Solar -- the Okie BoB and Glenn e-mail chronicals

[glenn kangiser]

Okie BoB emailed me a few questions and we agreed to post them here to maybe stimulate some solar and wind questions and answers.

Here goes:

______
> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:30:42 -0500
        > From: bob
        > Subject: Off-grid electrical system.
        > To: glenn-k
        >
        > Hey Glenn, was just reading your last post on the off-grid thread and was truly amazed!! Somehow it has escaped my mind that you are 100% off-grid and then seeing how much capability you have I just have to ask about your system. I know you've mentioned parts of it from time to time but, maybe
        > you could give me a blow by blow description of your system as if I were going to duplicate it....which I just might want to do someday!
        > I do have propane now but only use it for oven, outdoor grill and fireplace. Started to go with same hot water unit you have but, backed off due to installation issues...can easily change it now. I'd love to get off grid but.... So can you give me a typical cost to get as much power as you have?
        > Okie Bob
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Bob
______
   
        From: glenn kangiser
        To: Bob
        Cc:
        Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:36:37 -0700
        Subject: RE: Off-grid electrical system.
         
        Hey, Bob.  I just got in from working in Sacramento area, so be sure to reply with questions so I can expand on this -- heres a brief rundown

        2-- 4024 Trace Sine wave inverters stacked for 240v or 120v.  Do not get modified sine wave -- they burn stuff up and aren't worth the savings. $1500 each used plus cable to synchronize phases.  These are old style -- but must be matched to work together.  List is over $3k each.  There are some bargains on used - mor EBAY if you are careful.

        12 -- L-16 batteries $175 or so each

        2000 watts of solar panels -- about  $5 per watt.

        Bergey XL1 wind generator -- 1Kw -- about $2500 plus tower -- make your own or about $2500 more.

        That is about the main part of it without the mistakes and costly experiments.  It is not a beautiful system -- it grew as I needed it -- too much done mickey mouse to do it all right immediately but it works well.  I have a setup using Ford car relays and a 110 to 220 relay to pump water when I have excess power.  You can't disconnect the wind generator or it will fly apart.  You need to burn off the excess power with a load -- I use the water pump.

        Please feel free to ask questions.

        Glenn
______
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:26:31 -0500
        From: bob
        Subject: re[2]: Off-grid electrical system.
        To: glenn-k

        Hey Glenn,thanks for the info. The first question that comes to mind is about the inverters. I might be able to buy from Xantrex at a huge discount. I am a representative for them for their programmable power supply line and even know the CEO...well had a drink with him recently. Would the Xantrex be as good as the Trace unit you recommend?
        I'm making a wild guess here but suspect the 4024 Trace units indicate a 2KW capability? If so, does that mean you have 4KW total? And if so, I'm assuming the Bergey gen is an additional 1KW? Or is that part of the 4KW? Since you have 2KW of solar panels maybe you get 2KW from them and 1KW from the Bergey for a total of 3KW?
        Also, how can I calculate how long and at what rate can I go with the 12 batteries you have? And what is the life expectancy of these batteries? I assume they are lead acid? Have you tried one of the pulse chargers now available? They have one that has a small solar panel that comes with it. This would never provide nearly enough power to do any good but, might extend battery life if this pulse technology is for real, which I feel sure it is.
        Sorry for all the questions, don't mean to bug you and take you time responding. I'm working at the lake as usual but now have some internet capability using my cell phone tethered to my laptop.
        Thanks again,
        Regards,
        Bob

[glenn kangiser]

______


     
    From: glenn kangiser
    To: Bob
    Cc:
    Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:16:07 -0700
    Subject: RE: re[2]: Off-grid electrical system.
     
    Hey Buddy, I'm more awake this morning.

    Xantrex bought out and is Trace.  There are some who say that the new Xantrex is not as reliable as the old Trace, but wouldn't put a lot of stock in that.  I'd still trust the Xantrex.

    No, Bob. 4024 - 4000 watts 24 volts -- I have 8000 watts to play with 2 4kw inverters stacked for 240 v or 120 v .  Bergey just charges the Batteries at 1 KW max (but I have seen it at 1.5 in high wind)..

