Found Our Property - Water Is a Problem

[DevilDogSixEight]

My wife and I found some property locally.  It is hilly with a wonderful view and pretty in the fall.  I have talked with the owner a few times about it and I knew there was an issue with getting water to the site.  He has had several folks look at it and water was always the issue.

I have called the local water department and they say it is a gravity issue.  I understand that.

I was also told there is a lot of iron in the ground water.

My father-in-law says it will take a lot to get the iron out of the water if we dig a well.  I'm not sure how far down the water is, but everyone is sure it will be several thousand dollars to dig one.

Oh, did I forget to mention the natural gas wells?  There are at least three that surround the property.  I have talked to a friend of mine who works for a gas company (not the one who owns these wells) and he mentioned "fracking."  I had never heard of fracking, but my dad apparently has and says it will put gas in your water.  I don't know anything about that.  What little I have read, I believe I'd rather have the city water.

I am going to try to go out tomorrow with my GPS and get elevations.  At least we haven't bought anything yet.

[glenn kangiser]

Fracking is an oil company bad practice that breaks up the integrity of the underground formations that naturally seal the aquifers from one another and from the gas and oil.  It makes it easier for them to extract gas from the formation but also makes it easier to pollute everything under the ground. 

It is like turning the earth layers into a giant underground hydraulic jack.  They put pressure under the sealed layers and can pump it up until the earth breaks open underneath allowing the gas to flow through the cracks and into their well ....and your well and your neighbors well and possibly to the surface.  It cannot be well controlled.  Sometimes the put solids into the pumped open area to hold it open and keep it flowing.

Oklahoma - earthquakes ... nah - not fracking .....[ouch]

[rick91351]

About your well, talk to a couple very highly recommended drillers in your area.  Most states drillers logs are available on the net.  They will include location of wells, depth drilled, gallons per minute, often times might include some drillers notes.

I would think if you could get a well drilled right now for a couple thousand jump all over that.  It is running close to $10,000 here with casing, wellhead permit and tag.  However no pump, no electrical, no wiring, no pipe, and of course no promise of water.

This is a shot in the dark, are there any springs on the property?  You might have to invest a thousand or so to develop one plus the cost of a cistern.  They are good water source if developed properly.  I have developed several, in fact I put one in yesterday for our future house.  We will have to let it settle in and find out what the flow is.  However last night when we left the ranch it was well over a gallon per minute.  That should double in flow in the next couple days as the spring hydraulics in better.  We had a huge excavator in there digging and cleaning it out.  That tends to seal it up for a little while.  On the other hand it might stop flowing all together!

Even if it produces a gallon a minute, if you trap that into a cistern in twenty four hours you now have 1440 gallons of water.  The average family of four can use about 400 gallons of water per day in an older home.  You will be constructing a new home taking advantage of new water saving ideas and appliances.  Low flow shower heads and water sense toilets.  So you should have plenty for a garden and flowers.

About fracking.....  what I have read and seen I do not like it.  I think the science is flawed greatly and not taking in all the risks. 

Here is a video from an anti-fracking site

http://www.gaslandthemovie.com/whats-fracking

Here is a pro-fracking site.

http://energytomorrow.org/energy/hydraulic-fracturing?gclid=CJee9MPP5KwCFRBphwodjQ_XOQ#/type/all

These are not the definitive answers.  Do some research decide for yourself it is is safe or not.  I have not studied it real well because Idaho has no natural gas nor oil or coal, nor oil shale.  I doubt fracking will ever be an issue here unless the start fracking granite and lava rocks for god knows what? 

[UK4X4]

average aquifer 150-350 ft deep

average gas well 10,000ft deep - in CO on the ones I worked on - 18,000ft deep were the ones in the valleys.

yep fracking makes cracks in the formation of interest- 1000's of feet from where you pull the water

yes there is the odd time where a bad cement job means you have vertical connections - but its rare and usually repaired before perforations and fracking is even thought of.

Are there areas where petrochemicals polute aquifers - yes- mostly been like that for years- due to geological faults. think of tar lakes and oil seeps

Have there been issues- yes the odd well - in the odd field-

is it the norm - no

This is bad gas well blowout   8-)
http://englishrussia.com/2008/03/25/darvaz-the-door-to-hell/

Now a major tourist attraction in the middle of no where !

The average journalist knows little about the oil field and even less about the resorvoirs and down hole conditions.

It a bit like "Diver survives bush fire sat in swimming pool using his oxygen tank"---err sorry divers use compressed air.

Every diver on the planet knows that- the office based journalist looking for page fillers can't be bothered to get the facts right.

Fracking is not a new technology- its been arround for years-

every major oil company uses it in some of their wells- if required- basicly just pumping water with sand particles a couple of 1000psi over existing resorvoir pressures.

Ie the present well I've been looking at here in CO is a gas well - 8500ft deep - they will be fracking it- present resorvoir pressure is 6700psi- just by nature
the frack will be under 10K as thats the rating of the well head equipment

[MushCreek]

I had the chance to talk to a number of people (not journalists) in central PA, where a lot of gas is obtained by fracking. From what they said, much of the groundwater in their area is unusable due to contamination. I don't know if they really know what's going on or not, but I wouldn't buy land in an area where fracking is being used, unless I could get another source of water.

