Martin Shooting in Florida

Started by Windpower, March 22, 2012, 07:47:45 AM

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Windpower

911 calls from Trayvon Martin incident


[embed=425,349]http://youtu.be/R8rws30uASw[/embed]


[embed=425,349]http://youtu.be/-hUgAfuYcg8[/embed]


Often, our ignorance is not as great as our reluctance to act on what we know.

peternap

I wasn't there Windpower, so I can't say exactly what happened. I like the stand your ground laws. Virginia's stand your ground goes all the way back to common law.
I also know it's easy to get wrapped up in a situation that you have no other choice but to shoot someone. It happens fast and is confusing.

Training is a big part of doing it right. When that happens you shouldn't even have to think about it because it's been done and re-done over and over.

Being on the right side of it doesn't mean you win a fight. Being tougher than the other fellow is the key.

That brings me to the BIG picture. Somewhere early in life, we all program ourselves with our moral values. They don't have to follow the mainstream, they're personal. Some people have no qualms about killing someone just because they can.

I hate the idea of taking another human life and that baggage will stay with me for the rest of my days.

In this case, from what I know, there was no reason for that boy to be dead and very little reason for his killer to exist. This was not a stand your ground issue, this was senseless murder in my mind.
These here is God's finest scupturings! And there ain't no laws for the brave ones! And there ain't no asylums for the crazy ones! And there ain't no churches, except for this right here!


MountainDon

My belief is that somewhere about the time the neighborhood watch guy started following Trayvon he forfeited his right to the "stand your ground" defense. He didn't have to get close enough to "feel threatened". He saw a black kid he didn't know and immediately slapped an acting suspiciously label on him and everything went downhill from there.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

archimedes

Quote from: MountainDon on March 22, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
My belief is that somewhere about the time the neighborhood watch guy started following Trayvon he forfeited his right to the "stand your ground" defense. He didn't have to get close enough to "feel threatened". He saw a black kid he didn't know and immediately slapped an acting suspiciously label on him and everything went downhill from there.

Ditto
Give me a place to stand and a lever long enough,  and I will move the world.

Squirl

The fact that a teenager would be in dark clothing, in a gated community that he didn't live in, unescorted by any resident walking around in the rain, would be suspicious to me regardless of race.  He was not completely sure of the individuals race when he first called 911.

  When he actively pursued him while he was trying to flee, that usually crosses a different line.  At that point, I would say the teenager had just as much of a right to defend himself from the threat of someone chasing him.

I wasn't there and am not in law enforcement to get a feel for the credibility of the witnesses though.


MountainDon

QuoteThe fact that a teenager would be in dark clothing, in a gated community that he didn't live in, unescorted by any resident walking around in the rain, would be suspicious

Whoaa!!  Dark clothing makes you "guilty or suspicious"?  Damn I better rethink my wardrobe; black jeans and jacket are the norm for me in town. And when our son was a teenager it was hard to find something that was not black in his closet. He and his friends were a bunch of "shadows".

Walking in a gated community he didn't live in... ???  What, so nobody who lives in a gated community ever has visitors?   ???     When I walk through a local gated community I need to be escorted?   Sorry but there's something wrong with that thought process to me.   

The gated communities here that I am familiar with have gates to keep vehicles that don't belong out. The people gates have no locks, no keep out signs. Just a sign asking to keep the gate closed. No guards either, just electric vehicle gates.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Windpower



He was visiting his father who lived in the community as I understand it

I agree that the stand your ground laws are an important protection for lawful gun owners against agregious prosecutions by overzealous attorneys

BUT

How is someone screaming for help a threat to someone's life


I find it incomprehensible that Zimmerman is not in jail --- no evidence ?!?!? after 3 WEEKS
Often, our ignorance is not as great as our reluctance to act on what we know.

Squirl

Quote from: MountainDon on March 22, 2012, 10:06:08 AM
Whoaa!!  Dark clothing makes you "guilty or suspicious"?

Dark clothes don't make you "guilty" of anything.  I never said such a thing, please don't attribute that to me.  They alone, don't make anyone suspicious.  Dark clothes tend make people less noticeable in the dark.  When I was a teenager and was out late up to no good, we all wore dark clothes.  The local kids didn't wear safety orange when causing vandalism, they wore black. My thought process comes from experience.