    I'm not near an electrical engineer, but think I have the following right.  Bergey 1000 watts or 1 kwh per hour at max.  Lets say I average 2 or 3 KWH per day from it.

    The solar panels are 2 KW total or 2 kWh (kWh as I refer to it =1000 watts for 1 hour.)  per hour max.  Say around 6 hours max usable  or 12 kWh per day max.  That should give me 10 to 15 kWh per day to play with during out sunny times -- maybe 6 months during summer -- winter months are less but since we don't need to pump much water for 3 or 4 months it balances pretty well.

    The batteries are 375 Ah at 6v each series into 24V and paralleled in 3 groups to give me 1125 Ah at 24 volts  with about 1/2 usable (as a bad boy I sometimes draw them down more in the winter -- not good for the batteries.  This gives me 27000 watts or 13500 usable . so  13.5 kWh which in the winter might keep me 3 days without adding generator power since I don't often pump water in the winter.  Remarkably I haven't calced this before and it actually closely matches my real conditions.

    The batteries are expected to last 5 years.   A forklift battery can sometimes be gotten free and rejuvenated  and has a life of around 20 years.  You need the heavy batteries and PWM charger for long life and breaking up sulfates that can form under low charge conditions.  MPPT such as Outback regulators can give you more usable power from the same panels as well as installing a tracker.  The batteries are lead/antimony / acid which are much tougher batteries for heavy deep cycle use without warping the plates.  They have a faster self discharge than plain batteries but in daily cycling use you will never notice it.

    The Xantrex PWM regulator I have is pulse.  Any other pulse charger is good too as it breaks down the sulfate.

    Hope you don't mind -- I'd like to add this info to the forum as I'm way too lazy to type it twice.

    Keep asking questions and I'll post it for all later.

    Internet on the cell phone --- you are high tech, Bob.

    Glenn
______

 

[glenn kangiser]

    Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:26:39 -0500
    From: bob
    Subject: re[4]: Off-grid electrical system.
    To: glenn-k

    Glenn, sorry to take so long to respond. Business has been business and sometimes I have to work to keep it going!
    To begin, of course, add this to the forum as you see fit. It could help someone else, if there is anyone as uneducated in this area as myself.
    I made a bunch of bad assumptions and glad to see that I did as you have a much larger system than I had imagined!
    Could you put together a list of equipment to get the power you have now, with prices someone would have to pay today? It looks to me
    that you have been able to put a very nice system together for much less than I would have expected but, at todays prices where would it be?
    Are you totally off-grid? No connections to the grid at all? It looks like you use all the power you generate without any to sell back to the power company?
    In that regard, in some of my initial reading it seems that using grid power costs a lot more than what they pay you for power you send back to them. Is that
    why you don't try?
    And how often do you need to run your gas generator? It sounds like not at all and that would be great. And how would the loss of your wind generator hurt you? Since it only provides 1KW charging power it doesn't seem to be critical for your needs.
    I'm sure more questions will come to mind when I have some time to think about it again. Also, if you put this in the forum we might get others to submit questions or ideas as well.
    Thanks again amigo mia!!
     
    Regards,
    Okie Bob
    ______

Hey BoB,

Always good to hear from you.  A Pilots first responsibility is to fly the plane.  After that we have time to learn and socialize. etc.  Work comes first.  I'll cut and paste appropriate portions to th forum.

Yes , I can probably come up with numbers.  I will leave out the costs of my experimenting and just put something together  based on what I would do if I did it knowing what I have learned over the years.

We are totally off grid.  It is about 500 feet away but they made me mad playing games with me so I decided that I didn't need them.

Selling power back to the power company is a joke if you make excess.  Net metering is not as bad - you just size a bit below what you need annually then pay them the difference.  You use them as a storage battery adding when you have extra and taking when you are short.  The problem arises if you make more than you need.  They only pay avoided cost.  It probably works out to about 10% of their billing price.  Say it's $.10 per kWh.  They might pay you $.01 so it is a total ripoff written to benefit them only.  I heard of them laughing about it when the deregulation went through.  They knew they would make even more money.

