all hip rafter roofs.





Custom materials is also enabled for both the soffit and the fascia.  Soffit and fascia can only be specified in the edit menu once the roof is created.  The current draw menu presents the user with far less parameters and will be updated to a more advanced HTML menu in the future.

Once I am satisfied with the soffit and fascia with the hip roofs I can then extend it to gable, shed and dutch gable roofs and all other truss roofs.

View example model here:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/14e0d0b0-80b5-4d3a-bf65-19b0e68eda76/Soffit-and-Fascia-Test1
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #864 on: May 22, 2019, 03:33:59 PM »
After some further testing of the roof cladding extension parameter I think it makes more sense to make the extension per the horizontal and not per the roof plane.  The problems really only seem to arise when you have an asymmetric roof, in this case the higher pitched roof will project less than the lower pitched roof if the extension is parallel to the roof plane.

Thoughts?
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #865 on: May 22, 2019, 06:38:56 PM »
The two most common drip edges I’ve seen applied to residential roofs are the right two profiles shown in this image:



It would be more light weight to represent these metals as simple edges and faces but then they would Z fight with whatever they are resting on so I guess it is probably better to assign a thickness and model them as a solid instead.

So the two options to start will be a L or a D drip edge (not sure why they call it a D). The dimensions will all be customizable like the roof gutters.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #866 on: May 23, 2019, 08:25:43 AM »
I've decided to put the drip edge on hold for just a bit and focus on the secondary roof module.

There is really two ways to handle this.  You can either start with a primary roof and then add secondary roofs that tie into it.  Or you can allow the user to pick the building outline (any polygon) and utilize a straight skeleton algorithm to compute the roof planes.  There are some pros and cons (limitations) to each method.

Obviously with the straight skeleton method one would assume that the fascia lines up all the way around the roof so it doesn't lend itself to secondary roofs like dormers that may be positioned up on the roof.

However, the straight skeleton allows for some really complicated scenarios that you just cannot achieve with a secondary roof methodology.

A few months ago I was trying to come up with a robust straight skeleton algorithm and somehow it defeated me.  This morning I took a slightly different approach and I now think I've finally solved it:

Step 1:




Step 2:




Step 3:




Step 4:



Once I have the roof "solid" I can then easily pull out the edges that represent the hips, ridges, valleys and flying hips.  From there it is just a matter of some tedious logic to detect whether to frame a common, hip jack, valley jack or cripple jack (hip/valley jack).

Of course the devil is in the details but I now think I have a path forward for complex roofs, this is major breakthrough.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #867 on: May 24, 2019, 01:45:08 PM »
The complex roof algorithm seems to be fairly robust thus far, I haven't been able to break it just yet. However as I am contemplating how to make it so that each roof plane is adjustable (variable pitch) it is quickly becoming apparent that such a feature would become very complicated.

The issue really is a situation where you have a particular roof plane that you want to adjust.  You then change its pitch (assuming all other pitches are left the same) and the roof gets recalculated.  In certain situations that roof plane may then merge with another roof plane.  If that happens then one of the two roof planes is absorbed by the other (both pitches must be equal of course).

The difficulty seems to arise in the tracking of each roof plane and the custom pitch assigned to it.  The number of roof planes can be variable.  The ability to edit each roof plane will need to an "on the fly" sort of tool which allows the user to adjust only one roof plane at a time and then recalc the entire roof to re-determine the shape of the roof and hence how many and where its new roof planes actually are.

The easiest way to store this information, in my option. is to maintain the roof solid group (on a separate hidden layer).  From this solid the roof planes can quickly be ascertained as well as the outline or footprint of the roof.  I'm still thinking this one through as you can probably tell. 

Initially the roof will be drawn with one overhang and one pitch.  Where the edit menu can take it from there is where it potentially becomes quite complicated.

Consider a complex roof like the one below:



I can see that the framing can be accomplished with some basic rules/logic however non-orthogonal roof outlines will probably require some additional logic.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #868 on: May 25, 2019, 09:31:35 PM »
Version 2.4.1 - 05.25.2019
- Parameter hightlight (input) color added to General tab of global settings.
- Parameter change highlighting enabled for the gable and hip rafter roof edit menus.
- Added the indexing parameter for roofs and floors to the General tab of the global settings.



A few minor items addressed per recent customer requests.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #869 on: May 26, 2019, 10:01:32 AM »
Since the hip rafter roof now has soffit and fascia I thought it would be fitting to add the same treatment to the gable roof, however the gable roof is surprisingly more complicated when it comes to soffit and fascia.  Take the example shown below:



A number of questions arise:

1.)  The sheathing terminates at the sub-fascia (at the eave, per previous discussion) however should it extend out to the gable fascia? or just terminate at the gable sub-fascia as shown?

