Author Topic: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"  (Read 24574 times)

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Whit Spurzon(Guest)

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2006, 06:21:59 AM »
I built a house in 1990 and used Tyvek House wrap.   Eight years later during a repair we noticed moisture signs at the lower portion of a wooden chase.  Water had penetrated through some flashing above and worked its way inside the chase.  We pealed off the siding to find the sheathing saturated.  There were actually pockets of water held in by the Tyvek and rotted the sheathing.

This year we began remodeling this house that required removal of some of the same siding to tie in a roof over a covered deck to solve the issues** that caused and continued to cause the water damage in the first place.  I expected to see more water damage.  Dry as a bone.  Some staining on the siding but everything else looked as good as the day we put it on.   The difference was we used 15# tar paper on the repair 7 years ago.  The moisture had penetrated again, but was not held against the building.

**Leaves, needles and cones from nearby trees would dam the valley near the chase and water would work its way beyond the flashing.


Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2006, 06:26:04 AM »
Thanks so much for relating your experience, Whit.  I have read quite a few cases where the Tyvek was OK until liquid water gets to the inside then it won't go out- only th vapor will.  Condensation inside the Tyvek also can cause liquid water.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 06:27:22 AM by glenn-k »
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2006, 07:20:21 AM »
Testing simulating nailing - and other info - interesting results and information.

Scientific Testing of Housewraps and Felt
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Offline DemianJ

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Felt + Foam
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2006, 07:56:32 AM »
My parents used felt in conjunction with 1" external foam (on 2x4 walls) for the house they built 20 yrs ago.   The place is extremely easy to heat/cool and there haven't been any moisture problems.

I was about to buy some Tyvek (b/c I just assumed that's what you do nowadays), but now, thanks to Glenn's posts, I'm rethinking the felt with 1" foam.  It seems to me this strikes a good balance b/w felt alone and tyvek alone (especially with the drainage plane mentioned earlier).  Also, the idea of super airtight house makes me a little nervous as far as indoor air quality is concerned.

Demian

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2006, 08:09:31 AM »
I think the felt with the foam and screenwall may be a good move as in my research I found a whole housing project with foam that had problems similar to housewraps.  A lot of it may have to do with thinking housewrap is a cure all and not paying attention to flashing properly- etc. but as one article mentioned felt is dynamic - as it gets wetter it removes more water through wicking -then when it dries it goes back to being more impermiable.

I want to stress that in all cases where the author of the article is familiar with the screen wall drainage plane he recommends it - I think the screen wall is the number one improvment you could make no matter which housewrap or felt you use.  If the water gets to the backside of the siding and can drain uninterupted back to the outside, it won't go in- let it hit your housewrap - it transfers to it then through any opening to the inside of the house.  Like PEG says, "Think like water."

He also says "Depends"- but I didn't feel that was appropriate right now.
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Offline pioneergal

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2006, 01:22:26 PM »
Quote


Another thing --here I go again --- if per the manufacturer you didn't do this right -or you didn't do that right or you didn't do the other thing right every time one of these houses fails, then it seems you must need a masters degree in Tyvekology to get it right.  I don't think any of us have that and even if we did and the house failed something else we missed would have went wrong and they would offer to replace the product-
If it is so critical that even professionals fail, then why are we trying to use it - where is the leeway??  How about an old proven product with a little forgiveness. :) Many of us have thousands in hard earned cash in these things -

What was that saying --fool me once -uh --uh ----ya can't get fooled again. :)


 

Lately, DH and I have thought about this a lot .....Tyvek?....Tarpaper (felt)?

After many discussions with builders in our area and reading articles about the 2 products we have decided to go with 30 # felt.

We have been watching the construction of new homes in our area and to our surprise about half or more do not use anything as a wrap :-/ ...........the others use Tyvek...........not seen any tarpaper.

The other day I watched as masons were applying stone over the entire exterior of a new home and they were not using any wrap.

So, DH asked a couple of builders the why and why nots of wraping.

He got a different answer  from each builder.

Sometimes it 's wise to go with a "gut feeling" of what is right for your own situation so we're going with felt.

We will probably be the talk of the community when we start wrapping .

I can see the looks and hear the questions now  :-?






Offline DemianJ

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2006, 04:13:52 PM »
The current issue of Fine Homebuilding (Feb/March) has a detailed article on housewraps.  I haven't picked it up yet, but plan on doing so.

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/fh_177_066.asp

Demian

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2006, 06:24:45 PM »
The scientist they are talking about to get you to buy their magazine is the same one who wrote the 2 articles I posted previously.

http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/leaky_housewraps.html
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Offline Daddymem

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2006, 02:19:42 AM »
That "Scientist" (Paul Fissette) was my professor for Building Materials and Wood Technology class at UMass.  He is the real deal...a very knowledgeable guy.  
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2006, 03:34:51 AM »
Wow - small world. :)

What I noticed about his work is that everything he did made sense after he explained his results.
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Offline Jimmy C.