The gas generator I run maybe a few hours a week in the winter especially during calm time  and overcast  or cloudy for a long time.  Inearly never run it for 9 months of the year, and could likely eliminate the other 3 with work and good planning.  It works well enough now, I hardly ever do anything except check the water levels every few months.

No wind generator?  I'd lose about 1/4 of my power.  It runs morning and afternoon during the summer as the valley heats up and cools off.  It also runs when there is wind at night -- no solar then, and it runs during storms, negligible solar then.  I may add a few panels but I think I will build a small wind generator pretty soon.  Cost per kWh is less for wind than solar panels and it covers a different time slot, though here it is fairly dependable.  This area is not great for commercial wind generation but my mountain is ideal for small scale home wind generation and is pretty consistent.  Even adding more panels  during storms would not do anything compared to the several hundred to over a thousand watts the generator puts out.  1 kWh added per hour is quite a bit.--granted I only get a few hundred watts per hour when slow but it all adds up to equal better power and battery health.

They say solar still works when cloudy or overcast-- I say it's not enough to worry about - you need backup such as the wind generator or a generator or both preferably.

Feel free to keep e-mailing me - I'll copy the appropriate parts to the forum.

'Til your next questions, My friend,

Glenn
   

     

[BiggKidd]

 

  Great post Glenn, Bob,

I think many of us want to do the off grid thing. Its just so expensive in the begining. I have an internet friend who spent $200,000 Yep thats right two hundred thousand for his system. He runs a mold making shop and his house off of it. Thats includes a full line of machine shop type machines. His local power Co. wanted $300,000 to run power out to his place. Its a three phase system. He is almost ready to move in so he hasn't actually run all his stuff there yet.

I know we are going to be off grid when we move. We have the start of a system up and running. For the most part I think we will try to go hydro and wind, with a small bit of solar. Even if we have to run a gas gen. a bit each day it would still come out cheaper than having power run in. As long as we can supply gas each day for less than we are paying for power in our home now we are winning.

Please post some pictures of your system.

Larry

[MountainDon]

Comments, Grid Tied vs Off Grid.

First my comments are primarily aimed at PV Solar, not wind or water, neither of which we have a dependable supply of.

Grid Tie has the advantage of not requiring any batteries at all, if one desires. That of course would leave you in the dark during any outage. One could also choose to go with a small battery bank, one that would tide through an emergency situation, if it didn't outlast your battery capacity. That's a personal decision. If sized to closely match your actual overall use you can end up with very small power bills.

Net metering is where the meter will actually run backwards when the PV array generates a surplus. At the end of a billing period you either pay the power company for the shortfall, or they owe you. What happens if the power company owes you? Well, that may vary from company to company. I can only speak for our local power company, but they credit your bill for the net number of KwH of excess power you generated. That carries forward month to month. They carry the power amount used/generated, not a dollar amount. The credits will add up but they will not pay you in cash. If you leave the power grid system (disconnect or sell the property for example) you get paid on the avoided cost basis. Avoided cost payback is to be avoided as you will never see enough to pay for the PV panels.

So first step is to look over the existing power use, if already grid connected. See what can be reduced. Then size the PV array. Depending on use and generation ability you can find the sweet spot where when averaged over a year your cash payment to the power company is very little.

Not all power companies may allow grid tie and batteries in conjunction. Ask them.

Not all generation equipment will necessarily be listed on your power companies approved list. Once again check. Primarily they want to be assured of the quality of the power output. That means no cheapy inverters allowed.

Some power companies offer a more involved metering system where time of day is taken into account. Generally those value daytime power at a higher rate than nighttime power. Once again ask the local company.

If you are Off Grid you have the advantage of never owing the power company anything. You do need to have a well sized set of batteries. Too big is better than too small. If Off Grid you must make allowances for low sunlight periods. You also need a generator, if only to do a proper equalization charge once a month. If you love your batteries you must to that. Optimally you will never discharge the batteries by more than 25% of their rated capacity. That's ideal, maybe not always achieved.