Yes, people in gated communities have visitors all the time.  They are with usually the person they are visiting.  That is why they are called visitors.  That is the purpose of a gated community is to have people escorted or monitored when visiting.   If you wanted just anyone walking around that didn't live there, you wouldn't have gates.  I don't agree with the whole reasoning behind gated communities, that is why I don't live in one.

There is also the fact that he is a teenager.  Not individually suspicious, we were all one at one time, but the courts have recognized that their brains aren't fully developed and they don't always make good rational decisions.  Many activities, like vandalism, that would have gotten him punished a few months from now, he would instead be seeing a councilor.

The fact that he was walking around in the dark in the rain.  The average person tries to avoid that situation.

If you break down all the factors individually, all are not suspicious . Together, they are.  I try to put myself in another person's shoes.  If I was in his position and I could not see the race of the individual and all those other factors were going on, I might have called the police myself. 

In my neighborhood when I grew up, if you saw a teenage running around the neighborhood alone, in the dark, in the rain, dressed in black, and didn't live there, they were most likely vandalizing something and you called the police, regardless of race. I didn't even live in a gated community.

I would not have chased him with a gun.  That crosses a big bright line.

Squirl

Quote from: Windpower on March 22, 2012, 10:27:06 AM

How is someone screaming for help a threat to someone's life


I find it incomprehensible that Zimmerman is not in jail --- no evidence ?!?!? after 3 WEEKS

There is a lot of debate who is screaming for help.  Zimmerman and other witnesses claim it was him not Martin.  That will be up to a grand jury to decide.

The wheels of justice turn slowly.  3 - weeks is not much time to line up a grand jury and present witnesses and testimony.  A murder charge is a huge deal.  Falsely accusing someone would cost the county big $$$.  As long as they make a fair presentation to a grand jury and give Zimmerman a chance to testify, if he is indicted they have an iron clad defense of wrongful prosecution if he is found not guilty.  Right now this is all being tried by public media, which is selective and biased at best.  It is their job to sell a story, not present a true and complete picture.  I have been involved in a lot of high profile media cases, what is reported and what actually is considered credible evidence are usually far apart.


muldoon

I have heard bits and pieces about this event this week.  I don't know what happened, only the two people involved know what happened and one of them is dead.  From what I have gathered, this neighborhood watch guy has been quite involved in his neighborhood calling the cops repeatedly over the last year because the neighborhood has had a rash of robberies.  The cops routinely take hours to get there and the thiefs continue to get away.  So he clearly went overboard and took things into his own hands. 

As for whether or not he should have followed someone, there is no law against that.  There also is no law against self defense.  I think the most logical chain of events is that he went to confront this kid and the kid defended himself and a struggle happened.  During the struggle the neighborhood watch guy felt threatened enough to shoot the young man.  This young man was 6'2" and like 150 pounds.  He was athletic, I don't see how he would have any trouble avoiding (outrunning) the overweight man who was following him.  So he probably didn't run.  They fought, and this is not disputed.  Neighborhood watch guy shoots him during the fight. 

No winners here, not the boy, not the shooter, no ones families that are connected, and certainly not the community. 

* Yes, I tend to notice suspicious folks in my neighborhood.  It doesn't make them guilty, it means you be aware of your surroundings and when something sticks out, you trust your instincts.  I don't think anyone is saying that teenagers wearing dark clothes are criminals.   I am not saying you should seek out trouble or go around interrogating or harassing people for no reason, or dial 9-1 and wait for something to happen... 

Windpower



"Zimmerman and other witnesses claim it was him not Martin."



The screaming abruptly stops when shot is fired --- I think that settles who was screaming for help

You're gonna tell be this 250 pound self proclaimed community guardian  armed with his 9 mm pistol was screaming for help

you embarass your self, Squirl
Often, our ignorance is not as great as our reluctance to act on what we know.