2.)  The cladding may need a different treatment even for hip roofs and for gable roofs.  Rather than relying on the cladding extension parameter to bring it out over the fascia maybe bring the cladding out to the fascia by default and then the extension parameter brings it beyond the fascia if desired?  The cladding extension parameter should also really be per the horizontal rather than per the roof plane due to complications with asymmetric roofs.

3.)  A number of possible configurations can exist at the corner where the eave and gable soffit meet.  Ideas?  I don't even know what these variants are called, but I've seen them all.  Some architects really don't like the soffit boxes but even these are popular in many regions.

http://diydiva.net/2010/11/building-soffit-boxes-and-wood-soffit-installation/

4.)  Should the gable fascia terminate as shown or extend beyond the eave fascia (projection).  The projected gable fascia seems to be very popular in western Washington.

5.)  The gutters will naturally be offset if fascia is specified but should I extend the gutters to terminate flush to the gable fascia or leave them so they terminate flush to the gable sub-fascia?

These roofs are complicated business.  Lots of little details.  Even though I'm not an architect or designer I've still got to deal with them all since I'm creating a tool that involves all of these subtle design decisions.  Structural elements tend to be a bit simpler in my opinion.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #870 on: May 26, 2019, 10:02:59 AM »
I really have no idea if this is the correct way to build a soffit box but here is one possibility:



A couple things jump out at me:

1.) Note the double miter cut of the gable fascia.

2.) Note the addition of the two pieces of fascia to create the soffit box.

3.) I've shown this soffit box with a 15" return (the minimum return) however one could extend the return further and the eave soffit would then morph into an L shaped configuration.  So if this type of soffit configuration is specified I should also provide the user with the ability to set the return length.

With gable roofs and their soffit and fascias it looks like I've open yet another can of worms.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #871 on: May 26, 2019, 10:42:39 AM »
Here is a soffit box with an extended return (4"):



Note the L-shaped eave soffit.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #872 on: May 27, 2019, 09:05:51 PM »
Version 2.4.2 - 05.27.2019
- Enabled soffit and fascia for gable rafter roofs.
- Enabled a roof cladding extension parameter for gable rafter roofs.
- Enabled custom materials for roof sheathing and roof cladding in the HTML edit menu for gable rafter roofs.
- Added the soffit box extension parameter for gable rafter roofs.



View model here:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/37d083b2-1a35-4094-90c0-34d3524ac4f2/Soffit-and-Fascia-Gable-Rafter-Roof

Note the trimming of the ridgeboard if required.

Currently there is only one way to soffit and fascia the gable roof but if there is enough call for it I can also look at this type of configuration:

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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #873 on: May 28, 2019, 10:06:20 AM »
The other configuration I've noticed being used quite a bit locally is the angled soffit:



Personally I think this type of soffit works better where the rafter tails are square cut and not plumb cut otherwise the sub-fascia will probably need to be adjusted (beveled) on its bottom to ensure that the soffit fits correctly.

The one thing to note with this arrangement is that the gable soffit and eave soffit should be coplanar.  In order for that to happen the depth of the rafter tails must equal the depth of the rake board (barge rafter).  One way to achieve this if the rafters are quite deep is to trim them as shown in the image.  An alternative approach is to match the barge rafter with the actual rafters but this will result in a very deep/thick fascia and a heavy look.

I'm just thinking out loud here so correct me if I'm seriously mistaken with any of my musings.  The angled soffit is certainly another option that I could add in but I need to make sure there is call for it and that I've got it right.
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Re: Truss Calculators
« Reply #874 on: May 28, 2019, 12:16:30 PM »
Now that I have at least one option for soffit and fascia for a gable type roof it makes sense that I extend this functionality to the truss module.  However with common trusses I also have the option for various roof returns:



I will need to add some additional logic into the soffit and fascia module so that it can properly handle these more classical roof returns. 

If you look at this a little bit further it becomes apparent that you have the gable soffit dropping down into the roof plane of the return.  I'm not entirely sure how this would be framed out, but it sure would be helpful to watch a crew installing soffit on a gable overhang where it comes down and meets a hip roof return like the one shown.

The fascia and eave soffit with its extension seem pretty straight forward.

---

A quick mock up of a truss roof with hip returns and soffit and fascia:









View model here:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/421108b3-d0dc-4898-a096-0cf7d1999eb2/Hip-Roof-Return-with-Soffit-and-Fascia

I could get all fancy and try to trim the gable soffits so they intersect the hip returns perfectly but looking at it now it doesn't seem to terrible if I just terminate them as I have shown and the carpenter in the field will adjust to suit.
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson, P.E.
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