Author Topic: 1.5 story 20x30  (Read 5962 times)

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Offline Jabroni

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1.5 story 20x30
« on: April 09, 2012, 05:21:36 AM »
Hey great site and amazing informant on here I have been reading for weeks now.  Have not done much building at all and know very little and will be learning with the guidance of some one who has built a few cottages before. However I am learning a great deal on the forums and studying the plans as I like to understands how everything is designed and works.

My question is I am planning to start our 20x30 1.5 story this summer we are planning on using a post and pier foundation possibly on 6x6 posts. I want to build my own trusses but am un sure which design to use as there is one in the plans and also ones fo the cathedral ceiling part(in the booklet). Can I use the ones in the plans with no center ridge beam all the way across the loft and the cathedral part of the cottage?  And also when doing the balloon framing and attaching a header on the side walls for the loft floor is the header notched into the 2x4 wall studs or attached to them then the floor joists on top?

Thanks again Shane

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 06:13:17 AM »
 w* to the forum!

For questions like this it is helpful at times to know the general geographic location. We all have the option of choosing to dosplay a line or two in out visible profile info in what is known as the "personal info" area.  Here's a LINK to a topic on that.

A few other things that are helpful is to know whether or not you have explored what your local building permit, zoning, septic and well (if any) regulations are as well as the availability of electrical power? All those things can impact what you do and how you do it. Example: pier foundations are not permitted in many areas; self built roof frames that do not follow the prescriptions laid down in the building codes are not permitted many places either, unless stamped by an engineer.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline Jabroni

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 06:51:43 AM »
Sorry forgot to add that info and will to my profile for future questions.

Building in pei Canada approx 200 feet from the ocean.  Septic is done already and power is being hooked up temporarily this week. There is no building code that I have to follow s to speak as I am free to pretty much do what and how I want to for this project. Again I apologize for my ignorance on most of these topics and am looking fowarded to learning alot of new stuff. Thanks again fo any and all help

Shane

Offline hhbartlett

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 07:28:09 AM »
Hey, I'm planning on building in New Brunswick myself! Just a question, are you sure there's no code or permits required? Might want to check that out before going ahead. http://www.gov.pe.ca/environment/index.php3?number=14935&lang=E


Offline RIjake

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 07:32:43 AM »
Shane,
I'm not too sure about the trusses, but the ledger (you called it a header) is usually notched into the studs then the loft floor joists are set on top.  Have you thought about going with 2x6 walls rather than 2x4?  For the little additional cost it's worth it for the extra R value you can get.

Here's a couple pics from my build where you can see the doubled up 2x12s with a plywood stiffener between setting on top of the ledger and nailed into the adjacent stud.






Offline Jabroni

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 07:47:50 AM »
rijake

Great pics and I see what you mean. It looks as though they are spaced every second stud. Are you or do you have a floor in the loft are or not?  I want the second floor for a second bedroom so. Assumed they were to be attached every stud or 16?  It is only gong to be a summer cottage so too worried about the r value but would like to have some of course.  Thanks for your pictures I have been trying to visualize how that would look and I can see it now. Does the plywood add some addition strength as you said and it looks like they are in between the joist and the stud if imam seeing that correctly

Thanks

Offline Jabroni

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 07:49:40 AM »
Hey, I'm planning on building in New Brunswick myself! Just a question, are you sure there's no code or permits required? Might want to check that out before going ahead. http://www.gov.pe.ca/environment/index.php3?number=14935&lang=E

Yes I gave checked with the planning department and asked if I need to have these plans approved by an engineer or what building codes are required and he said none in that jurisdiction and it maybe due to it only being a summer cottage not year round

Shane

Offline Jabroni

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 07:52:35 AM »
Yes I gave checked with the planning department and asked if I need to have these plans approved by an engineer or what building codes are required and he said none in that jurisdiction and it maybe due to it only being a summer cottage not year round

Shane
. I just happen to be in a region where no bylaws or Official plans are required .....as of yet I am lucky there

Offline hhbartlett

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 07:54:42 AM »
Yes I gave checked with the planning department and asked if I need to have these plans approved by an engineer or what building codes are required and he said none in that jurisdiction and it maybe due to it only being a summer cottage not year round

Shane

Huh, weird. Makes things easier though. Where I'm building they're not too strict either, but I do have to let them know they type of construction and size (no drawn plans though), and it does have to be inspected. I think.  ??? I'm not as far as you...