Squirl

I didn't write I believed him.  Again attributing views to me I did not express.  I wrote that was a defense by him and others, and it is not up to me to decide.  Almost no reputable news agency will conclusively state that it was Martin, because they are afraid if they are wrong.  In the end it will be up to a jury of his peers.

Actually I could see a 250 lb wannabe with a gun screaming and crying when push came to shove.  I have seen many big powerful bullies turn to terrified children when someone fights back.  I guess you never stood up to many bullies. Like I said earlier, I don't know any of the individuals and I don't know what happened.  We are all speculating.

MountainDon

QuoteMy thought process comes from experience.

My thought process on the dark clothing statement comes from experience as well. My experience of having a closet full of dark clothing; only teo pair of light colored pants out of about a dozen total. And a selection of jackets and outerqear that are black, charcoal or predominantly dark colors. I walk around in them all the time and I do not engage in suspicious activities.  So I take exception with drawing any conclusions about the character, legal or illegal intent, of anyone person wearing dark clothes.

Back at the beginning of October there I was, alternately running and walking through the rain, wearing a hooded jacket pulled over my head. Started a mile and a half from my home. Suspicious? Maybe.  :-\ :-\  Or maybe I was running / walking alternately through the rain as I had left my car at the service center and was walking home when it began to rain. So I ran some and walked some because the jacket wasn't a real rain jacket and I didn't want to be soaked. If I had thought of taking the rain jacket instead I'd of been walking the whole distance. Very suspicious behavior.

The original statement I contested was that someone in dark clothing was a suspicious character. At least that was/is how I read the statement. If it was impossible initially to tell Trayvon was black it was also probably impossible to tell he was a teenager. 
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Squirl

As far as telling his age, I don't know much about Martin's size or demeanor.  He was clearly baby faced from the pictures and of lighter complexion.  He could have easily have been confused with Hispanic as much as black in low light, which Zimmerman is also.  He clearly answers with "I think black" when the dispatcher asks him if Martin is white, hispanic, or black.  Only later in the call when he gets closer does he confirm his previous answer.  It can be confusing.  I have friends who are Caribbean who are both black and hispanic, which some of Zimmerman's relatives are also and is not uncommon to see in Florida.

Maybe he couldn't tell his age. I think I might as likely call the police if it was an adult.  In situations where and adult is wandering around a gated community, in the dark, in dark clothes and he doesn't live there and a crime occurs, like hurting a child, then everyone is crying later that someone should have called the police.  Again, the dark clothes comment is because if someone wanted to commit a crime under the cover of darkness, they are going to wear darker clothes vs. fluorescent orange.  Dark clothing doesn't make anyone guilty of having committed a crime.


peternap

Quote from: Squirl on March 22, 2012, 01:21:29 PM
As far as telling his age, I don't know much about Martin's size or demeanor.  He was clearly baby faced from the pictures and of lighter complexion.  He could have easily have been confused with Hispanic as much as black in low light, which Zimmerman is also.  He clearly answers with "I think black" when the dispatcher asks him if Martin is white, hispanic, or black.  Only later in the call when he gets closer does he confirm his previous answer.  It can be confusing.  I have friends who are Caribbean who are both black and hispanic, which some of Zimmerman's relatives are also and is not uncommon to see in Florida.

Maybe he couldn't tell his age. I think I might as likely call the police if it was an adult.  In situations where and adult is wandering around a gated community, in the dark, in dark clothes and he doesn't live there and a crime occurs, like hurting a child, then everyone is crying later that someone should have called the police.  Again, the dark clothes comment is because if someone wanted to commit a crime under the cover of darkness, they are going to wear darker clothes vs. fluorescent orange.  Dark clothing doesn't make anyone guilty of having committed a crime.

And just what are the police going to do Squirl? He wasn't doing anything illegal and there was no clear and articulatible suspicion that he had committed a crime. Sure they can "ASK" him, but if he tells them to FO, as most people would, that's the end of it unless the cop wants to donate his pension to the suspect!
These here is God's finest scupturings! And there ain't no laws for the brave ones! And there ain't no asylums for the crazy ones! And there ain't no churches, except for this right here!