[UK4X4]

There are usually multiple aquifers in the average oilfield - the uppers where standard water wells are used and other lower ones.

Most oil resorvoirs have 3 components gas-oil-water with all three items present in varying quantities gas on top oil and water at the bottom.

These gasses and fluids can be in varying layers of sand shale and rock.

There are always vertical faults arround- some very dificult to see using 2D surveys- but obvious in 3d

some small oil and gas companies simply wildcat - not even checking what they have as the surveys are very expencive- so yes a natural benign verticle fault can be opened during a fracking operation.

It could also open naturally from the next tremor- earthquake.

trying to see whats happening down hole at 18,000ft is a tad dificult

A new micro seismic measurement system is the latest tool that looks for and see's microfractures occuring in 3D by multiple sensors down hole and at surface.

Again its not cheap and won't stop natural fissures being opened.


Would I buy a property who's only water came from an area being actively drilled- probably not- as there's always a risk

[alex trent]

Have you thought about collecting rainfall.  In C. PA you get about 40 inches/year.  That means on a collector surface of 400 sq. ft., each inch gives you about 200 gallons.  That is 8,000 gallons a year. Likely have to subtract 3,000 for what comes as snow. So, 5,000 gals. Not enough unless you are frugal with it or just use the place on occasion.  But if your house has a 1,000 sq ft. roof, you get  8,000 useable. If still not enough, you can build an additional collector for very little money and get what you need.

It's actually pretty simple to do.

You will need some storage...2,000 gallon tank is less than $1,000.  You can work around the winter "frozen water" problems.

You will get clean pure water for not a lot of investment.

[Squirl]

Fracking is a hot topic in upstate PA and NY.
My recollection was the Duke study was one of the most conclusive by chemically linking the methane from the wells to ground water contamination within 1500 ft of the well.
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/05/02/1100682108.full.pdf+html

I don't know your location so much of this can be regional. Check you states laws.  Most states have a minimum setback for houses and drilling operations.  You may not have permission to even build if you wanted to. 

Drilling costs are high around me too.  I fear the "drill as deep as your pockets will go" most of all.  "Or how deep will your well be? Just count how many drilling rods the truck holds when it shows up."  I am going with rainwater catchment.  It is technically allowed by the state of NY and built into the code of Ohio and Texas.  It means a limited amount, but a fixed cost and lower energy bills.  Depending on how close you are to one of those misting ponds for fracking fluids, I wouldn't recommend that either.

[Rob_O]

Here's an idea... Forget the water, drill a gas well! You'll be using Perrier for bathing in no time!

[Dave Sparks]

Have you thought about collecting rainfall.  In C. PA you get about 40 inches/year.  That means on a collector surface of 400 sq. ft., each inch gives you about 200 gallons.  That is 8,000 gallons a year. Likely have to subtract 3,000 for what comes as snow. So, 5,000 gals. Not enough unless you are frugal with it or just use the place on occasion.  But if your house has a 1,000 sq ft. roof, you get  8,000 useable. If still not enough, you can build an additional collector for very little money and get what you need.

It's actually pretty simple to do.

You will need some storage...2,000 gallon tank is less than $1,000.  You can work round the winter "frozen water" problems.

You will get nee clean put water for not a lot of investment.



Good advice and you may be able to have it delivered until you finish the project !

[Okie Bob]

The debate over fracing is a recent one. We have been fracing oil and gas wells for over 60 years now and I personally have drilled and fraced wells so obviously have a bias. There are exceptions to everthing and I don't claim any expertise, I could be wrong. By now, everyone has heard about the EPA's press release this week on some wells in Wyoming that they say 'could be contaminating' water wells
in a very small area. The industry disputes this 'study' and for good reasons.
There are literally thousands of wells in Ok and Tx that have been fraced and there is not a single case of ground water contamination in over 60 years!!!! Anything is possible but, I would have no problem drinking water near a fraced well and I'm pretty particular about what I drink.
The materials used in fracing a well are usually salt water and sand. There are very small amounts of chemicals added to this mix mainly to reduce surface tension. The salt water could be replaced with fresh water or sometime crude oil is used. The sand is simply the same silicon sand you find on the beach..it is graded for size and it's clean. It is called a 'propant' because the fractures opened up by the hydraulic pressure would close back up if sand were not forced into them to 'prop' the fractures open. The fractures are produced in the shale or sandstone formation where the hydrocarbons are located and typically several thousand feet below the surface while the water wells are typically less than 500' below the surface, making them unable to communicate with each other even after fracing. I could go on and on but, suffice it to say I would have no problem having a well drilled and fraced on my property by a reputable contractor.

[alex trent]

The fracking issue aside, this was originally about drilling for water and the cost of the process..as I understood it to be in excess of $10,000 with no pump ...or even a promise of water.  For $3,000 you can have a first rate collector, 2,000 gallon tank and some low tech but very effective devices to  divert the first flows off the collector each time it rains, so you get the roof debris off and not in the tank.  I just did one and tanks are full (we have a 4 month dry season) and I marvel about how easy it all was.

[rick91351]

The fracking issue sort of stole your tread.  It happens!  If using the $10,000 I threw on the table please talk to someone local area.  That is here in the area I know about.  I did not mean to frighten you off from drilling.  Always talk to good local reputable companies for anything be it wells, septic or what ever.  Never from a forum or the internet.......

I will PM you.