Offline Jabroni

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 08:17:13 AM »
Huh, weird. Makes things easier though. Where I'm building they're not too strict either, but I do have to let them know they type of construction and size (no drawn plans though), and it does have to be inspected. I think.  ??? I'm not as far as you...

Great sounds like we are on the same page for the most part I am not sure if I need an inspection as far as I know I don't think, but I will find out soon. What are you planning to build?  What type of foundation are you going with?  Can u or are u using site built trusses? Or are u required to get engineered ones? 

Offline hhbartlett

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 08:34:11 AM »
Great sounds like we are on the same page for the most part I am not sure if I need an inspection as far as I know I don't think, but I will find out soon. What are you planning to build?  What type of foundation are you going with?  Can u or are u using site built trusses? Or are u required to get engineered ones?

My plans have changed, now I may be going with the same as you - the 1.5 storey with loft. Originally it was all one level but a way way bigger footprint, which is probably easier to build in reality, but more expensive. The plan was concrete slab, 2 x 6 walls, pre-built trusses and roof. Pre-built trusses are pretty cheap and save alot of headaches if your design allows for them. I got a price of just under $3000 delivered and tax included for enough to cover a 32' x 68' building, that included a raised heel and 16" overhangs, plus gable ends.

I'm still going with the same type of foundation, a shallow frost protected slab-on-grade. It's the easiest to do, as far as I can tell, because once it's done there's no floor joists or stuff to mess with - we're just going to use the concrete as the finished floor (either stain it & coat it, or use epoxy coating). I'm going to run some pex tubing in it and hook it up to the water heater and a pump for in floor heating when needed, plus wood stove. Here's my blog post about the foundation: http://www.oneoldbarn.com/2012/03/foundations-and-dragons-next-door/ . It depends on your site though, I happen to already have a level place for the foundation; there used to be a house there that burnt, so when it was cleared they filled in the basement and graveled it over flat.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 10:04:05 AM »
First let me say there are no states where there are no building codes. They are only local jurisdictions that do not enforce many, most or all the the regulations that are set at the state level. When local official decide they don't want to be the code enforcer, then the state rules prevail. Enforcement then gets very spotty, sporadic. Many times all it takes is a complaint from someone that will set the wheels into motion. When a complaint is lodged there are procedures that must be followed. If there is no complaint nothing much happens. I would imagine that very much the same thing happens in Canada.

Not all regulations that one finds in the codes are stupid like some folks believe. When it comes to basic things like foundations walls and roofs for anything but the very smallest of projects, the codes have a lot of great information. The codes basically state, that if you use these materials, (size, grade, species....) and if you assemble and connect the pieces in this manner, the structure should meet minimal standards that have been established. These standards take into account wind, snow, temperature ranges, seismic and other natural phenomenon. A builder can always do better than code and end up with a more solid home. Codes are not going to guarantee that the structure will not fall down for some reason, because they have no control over the workmanship. In areas with very busy inspectors sometimes certain things are missed, rushed over. We're all human.

Tract housing builders try to stay as close to the minimums as possible; saving materials and a carpenters time is money in the bank to them. A good custom builder just does not add doo-dads and more space, more expensive counter tops and floors, etc. to make their custom homes cost more. They will also use a size bigger something than code for that section; maybe 5/8" roof sheathing in place of 7/16 or 1" T&G subfloor in place of the code approved 3/4" subfloor, blown cellulose insulation instead of cheap to install batts, and so on. When you are building your own you are in full control of materials selection. What's it going to be; a tract house or a custom home.

Perhaps the mention of 2x4 for walls was a slip and 2x6's were meant? In any event, in the USA, every project is also subject to energy standards. Canada must have the same. Check that out too. 2x4's can be used for walls under the IRC structural rules in the USA. They do fall short on being able to provide sufficient insulation. There are other ways to increase insulation, such as XPS foam on the exterior of walls. But 2x6 are easy and cheap enough.