Squirl

Exactly Peter.  No crime, no problems, it wasn't Zimmerman's job.  If you think someone looks suspicious and might try to commit or have committed a crime you let the people know who's job it is to investigate. If Martin ran from the cops, that is a crime. Running from Zimmerman, not a crime.  I will go back to my example earlier, if a kid was running around in the neighborhood I grew up in alone, in the dark, in the rain, dressed in black, and didn't live there, a cop would ask him who he was, what he was doing, and where he was going.  The police would look to see if he had spray paint, eggs, toilet paper, broken glass shards on him, or any other thing noticeable. They would get the person's name and if there were any crimes in the vicinity that night, that person would be suspect #1 if he didn't have a good explanation.  Again, just because I say suspect, doesn't mean he is guilty of anything.  There is a big difference between being a suspect and a criminal.  That person does have the right to tell the police to FO, but he usually has to at least give his name, sometimes identifying information, and usually his parent's name if he is under 18.  Also the fact that the police talk to someone in person and gets his name would normally be enough to prevent someone considering criminal behavior that night.

As was the information in this, if Zimmermann stayed in his car and a clearly marked police officer walked up to Martin, I would be willing to bet things would have been a lot different.  As long as Martin acted like the good kid that everyone in the media is describing, they would probably helped the kid get home in an unfamiliar area, and told Zimmermann to shove it. 

When during the dispatch call Zimmermann stated, "these a**holes always get away," and stated chasing him, it sounded he had taken it upon himself to do someone else job.

peternap

Quote from: Squirl on March 22, 2012, 04:07:44 PM
Exactly Peter.  No crime, no problems, it wasn't Zimmerman's job.  If you think someone looks suspicious and might try to commit or have committed a crime you let the people know who's job it is to investigate. If Martin ran from the cops, that is a crime. Running from Zimmerman, not a crime.  I will go back to my example earlier, if a kid was running around in the neighborhood I grew up in alone, in the dark, in the rain, dressed in black, and didn't live there, a cop would ask him who he was, what he was doing, and where he was going.  The police would look to see if he had spray paint, eggs, toilet paper, broken glass shards on him, or any other thing noticeable. They would get the person's name and if there were any crimes in the vicinity that night, that person would be suspect #1 if he didn't have a good explanation.  Again, just because I say suspect, doesn't mean he is guilty of anything.  There is a big difference between being a suspect and a criminal.  That person does have the right to tell the police to FO, but he usually has to at least give his name, sometimes identifying information, and usually his parent's name if he is under 18.  Also the fact that the police talk to someone in person and gets his name would normally be enough to prevent someone considering criminal behavior that night.

As was the information in this, if Zimmermann stayed in his car and a clearly marked police officer walked up to Martin, I would be willing to bet things would have been a lot different.  As long as Martin acted like the good kid that everyone in the media is describing, they would probably helped the kid get home in an unfamiliar area, and told Zimmermann to shove it. 

When during the dispatch call Zimmermann stated, "these a**holes always get away," and stated chasing him, it sounded he had taken it upon himself to do someone else job.

Then we agree on everything....except that it's illegal to run from the police. Not in Va. unless you're in a vehicle or that he would have given his name. No one ever answers those contact card questions.

I really hope they Bar B Q Zimmerman. We are working on codifying the common law Castle Doctrine we enjoy. This case will make bringing a bill before next years General Assembly....dangerous.
These here is God's finest scupturings! And there ain't no laws for the brave ones! And there ain't no asylums for the crazy ones! And there ain't no churches, except for this right here!

Squirl

Peter,
I thought VA had a stop and identify law.

I am not expert in Florida law, but it appears they would have that scenario covered in one statute.

QuoteAmong the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether such alarm or immediate concern is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or herself or any object.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0856/Sections/0856.021.html

It looks like in Florida, even if you are "in a place, at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals", if you run from the police or don't identify and explain yourself, it is a misdemeanor.

Sorry for the thread drift, I enjoy talking about the law and legal scenarios.  This is for discussion purposes only and not legal advice.

peternap

Quote from: Squirl on March 23, 2012, 09:13:55 AM
Peter,
I thought VA had a stop and identify law.