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2006, 07:32:42 AM »
Does anyone have a link that shows the proper way to apply tar paper. I am interested in how it is cut out for the windows and doors.
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Offline Okie_Bob

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2006, 09:41:13 AM »
Jimmy, I used tar paper and it's very simple to apply.
Just start on the bottom at one corner and run the first row all the way to the end of that side. Overlap the nex row by about 6" and continue up to the top of that wall. Then go back and use a knife and cut out the window and door openings. You use a galvanized 'roofing' nail that come with a plastic 'washer' for lack of a better term. You can start anywhere really and if you want, run the first row all the way around the house and overlap where you started. Simple, can't get any easier. I like it, I prefer it and plan to use it on my next building profect as well. I don't have anything against Tyveck, just prefer tarpaper and use 30# vs 15# is it is much stronger. Hope that helps.
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Offline DemianJ

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Use both tar paper and Tyvek?
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2006, 12:03:45 PM »
Other than the extra labor and cost required (both minimal due to the small size of my house), what are the disadvantages of using both, i.e., tar paper underneath Tyvek?  Wouldn't the tar paper serve as an extra layer of protection if the Tyvek broke down as well as wickng water away from the wood to the tar paper exterior where it would be slowly transferred through the Tyvek as a vapor?  If so, it would seem the extra few hours and few hundred dollars would be worth the extra protection from rot.  Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Demian

Offline Shelley

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2006, 04:53:11 PM »
Demian,  

I quit reading the articles except in a cursory way when I decided that it wasn't for me.....but I think that what you just said is exactly the problem with the stuff....and someone will correct me if I'm wrong.  Think the problems that they've had is that Tyvek is actually a wind barrier, an air leak barrier.  Water gets behind it and can't transfer.  Vapor barrier on the inside, tyvek doesn't breath and the moisture just stays there rusting nails and rotting wood.

And, there are probably house wraps that will allow moisture to transfer.  Just not Tyvek House Wrap.  The air leak thing can be taken care of in other ways...even if you're using batt insulation.  In certain circles, I'm know as the Queen of Caulk. ;D  Production builders can't afford the time to button up a house, so they use Tyvek.  Like I said earlier, some of this new fangled stuff is not necessarily better, it's just faster.
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2006, 07:00:43 PM »
I have to agree with Shelley -

Unfortunately I'm out selling my body for money again, so am on dial up----it's driving me crazy.
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Offline DemianJ

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2006, 02:58:21 PM »
I picked up the issue of FH and other than quoting Paul Fissette and his preference for felt, the gist of the article author's opinion was:

1) Don't use perforated housewraps (some of the really cheap housewraps just have small holes punched in them rather than the Gore-tex like pores in Tyvek).

2)  Tyvek is one of the best choices, but felt is also very good.  He prefers Tyvek due to speed of installation (roll sizes, etc).

3)  Whatever you use, make sure you get detailed directions and install it properly (poorly installed housewarp is worse than no housewrap at all).

4)  There's also a description of some interesting sheeting products that form a rainscreen.

Overall, I'd take the article as an endorsement of felt as being on par with Tyvek if installation efficiency isn't your top concern (although I'm not sure how felt installation would take longer than Tyvek).

Demian

Offline PEG688

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2006, 06:32:47 PM »
Quote
.

(although I'm not sure how felt installation would take longer than Tyvek).

Demian

  Tarpaper is 3' wide , Typar / Tyvek /other wraps are 9'  wide,,,, [highlight]generally[/highlight] ,,,,,, 3'    wide rolls  are readly avaible  as well . But the reference to speed is addressing the width factor , IMO.

  For what it's worth, it would , DEPEND, on the use , either will work ( tarpaper or a building wrap), the wraps will weather better IF your going to be slow in covering the walls , Tyvek or Typar, I perfer Typar for 2 main reasons .

  #1 It is tougher , better with UV degrading , less likely to rip. I have used both products for many years . This is my "field testing " that I'm addressing.

  #2 It is easier on your eyes , Gray color . Tyvek is snow white , applying it on a sunny day and you'll also perfer Typar.


  [highlight]On my own house I'd use tarpaper,[/highlight] and I'd cover it quickly.  If I couldn't cover it quickly I'd use Typar [highlight]but in cridical areas, high exposure ,I'd use 30 # felt.[/highlight]   PEG.  
When in doubt , build it stout with something you know about .

Whit Spurzon(Guest)

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2006, 06:18:19 AM »
"Back in the day" prior to nailing inspections we used to put Tyvek on the wall before we tipped it up.  Now that was fast and could be put on perfectly flat and clean looking job.

These days with nailing/strap/sheer inspections required the sider usually installs the housewrap/felt and most (that I work with anyway) would rather NOT work with a 9' roll working off of planks, ladders and around the windows and doors installed by the framers.

DemianJ

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2006, 05:43:00 AM »
I ended up using 10' rolls of Tyvek with button cap nails.  Due to the height of my house (about 40' to the roof peak on the walkout side) and the slope of the land around it, I see what people meant by the importance of ease of installation.  Twice around the house with relatively light rolls requiring more than enough sketchy ladder work.  Eight time around using 3', but still heavy, rolls of felt would have been incredibly difficult.  Based on my experience, I'd recommend large rolls of housewrap for using on a difficult site.  However, I can see how felt might be the better option on flat site with a 1 story or 1.5 story house.

Demian

glenn-k

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2006, 06:02:16 AM »
Are you using a screen wall  of some sort with the house wrap - ie: spacers between the siding and the housewrap, Demian?  It would improve your chances of water drainage behind the siding without setting up problem areas.  If I recall, John said 3/8" was enough.  Many do without with no problem--some have problems.

DemianJ

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2006, 06:43:01 AM »
Glenn, thanks to the good advice here, I am using 1x3 furring (more like 5/8" by 2") strips in the Wall 1 configuration shown in the article below.

http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/walls/Guide_to_Insulation_Sheathing.pdf


glenn-k

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2006, 07:11:49 AM »
Good plan.  That makes me feel better.  I have noticed how it works as part of my shop tool room has a clear plastic vapor barrier behind clapboard siding.  What ever water gets behind even my low quality clapboards drains right out.  Clapboards are a good kind of siding also as water that is forced behind one board by wind, holes etc, is transferred down the back of that board to the face of the lower board and back outside like shingles or shakes.

 

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