But the big issue of a 2x4 wall in something the size of the 30x30 is if the ledgers are inset into the studs and if the studs extend above the loft floor, those skinny notched studs are going to be stressed and may fail. Even 2x6 studs with notched in ledgers are weakened and unless a structural ridge BEAM is used (not a ridge board) this practice is not approved. A 20 ft wide can generate strong outward horizontal forces on those upper ends of the wall studs; snow, rain and wind need to be planned for.

Foundation. What sort of soils do you have. Piers, as used by virtually everyone we've seen use them do not gain much stability from the soil. If the soil gets wet much of its ability to withstand a lateral force disappears in the muck. Piers tend to act as isolated members. Many builders end up with totally inadequately braced piers. Many? Most! 

If one reason for piers is being able to avoid a lot of concrete, possibly a Permanent Wood Foundation, all foundation grade wood, should be looked at. This is basically building a PT wood perimeter wall using special techniques and materials. It, similar to a concrete block foundation is tied together and acts as a unit.

In a building there is a lot of "if this part fails" it can lead to a failure in this part or that part.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 10:10:41 AM »
Just saying that before you jump into a set plan be certain of what you are facing.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline Jabroni

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 10:25:18 AM »
Great info mountaindon

We are not 100% set on what foundation type we are using that was just what the fella who Is helping me out suggested as he has done about 10 cottages in that style and had good success.  We are goin got check out the soil to make sure this will work for this structure as well.  Yes I meant 2x6 as that will add strength and also as you said for the ledger also.  I can get my lumber at a good price as my neighbor and great friend works for a lumber mill so spending a it more for much better wood will not be an issue.  I am not trying to not build to code as I unrest and it's the for a reason just happen do be in a place where it is not enforced or required.

Again I am very new to building anything as I was never shown or taught so this will be a great teaching project for me and am looking forward to getting it started. This will be a summer cottage for my family and do not want to take any shortcuts to jeopardize anyone's safety and protect my investment.

Insulation is not a huge concern as this will be a Summer cottage but some Is needed obviously to keep that heat on cool nights and early and late into the summer.

Snow loads can be larger in my area and wind somewhat as Well as we are on the ocean, however with a 12/12 pitch it seems as though not too much snow would stay on the roof. So my question is really can I use the loft truss design across the entire roof and have rafter tiedsevery 48"in the open area or even every 24" if deemed more safe and or required as it is in some areas???

Thanks again for your input

Offline hhbartlett

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 10:39:37 AM »
Great info mountaindon

We are not 100% set on what foundation type we are using that was just what the fella who Is helping me out suggested as he has done about 10 cottages in that style and had good success.  We are goin got check out the soil to make sure this will work for this structure as well.  Yes I meant 2x6 as that will add strength and also as you said for the ledger also.  I can get my lumber at a good price as my neighbor and great friend works for a lumber mill so spending a it more for much better wood will not be an issue.  I am not trying to not build to code as I unrest and it's the for a reason just happen do be in a place where it is not enforced or required.

Again I am very new to building anything as I was never shown or taught so this will be a great teaching project for me and am looking forward to getting it started. This will be a summer cottage for my family and do not want to take any shortcuts to jeopardize anyone's safety and protect my investment.

Insulation is not a huge concern as this will be a Summer cottage but some Is needed obviously to keep that heat on cool nights and early and late into the summer.

Snow loads can be larger in my area and wind somewhat as Well as we are on the ocean, however with a 12/12 pitch it seems as though not too much snow would stay on the roof. So my question is really can I use the loft truss design across the entire roof and have rafter tiedsevery 48"in the open area or even every 24" if deemed more safe and or required as it is in some areas???

Thanks again for your input

Don't know if this helps, but our last house had a 12/12 pitch, and I was looking at the Bay of Fundy from the front yard. I put a metal roof on it, and there was never any snow that stayed put. However, it was common to hear a big crash when the sun came out after a snow storm, that was the sound of the snow and ice sliding off the roof. You wouldn't want to be standing under it. Keep that in mind when putting in doors & entrances. I know it's a summer cottage, but pretend you'll be in it during winter anyway (and who knows, you might). Fibreglass for 2 x 6 is cheap and much easier to install when building the first time.

