Single Mom building on an island. Foundation freak out!

missfixit79 · February 14, 2012, 09:01:09 PM

Hi all.

I am lurking here and trying to figure out what I've gotten myself into.

I decided that it would be great to build a little beach shack for me and my kids. So I went and bought a teeny tiny lot on a barrier island in the southeastern U.S. This was a crazy impulse. It was only affordable because it was tiny and there was a horrid shack on it that needed to be demolished. I just finished demolition last week. Now running a new sewer line.

My setbacks and building regulations are intense. I have a 20X27 building envelope and have to have parking up under the foundation (8' tall). FEMA regs control my foundation piers. I need probably 3' diameter footings at least 3' deep with rebar and who knows what else. The piers also require rebar that comes up through the bottom plate of the house all the way to the top plate.

I wanted to be my own contractor and do as much myself as possible. But I'm dealing with a chaotic building department and a local contractor who doesn't want to share his information. I have a limited budget and can't hire a contractor for the whole thing -- I had a tiny 16X24 house plan that I showed him, and he quoted me $100-150 per sq ft just to frame it!! I am so freaked out.

At this point I can't even figure out how many piers I need and how to situate them so I can park underneath.

I am planning a trip to the building department in person, to try to get the local specs. I feel like I'm going up against Goliath.

I searched this forum but haven't seen anyone design a foundation like this. Has anyone here built on an island? (a heavily regulated island/beach?)

alex trent · February 14, 2012, 09:37:35 PM

I am not sure if you had a specific question...but here are a few thoughts and you likely will not like them.

A small beach shack on a barrier island...nothing small about the project no matter how small the house and what you will likely find if you look at it with a neutral eye is that the regs and the building hassles have a justified purpose. Not to keep you out, but to keep your house up, you alive and protect the environment. All sounds like a big pain and it is but that is the way it is so if you are going to stay get used to it.

You already seem to be in confrontation with a builder and the regulatory people. Small island, same people will be there when you get done...if you ever do.

This will cost you a lot of money (and aggravation) nand I would hazard a guess that you will not be able to do it without a lot of outside and very expensive help.

February 14, 2012, 10:00:14 PM

Pile foundations like that require an engineer as a rule. The exception could come from being able to use a previously engineered design for the location... using for a nominal fee. Maybe the nice people at the building dept can advise, but probably not as their job is to accept or reject plans, not supply design work.

G/L

missfixit79 · February 14, 2012, 11:08:00 PM

QuoteThe exception could come from being able to use a previously engineered design for the location... using for a nominal fee.

This is what I suspect, since the contractor told me my plans would be fine except that I would need to pay his draftsman $2000 to make sure they "met local codes". Which would be fine, except that I'm an engineer and I do drafting for a living (although I'm not an expert in residential building - this is new to me), and I told him I could do my own drafting if I could just get a copy of the local specs. He wouldn't explain to me what he meant by "drafting to meet local codes".

I'm not in confrontation with anyone. I am determined to make this happen. It just feels like a merry go round right now.

alex trent · February 15, 2012, 06:27:51 AM

It will be a merry go round for a bit. Then, as you get a few things figured out and hopefully meet a person or two who helps, it straightens out. I am not sure patience is a virtue, but it is needed in doing what you are doing. At least been that way for me building my place.

Good luck. I guess I misread exasperation for confrontation. Then again, a bit of confrontation ay the right time can work too.

February 15, 2012, 09:44:05 AM

To preface, I have never built a beach house. Only a few on here may have some experience with that.

I will be happy to lend whatever support I can.

First, what state is this in? This will help with people being able to help you with any building codes that may be specific to your state, which may go a long way towards local approval.

Does it have to be piers?
I have seen beach houses built on PT piers or just 8' tall reinforced concrete walls depending upon the beach.

Squirl · February 15, 2012, 10:18:00 AM

I am of the general belief that laws must promulgated to be administered. A call to the enforcement wing of the law, in this case the code enforcement department, should tell you where to find the laws. It will be up to you to learn them. Knowledge is power and money. The builder is protecting his worth.

burr · February 15, 2012, 10:59:49 AM

So, how much $$ is a teenytiny lot on a barrier island in the southeastern US ? just wondering

Until now, I have been a daily lurker with no dawg in the fight. I think that's fixin to change and maybe I'll be a 'show & tell' fore long.