If you have access to great pricing on Xantrex there is no reason not to take advantage of it. A pure sine wave inverter is the only way to go for a serious full time system. For one thing anything with a motor in it will run cooler and last longer. There are other pitfalls that may occur with so called modified sine wave inverters.

A generator can also be connected with a monitoring system that will auto start the generator when the batteries reach some predetermined point. I haven't looked into that, but probably it may involve $$. IMO, generators are evil, noisy, smelly things, but an absolute necessity for Off Grid. I'd rather only run it to properly maintain the batteries or for emergencies I'd rather not need to run it because I use more power than by batteries can supply for normal periods of no wind, no sun, no whatever.

[MountainDon]

One more thing with Grid Tie. The power company may insist that the system setup be done by a qualified licensed electrical contractor. Ask them.

Off Grid you can do whatever the permitting/inspection people will allow you do do. NEC still in force.

[glenn kangiser]

A cheaper off grid system will require you to retrain yourself a bit, but it is very satisfying to know that you do not need the power company.

I will try to get a few selected pictures of my system, Larry, but am 120 miles away working now.

My system is rather ...organic -- it grew by itself so some of it may scare some of the purists, but I will see what I can safely come up with.   May be a good time to straighten some of it up a bit so I can get some good pix...and Don, I have to build a rack for those panels laying on the roof some day.

I know -- it needs attention...safety upgrades, but it does work very well and so far I haven't fried any small animals or children.

[glenn kangiser]

Well, Okie BoB and I started this but we wanted everybody to join in and JRR has had some great ideas to present, so here's the first installment from him.

JRR
Senior Member
****

   
Your and Okie Bob's email chronicles.
« Sent to: glenn kangiser on: April 24, 2008, 11:23:15 »


Interesting exchange.  "Getting of the grid" ...I have never actually ventured into the subject matter but have thought a minute or two about it.  My older brother, having travelled through much of the Orient, has seeded my thinking.  He says he saw many small hydro-generators (over there) supplying down to the smallest of hamlets ... no flowing water was wasted, not even the smallest of streams.  This "tells" me; that there must be a number of well-developed very small hydro-generator sets available out there somewhere.

So bear with me:  Let's assume a building site is "wind rich" with variable winds, and one desires to avoid large banks of batteries ... can energy be stored in a "water column"?

Let's assume you could happily get by with 20 Kwh per day of consumption.  Huh?  Lets also assume you have such a hill that a 100 foot elevation difference is possible.  Huh?  If I did my math correctly, 10000 cuft of water would meet this need for 24 hrs with no replenishment.  So a 100ft x 10ft x 10ft (plus) trench at the top of the hill and a similar one at the bottom would meet the storage need if wind is assumed to vary extremely over a 24hr period.  A direct pipe from upper to lower storage pools would supply the hydro-generator.  A separate line(s) would bring the water uphill.

To keep things simple, we only use direct-water-pumping wind-mills ... and as many of these "wind-pumps" placed along the side of the hill (each with associated small pumping pools) as needed to overcome the "head" and for the flow required.  The flow would need to be 7 cuft/min (avg) or thereabouts.  (Water can be dumped down hill to dissipate excessive pump capacity when demand is low, or to prevent the higher pumps going dry.)

Now 7 cuft/min ain't no little stream and I don't know what the typical farm wind-pump is capable of ... it may take a parallel system of one or more up-hill runs.

But in the end you have a system that is purely hydro-mechanical (except for controls) until the hydro-generator is turned down at the bottom of the hill.  A hydro-generator package would be a very pure sine wave generator and a well regulated one, I would think.  And, unlike with batteries, a 100% pull-down is OK!

A system of solar panels and coupled pumps could be used for agumenting the uphill pumping ... and they could be comparitively crude.

We in the Southeast could have our water pools open.  But where evaporation is a problem, they would have to be covered ... perhaps even totally enclosed and chemically protected from freezing, etc, etc.