Oh, and that house we had; it was built maybe 80+ years ago, and not well built then either. The 2 x 4 rough lumber rafters and ceiling joists were 24" apart. The 2 x 8 floor joists were 32" on center. The old house shook in the wind off the bay, but never collapsed or anything like that.

Offline Jabroni

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 11:02:38 AM »
Thanks makes me feel a bit better lol. I saw another project was a. 20 x 34 and had what we are doing and the rafter ties every 4' looks like and I really like the look of it over the great room. However they have a beam across the top of entire ceiling which I assume is a ridge beam. So I don't know if I do the cottage just as the plan show but use the loft trusses all the way across using the collar ties and then also the rafter ties every 4 foot if the will be strong enough as every second truss would not have a rafter tie just the collar tie. If I need to I can put the rafter ties evey 24 and still be fairly open I just like the more open look???

Offline Jabroni

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 11:04:42 AM »
Thanks makes me feel a bit better lol. I saw another project was a. 20 x 34 and had what we are doing and the rafter ties every 4' looks like and I really like the look of it over the great room. However they have a beam across the top of entire ceiling which I assume is a ridge beam. So I don't know if I do the cottage just as the plan show but use the loft trusses all the way across using the collar ties and then also the rafter ties every 4 foot if the will be strong enough as every second truss would not have a rafter tie just the collar tie. If I need to I can put the rafter ties evey 24 and still be fairly open I just like the more open look???

We originally wanted a steel roof but was told it is very loud and was not recommended figure it would be lighter as well. we would have some insulation on the roof but not a ton so not sure how much of the sound would be dampened

Offline MountainDon

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 12:57:28 PM »
Quick thoughts; more later.

A 12/12 pitch roof will shed snow more readily than a 4/12 for example. But if it's a mix of rain-sleet-snow then everything sticks quite well. So it can still be a factor.

A 12/12 is almost like another wall to the wind though. Wind blowing on a 12/12 face will create more downward force on the leeward side and lighten the windward side. Those forces are going to be transmitted in part across the gable ends.

Insulation: I have no idea what your summers are like but I'm from MB and each summer brings a few weeks of very hot weather. I'd think about what buildings I've been in in summer and reflect on the amount of insulation in the attic/roof and to the interior comfort level. I know that when we retrofitted our home in Wpg with R40 attic insulation back in the 70's it was cooler in summer and warmer in winter. If you are going for a cathedral ceiling anywhere retrofitting addition insulation is quite more difficult and expensive. Myself, I'd at least consider 2x12 rafters and use the special R38C insulation batts as the least amount. But that's me. And if you ever do begin using it in the winter....

Metal roofs can be noisy or quiet. Folks who install their metal panels over 7/16"+ roof sheathing panels have quiet roofs in rain, especially when there is insulation in the rafter bays or on the roof sheathing (rigid XPS). Metal roofs installed over horizontal purlins without roof sheathing are noisier. Maybe that's what those people have heard. Metal without sheathing also can easily have condensation problems on the underside causing insulation to get wet. Not to mention that a sheathed roof is stronger against those wind forces, than a metal on purlin roof. We have metal over sheathing on both our home and our cabin. It's raining now and the only reason I know is I can see it out the window.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

Offline RIjake

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Re: 1.5 story 20x30
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 01:25:37 PM »
Shane,
Regarding my pics; I have a full second floor.  The flooring used up there is 2x6 T&G plank.  It is your first floor ceiling as well as your second level floor.  Typically referred to as beam and plank.  It's a very attractive look.  I wanted to go with real beams but they would have had to be huge in order to span the 20'.  So what I'm planning instead is to wrap each built up beam with rough sawn 1x12 to give the appearance of a beam.  The built up beams are on 4' centers.

As far as the 2x6 vs. 2x4.  You really need to reexamine your thoughts about using those 2x4s.  As Don said, when you go to notch in your ledger you'll be left with very little material.

As far as metal roof.  I went with a metal roof and it is very quiet and it's not even insulated yet.  I went with 5/8" OSB then Rooftop Guard underlayment then the metal roofing.  My wife and I were in the cabin during a hail storm and I was surprised how quiet it was.  The snow shedding factor is huge too.  Mine's in Western Maine so snow is an issue.  BTW it's a 12 pitch.

 

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