Squirl · February 15, 2012, 11:21:00 AM

I have been interested in some of these design requirements for a few years even though I will probably never need them. I did read of running bolts from the foundation through the framing of the house to the roof before. It was in this house.

Almost all of the articles and the home owners admit that almost all of their neighbors houses were built before building codes. The owners said they put this one 16" above where the codes required it. Also from the articles I found out their local jurisdiction required 130 mph wind framing.

I assume you have some similar requirements. You can find many of the guides to high wind and seismic framing at the AWC website. Many are even free.
http://www.awc.org/publications/download.html
http://www.awc.org/pdf/WFCM_130-B-Guide.pdf
http://www.awc.org/pdf/2008WindSeismic.pdf

That should help with the basic framing.

February 15, 2012, 11:52:37 AM

FEMA has many of their publications and guides available. Do you know which one you need to comply with?

http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?fromSearch=fromsearch&id=1853

I hope someone with some experience in this area can give you better direction.

rick91351 · February 15, 2012, 11:59:17 AM

Quote from: Squirl on February 15, 2012, 10:18:00 AM
I am of the general belief that laws must promulgated to be administered. A call to the enforcement wing of the law, in this case the code enforcement department, should tell you where to find the laws. It will be up to you to learn them. Knowledge is power and money. The builder is protecting his worth.

Wow do I ever agree with Squirl. After some of the rodeo I have been through with contractors this last month or so.

Best advise.........................call the enforcement wing of the law. (All this code has to be codified some where. It needs to be public.)
Best truth nugget...............The builder is protecting his worth. (Some are great and worth their salt. Others want to make it all secret mumbo jumbo. This building stuff is way above anyone's head.)

UK4X4 · February 15, 2012, 12:55:03 PM

There is some awsome information in those Fema files

down to design constraints - advise ref conditions depths and sizes of piles etc etc

3ft deep in sand does not sound deep enough for me - in a good wind arround a pole in sand you can easily get 12-24" of hole appear.

In the winter in the UK we'd have sand pile up 12 ft deep on the sea wall and then onto the patio each year it had to be dug back down by backhoe

The fema advise and dwgs is based on a core building size - if you add size you add another core to suit

The photo's of oops failure and survived show quite clearly what works and what does not.

rather than approaching a general contractor - try first with a local pile company with rough dwgs and sizes of what you want to build

they will have done it before and often their quote will answer a lot of your questions

I am having to do piles on my mountain plot- in my case helicals

I will be getting the pilling quoted- then the concrete and then the framing.

My quote for the piles includes an "engineering fee" where the design form the pile company is dwn and signed off by an engineer - which just gets submitted to county, its a local pile company and a local engineer so for them its basicly a copy paste and adjust for size.

I intend contracting or DIY my build in stages, as money becomes avaialble--ie being my own general contractor- it will take longer - but I feel I'll have more control over what gets done and how- and save a 30K contractors charge.

research -research research is the game on a self build- I'm on design 5 right now - hopefully my last one !

each design meant a diferent approach - spending tme on the property made me realise sun direction and building orientation is key in the winter for me- that changed the design yet again to get more solar gain in the winter

Even when talking to the pile people - if you have done your homework and you know what you want and are able to explain in their terms ref the fema doc's you will come across as an educated client and probably get a better service from them.

rtaher than joe schmoo and a check book

Squirl · February 15, 2012, 01:10:58 PM

UK4x4, I was just thinking about your while reading the FEMA 550 design book. It has dozens of different foundation design drawings for deep foundations. This might help you with your place out west. There is more detailed information there than in many books I have read. Detailed spacing and sizing drawings. It even lists other publications on how to design pile driven foundations.

As you read through the different parameters the depth is dependent on the coastal zone, the wind speed, the expected storm surge, the thickness of the concrete footing.

What is amazing is that if it is a very short stem wall with no weight, in some zones you may need a 40" thick footing!

missfixit79 · February 15, 2012, 01:32:25 PM

Quote from: Squirl on February 15, 2012, 09:44:05 AM
First, what state is this in? Does it have to be piers?
I have seen beach houses built on PT piers or just 8' tall reinforced concrete walls depending upon the beach.