(Food for thought. Be kind to an old man....)


...and my reply

glenn kangiser
The Troglodyte

   
Re: Your and Okie Bob's email chronicles.
« Sent to: JRR on: April 24, 2008, 21:34:19 »
   

I always enjoy your thoughts and input on the forum, JRR.

I have thought of this briefly and you are right-- it could be a way to store energy and use it.  A giant water battery.  No reason it wouldn't work on small scale and in fact, California has a giant one doing exactly that.  Ferrocrete storage tanks are pretty cheap.

http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/sites/sanluis/sanluis.html

I am in a good position to do that except that I have a spring that is 450 feet elevation below me and my well water is pumped from 169 to 330 feet down at my current pump setting.

Possibly we need to brainstorm on this a bit and get some experimentation going.

With your permission I'd like to add this to our discussion.

You've been a great lot of help to a lot of members over the years.  Thanks and keep those ideas coming.

[glenn kangiser]

Thinking JRR's idea over and looking at some inf, I think the amount of water for the power generated could be greatly reduced due to the fact that I have around 450 feet of fall on my property.  Key to making this work would be getting the water to the top of the  mountain for free.

Here is the next reply from JRR.

JRR
Senior Member
****


Re: Your and Okie Bob's email chronicles.
« Sent to: glenn kangiser on: Today at 09:37:43 »
   

One thing about the concept I really like, is that it is mostly mechanical in nature ... and might encourage more non-electrical folks to participate.  Of course the  important key component would be the hydro-generator itself.  I've done no shopping/looking yet, but hopefully there are available simple-to-install self contained farm-size sets that would give a well regulated electrical output and would also include a miser-minded water input control valve ... so that water would be closely throttled and energy conserved.

You are correct, we need some experiments underway ... of all sorts.

Thanks for your kind comments ... but we know who is THE MAN ... its the guy who is "off grid", "underground", the major website contributor ... and all the while, a humorist.  Many kudos to you, my friend!

Of course, you have my permission for posting.

[Willy]

Thats a lot of water! 10,000 cu ft is 75,000 gals and would take a lot of electricity to pump up a hill that steep. Even at 25 gpm it would take 50 hours. That is what my 1 1/2 HP well pump puts out and I would hate to see how much electricty it would take to pump for 2 days to make power with the 100 ft drop later. The loss in pumping it up, loss in the pipe friction up and down would make you use more power than it could pervide later. If you had a water sourse up on the hill it would be a different story. Mark

[glenn kangiser]

I think it could only be for special extra demand in my case, with solar up hill on a small scale -- not real practical.

I got another email from BoB.


    Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:48:17 -0500
    From: bob
    Subject: re[6]: Off-grid electrical system.
    To: glenn-k@msn.com

    Glenn, your input is invaluable and your experience is very helpful compared to the sales babble I find on most vendor websites.
    The reason I ask about cost is that what I keep hearing is how expensive it is to get started and also to maintain a home off gird.
    It doesn't seem to me you have nearly as much expense as I had expected, hence the questions about cost.
     
    I'm worried about the wind generator for my place. My lot is only 60' wide by about 300' long. It slopes from the house down
    to the water and that is due north. Rise from the water to the bottom of my deck is only 3'. The deck is floor is about 7' above that
    or 10' above the normal water level in the lake. The lot slopes up from there (going back south) and continues sloping up slightly after
    crossing the road (the south end of my lot). This means that when the wind is out of the south, the water in front of my house is basically
    calm, with hardly a ripple until you get out maybe 100 yards from shore. As a result, it's a favorite place for people to ski or jet ski when the wind is out of the south. (This is not good or preferred by me.) Plus, the wind is predominately out of the south especially during the hot summer months.
     