No and we fought hard to keep it off the books. A few localities have one on their local laws but as a Commonwealth we fall under the Dillon rule ad they are unenforceable unless the GA gives them the authority, which they won't if I have anything to do with it.

What we do have, although very few cops are smart enough to know it, is the old common law that requires anyone asked after dark, to state their name and resident town. There's no requirement to show ID (They hadn't invented it then ;D)

I am not expert in Florida law, but it appears they would have that scenario covered in one statute.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0856/Sections/0856.021.html

It looks like in Florida, even if you are "in a place, at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals", if you run from the police or don't identify and explain yourself, it is a misdemeanor.

Doesn't surprise me! I have enough trouble keeping up with Va law :-\

Sorry for the thread drift, I enjoy talking about the law and legal scenarios.  This is for discussion purposes only and not legal advice.

Me too!
These here is God's finest scupturings! And there ain't no laws for the brave ones! And there ain't no asylums for the crazy ones! And there ain't no churches, except for this right here!

dug

I have followed this story with interest for the last several weeks and am surprised that no one here has really broached the racial aspect involved in this issue.

After calling 911 this self proclaimed "cop" was told to stop pursuit, advice which he ignored, and then proceeded to run down and shoot an unarmed youth. Were the races of these individuals reversed I would be shocked had there not been an arrest by now.


NM_Shooter

We are pretty good to jumping to conclusions. 

Net rumor has it that there is a witness supporting the claim that Zimmerman was attacked. 

I don't think anyone should be Bar B Q'd without a fair trial first.  Only two people know for sure what happened that night. 

Zimmerman made a huge mistake in following.  We had a somewhat similar case here in NM.  A former marine chased down someone who was trying to steal his car and shot him.

 
"Officium Vacuus Auctorita"

NM_Shooter

"Officium Vacuus Auctorita"

Squirl

#22
Maybe dug, but then would racism not still be the issue?  From the evidence I have seen an African American man shooting a hispanic unarmed teen should be in the same position.  He was lawfully licensed to carry a fire arm.  If the question comes down to if the death was self defense, and the facts of the confrontation are not 100% clear by the police on the scene, they should bring it to the grand jury.  In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. The media story has some glaring facts that they are not reporting, such as what did the police see that night that lead them not to arrest?  Did they only see the race of the two characters or were there witnesses and physical evidence?

At the time the police showed up the shooter had a broken nose, a grass stained shirt and a gash on his head.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-killing-lead-prosecutor-george-zimmerman-walk/story?id=16000239
Martin, although baby faced, was a half a foot taller and more athletic than Zimmerman.
According to reports a witness told police that night that Martin was attacking Zimmerman.  According to the reports Zimmerman was on the ground, beaten bloodied and screaming for help when he shot Martin.  According to witnesses, they have a 911 tape with Zimmerman screaming for help before shooting.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

The physical evidence and testimony from witness is enough to justify not making an arrest on the spot and letting it go to a grand jury.  But that is not a good story for the news. It doesn't generate outrage. It doesn't sell papers.  Unfortunately for Zimmerman, many of the racial problems for this entire country are getting heaped on to this one case. 

Maybe Zimmerman is a racist, and he was racial profiling when he decided to follow Martin.  Although it is detestable as human being, it is not criminal.  Maybe Zimmerman wanted to follow him to yell racial epithets at Martin.  Maybe he did.  He would be a waste of humanity if he did, but that is not criminal.  If Martin turned around and attacked him for it, and started beating Zimmerman half to death out of rage, which is an understandable human emotion but not legal justification, it is still a justifiable homicide on Zimmerman's part.

Squirl

You beat me to the posting shooter.

Pox Eclipse

Quote from: NM_Shooter on March 26, 2012, 09:28:17 AM
Here... watch the video too.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

I don't see anything in that article to support the headline that Martin attacked Zimmerman.   Zimmerman stalked Martin through the rain with the intent of preventing a "f****ing coon" from getting away.  If he assaulted Martin (by grabbibng him), Martin is certainly justified in defending himself, and if Zimmerman ends up on the losing end of the tussle, it can hardly be described as Martin "attacking" Zimmerman. 

Zimmerman got what was coming to him; Martin did not.