I am afraid to give away the location so let's just say Hilton Head. Yes I think it needs to be piers.

[/quote]

Quote from: burr on February 15, 2012, 10:59:49 AM
So, how much $$ is a teenytiny lot on a barrier island in the southeastern US ? just wondering

The lot was the cheapest thing on the island, not even beachfront or anything. It was a little over $60k. Ouch. So I don't have a ton of money to spend on a builder.

Quote from: Squirl on February 15, 2012, 10:18:00 AM
I am of the general belief that laws must promulgated to be administered. A call to the enforcement wing of the law, in this case the code enforcement department, should tell you where to find the laws. It will be up to you to learn them. Knowledge is power and money. The builder is protecting his worth.

Yes. This is what I'm trying to figure out now. The problem with this builder is that he said to me initially "I will do as little or as much as you want". But as soon as I went and got a quote from a plumber for my sewer line, the contractor was mad and told me "Well I guess you don't need me then". I was like wth? I *did* think I wanted to hire a builder to get the foundation and framing up, but now I'm starting to think to heck with this, I'll be my own contractor

Plus the scare tactics. You know the whole "I don't want to scare you but if you go outside my local circle then XYZ might happen and it will be awful"

So I have been super stressed out and I'm thinking I need to back away and try to be my own contractor. Nerve wracking. It is a tight little group of people and if you piss off one, then what?

February 15, 2012, 02:16:35 PM

"Plus the scare tactics. You know the whole "I don't want to scare you but if you go outside my local circle then XYZ might happen and it will be awful"

I would stop right there with that contractor-

start with finding a local pile guy- he'll recomend or even do the engineering
then see who he recomends for the cement -grade beam if required if he does not do that and work your way up from there.

by working out each stage and doing the legwork yourself you save the contractors charges

My first design timber quote was 23k - foundation 20K - the general contractor wanted 170k for the job..............hence
I'll be doing the general part myself and contracting out each stage as and when required

Squirl I'll shortly be posting my foundation design so I won't thread steal other than to say the pile guy was surprised when I questioned his expert opinion....

missfixit79 · February 15, 2012, 04:58:26 PM

Quote from: UK4X4 on February 15, 2012, 02:16:35 PM
"Plus the scare tactics. You know the whole "I don't want to scare you but if you go outside my local circle then XYZ might happen and it will be awful"

I would stop right there with that contractor-

start with finding a local pile guy- he'll recomend or even do the engineering
then see who he recomends for the cement -grade beam if required if he does not do that and work your way up from there.

by working out each stage and doing the legwork yourself you save the contractors charges

My first design timber quote was 23k - foundation 20K - the general contractor wanted 170k for the job..............hence
I'll be doing the general part myself and contracting out each stage as and when required

Ok. I think I am going to take that advice. Since this is my first time building on my own I was really intimidated by the contractor. Every conversation I came away feeling so scared and upset. He doesn't want me to know what exactly I'm paying for or what needs to be done. He doesn't even want to tell me how much things will cost - he told me "You need to tell me what your budget is first".

I was convinced that this project is way too hard for me. After I spend time here (especially reading about Alex's cabin in Nicaragua!) I feel like I could do this if I just had the specs and time to study!!

Redoverfarm · February 15, 2012, 06:28:53 PM

Contractors are not GOD. It is your house and you should feel that you are in control. If you have a general layout of the structure then have him (or others) to give you quotes for exactly that taking into consideration the special construction that needs to be done. In my mind the only reason he needs your budget is so that he can adjust the cost to fall close to your top figure. If he is reluctant then let it be known that he is not the only person in the area that " knows how to swing a hammer". If you are close to the area you described I am sure there are many qualified contractors that will at least estimate your construction.

If you are going to go it alone it will be up to you to dig up the spec's on what is required. I can understand a contractor unwillingness to devote the time required to "build it on paper". As others have recommended to have them (piles) professionally installed. They should be willing to accomidate you with a estimate for that portion as they will expect to get the job or at least given the oppurtunity to bid. I am not sure that the 3' depth sounds correct. But a contractor doing that particular type of foundation work can probably advise you better.