    So, it seems there is not enough wind to power a wind generator. When I was exploring this as an option, I found a graph showing areas with their ability to justify wind generators and our area was not considered a good location. So, if I go to a propane generator, it seems I'd have to run it a lot more and lose a lot of the cost justification of going off grid.
    All that being said, what do you think about (for my situation) using the grid when I can't get enough power from solar and propane? Would storage batteries still be worthwhile? I can't seem to get a handle on the effectiveness of a system still tied to the grid.
    What are your thoughts on this? I understand your problems with the electric company and greatly prefer to be totally off grid as you are but, not sure it
    makes economical sense for my situation.
     
    Regards,
    Bob

Arrrgh --- got stuck working, BoB.  Broke down my welder -- got another -- it broke down and got another to finish a 1 hour 20 minute balance of a job.  Drove 360 miles today to do that bit of work.  They're a few years old but not often this bad.

A lot of the expense involved in the off grid system is created if you hire someone to do it.  Contractors need to make large profits in todays business economy.  DIY is bet for the owner builder who can still read and think --- I wonder about me sometimes.

I would consider used as the old equipment is very good:

Used Trace SW4024 Series Inverters                                             

USED TRACE SW 4024 (Two Available) - 24 volt pure sine wave inverter,  pre Xantrex Trace Inverter.  Includes Manuals Prices do not include shipping. Weight 123 lbs. FOB Camp Denali, AK ZIP 99755.

SW4024 PRICE: $1499.00





http://www.thesolar.biz/Used_Inverters.htm

The above are stackable with a cable for 220 - same system I have - pure sine wave.
New looks like around $2600 if you shop. x 2 plus sync cable x2= 5200 plus cable and ship.

8 batteries would get you going ...I have 12 --at around $210 each or $1680 plus pick-up.  Good local place should have these. 12 @$2520

Solar panels  still around $5 per watt x 2000 watts = $10000

Regulator -if uniform panels MPPT i bet - around $600 and ill handle the wattage at 48 volts but till charge 24 cutting wire size needed.

Generator - as you wish -- 3000 watts will work if the inverter/charger is set right.  Price depends on what you want.

Wire can be entry cable with copper pipe smashed over it and drilled for ends  - probably $500 or more misc.  to get this starter setup going.

How'd we do?  You can always spend lots more.

Practicality is not really there for combating the grid pricing -- solar is nearly always going to have a bigger cost than the grid on a day to day basis.  That could change over time.

Glenn

[glenn kangiser]

 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 09:08:14 -0500
    From: bob
    Subject: re[8]: Off-grid electrical system.
    To: glenn-k
    Glenn, just got a chance to sit down and put a pencil to your numbers and check out a few things.
    One question is about the regulator. What is it for? I would think the Xantrex inverter would handle any regulation issue
    with the exception of the generator?
    I looked at the Home Depot website and found a Guardian LP gas 7,000 watt generator for $1,789 including shipping! I was
    surprised at the low price.
    So summarizing:
    Xantex (Trace) SW4024 invertors at $2600 each (new)                                                               $5,200
    Batteries 6V ea at $210 ea (new)                                                                                               $2,520
    Solar panels      $5 per watt or 2000W for                                                                                $10,000
    Regularor                  ??
    Generator 7,000 watt LP gas from Home Depot                                                                            $1,789
    Copper wire and misc                                                                                                                 $1,000
    Total                                                                                                             $20,500
    So, what does this really buy me? If I figure I have 6 hours per day of good sunlight (on average)
    and 2000watts of solar panels with battery storage of 1125 AH @24V I'm not sure I know what that
    translates in actual daily usage availability.
    I'm pretty sure the generator is to charge the batteries when no sun is available or even provide additional
    system capability when batteries run low? (that was a question)
    Guess my question is, will this take care of all my needs in hot summer or cold winter?
    Cost doesn't seem too bad and if the cost of solar panels should come down, that would make it really attractive.
    At $150 per month I would have a payback in 11 1/3 years. Not too bad actually.
     
    Regards,
    Bob

[glenn kangiser]

My reply,




RE: re[8]: Off-grid electrical system.‏
From:    glenn
Sent:    Mon 4/28/08 8:05 AM
To:    Bob


Good Morning, BoB,

The inverters only use the power, convert it to 120 or 240 and charge the batteries.

If the batteries are charged fully due to low usage, without the regulator, the Solar Panels will just continue to pump more and more power into the batteries causing them to boil out the acid, go way over voltage and be destroyed in short order.  The regulator will taper off the charge to fill the batteries to the top then disconnect the solar panels, just letting the voltage in the panels go high -- to nowhere which will not hurt them.

If all panels are the same the MPPT is best and provides up to 30% extra power.  If they differ then something such as the Trace PWM charger is as good as anything.  I get info from Morningstar http://www.morningstarcorp.com/ and they have both types along with a small MPPT regulator that could be good for mixed types using a couple of them to match types.   MPPT matches the current draw and voltage to the highest power out put of the particular type of panels so an odd one would through it off.  I haven't used Morningstar yet.

A wind generator is another story.  It cannot be disconnected or will go wild, possibly destroying itself from overspeed.  It must remain loaded even if the batteries are fully charged.  This causes you to need another regulator to dump the power to a diversion load such as a heater (I pump water with the excess) to burn off the excess power.  The Bergey has this and a bit of a solar panel regulator built into it.  All can work together if set properly.

The Xantrex inverters I have will also start and stop the generators.  I'm not sure about the new ones, but their manuals are available for download on their site.

  http://www.xantrex.com/support.asp

If you happen to weld or would like to, the Miller Welders have 10 KW power available 120/240 and are fairly quiet - maybe $3500 or so last time I checked.  That's what I use.

For all you spend, you likely will not have A/C -- maybe some swamp cooler.  You will still have to be energy conscious to stay within the available power, and will likely not be able to beat the cost of grid power.  You will have power when the grid is down.  If you don't use all the power pumping that I do then you would have a lot for other uses.  You will have to put heavy - heater type uses to propane or NG.  No electric cook stove, water heater, wall heaters , room heaters, a/c, heat pump, etc.  Clothes driers on propane and cooking is better anyway.  Demand water heaters especially with the dynamo driven pilot save much more energy and are fast.

The generator...yes, can add power as you are still using it.  The inverter will switch automatically to charge and switch power to the generator, even assisting it, when A/C is available ie: you start the generator or set it automatically to start.   I haven't started a generator for power in a couple months now.  I would say the generator can provide additional large load power independently from it, but limit through system loads to the capacity of the inverters.

Regulator - say $250 to $669  I kind of like Outback's inverters also as you can run high voltage with them lowering wire size then it will drop the voltage to the proper battery charging voltage.  I haven't used them but a friend has. http://www.outbackpower.com/MX60.htm

PDF prices
http://www.outbackpower.com/pdfs_general/Retail_Price_List.pdf

So -- to be happy with what you can do off grid, you may have to wean yourself from the heavy power use products.  In my opinion, total independence from the system is the best thing we can do for ourselves.


Glenn



   

[JRR]

It seems that steam electric plants have much less maintenance problems when they can be constantly loaded with little/no steam load variations.  I remembered this string the other day when I had a chance to visit this TVA pumped storage system:
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http://www.tva.gov/sites/raccoonmt.htm
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The reservoir and the associated 4 generators are all for keeping some large TVA steam plants constantly loaded.  So steam-made electricity is used to pump the water uphill ... and later this same water falls back downhill (and turns the same impellers) making electricity to augment the steam plants. 
Someone commented on the inefficiency of such a pump storage system ... true, you don't get all the energy back but it still may be a worthwhile method of energy storage for an off-grid wind or solar system.  TVA claims they get 70% energy recovery on their system.

[ScottA]

We have a setup like that on our lake. There is a second lake up on the hill to the east of here. They use extra power from the main dam to pump water up on the hill at night and release it during the day to make extra power.

http://pepei.pennnet.com/articles/article_display.cfm?article_id=255995

[JRR]

Interesting.  That's an older system ... looks like they get about 50% recovery.  I believe most of the energy is lost in a pumped storage system is lost on the hydraulic part of the system ... the size and length of water transfer pipes, water slippage around turbine blades, entrained air bubbles, etc, etc.