getting set to build

rick91351 · January 31, 2012, 09:42:35 AM

My gut feeling is all the posturing is pretty well done. I really doubt you will have any trouble.

As you might assume longevity in places like that. Tis normal to sort of take over things that are not being used whether it be right or wrong. Very well might turn into a good neighbor.

altaoaks · January 31, 2012, 12:48:37 PM

Thank you for that Rick, I am sure hoping your right! Keep your friends close, and keep your enemies closer! He does have a Bobcat! I've been looking at all the angles as to why butter would melt in their mouths yesterday, I'm sure they have an angle but I don't know it! But at least its a place where we can build forward.

February 14, 2012, 10:00:56 PM

Hi again---your original post said you were going to do it all except the plumbing and electrical---I was encouraging you to do that yourselves, too!

altaoaks · February 07, 2013, 11:40:59 PM

Hi everybody, sorry for the disappearing act. We have been pretty occupied, my son was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer, so we have been in the fight of our lives. Things are looking up though. He's still getting chemo, but we are feeling like we will be successful.

So I am going to put the pump on my well in May, as soon as weather permits! Advise please!!!

The well is 165' deep. static water level is 40' (i don't have a clue what static water level means, but!) it produces 60 GPM (that i do understand!) Its a 6"casing. How deep should the pump go? Is 100' sufficient? also, any suggestions on which brand pump to go with? I think I know I want a stainless steel pump, but thats just from my feeble attempt at research.

I am doing a solar pumping system, I do intend to have a holding tank, and i want enough water to cover a future home, a garden, and sprinklers in case of forest fire. (I, again, dont have a clue how much water that would be!)

I would greatly appreciate any advice you guys can give me. Thanks in advance. Jacque

Redoverfarm · February 08, 2013, 07:03:52 AM

Quote from: altaoaks on February 07, 2013, 11:40:59 PM
Hi everybody, sorry for the disappearing act. We have been pretty occupied, my son was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer, so we have been in the fight of our lives. Things are looking up though. He's still getting chemo, but we are feeling like we will be successful.

So I am going to put the pump on my well in May, as soon as weather permits! Advise please!!!

The well is 165' deep. static water level is 40' (i don't have a clue what static water level means, but!) it produces 60 GPM (that i do understand!) Its a 6"casing. How deep should the pump go? Is 100' sufficient? also, any suggestions on which brand pump to go with? I think I know I want a stainless steel pump, but thats just from my feeble attempt at research.

I am doing a solar pumping system, I do intend to have a holding tank, and i want enough water to cover a future home, a garden, and sprinklers in case of forest fire. (I, again, dont have a clue how much water that would be!)

I would greatly appreciate any advice you guys can give me. Thanks in advance. Jacque

Sorry to here of your sons problems. Our own can be handled but when it involves are children that is different. Glad things are looking promising.

In regards to your well the static level is the level that the water is resting at. The deeper you can go with your pump the better. I don't know the exact formula but it roughly the water in the standing pipe has about 1.469 gal per foot. I would set the pump at a depth of 155' which is 10' off the bottom of the hole. That will give you more water storage. The reason for elevating it is so the pump will not pick up sediment at the bottom which could damage the pump.

The kind and model of the pump will be dependent on the power you have available, distance of supply line, depth of pump and static level. Being that it is solar it would have to be sized to match that. There are several on this site more knowledgeable in that regard but here is a company that may be able to size or recommend. http://www.backwoodssolar.com/

Dependent on how you set it up with all the factors involved the storage tank can be controlled by a float switch but you will probably need a pressure tank which has to be factored into your planning.

February 08, 2013, 08:37:32 AM

Sorry to read about your son's condition. Glad to read things are looking up.

Great news on the well! I would also do about as suggested. Your static level could drop with all the drought and as more wells are drilled. Having all that water below the pump serves no purpose at 100 ft. At 160 ft or so lots and lots of water for the pump to pump.

hpinson · February 08, 2013, 11:00:33 AM

One thing I did prior to installing the pump was to measure my static water level for a year . It was a dry year so I was able to observe about a ten foot fluctuation between early spring and late fall.

60 gallons per minute with a six inch casing is an amazing well. I think it very unlikely such a well would go dry anytime soon, or that you would overpump unless you had a super (expensive) high capacity pump, but to be safe you could place the pump as deep as you can, ten feet from the bottom of the well if possible. The downside is the deeper you go, the more energy you expend doing the work of pumping, and the more copper you need (length / gauge) to provide AC or DC power to the pump. I would think 100 - 150 feet below low static should be fine though with that sort of flow, unless you have huge water demands.

altaoaks · February 08, 2013, 11:39:17 AM

Hey Rick, Hpinson, and Redoverfarm, Thank you! My son said I would get my questions answered at my great cabin site!

Redover, I went to the Backwoodssolar site, I forgot all about them! I had not visited them, I just wasn't at that point, but with everything that has occured over the last year my brain just tossed all the knowledge I had gathered from you guys for my build. I guess you can say I sorta "re-tooled" my mind. The build went to the back instead of the front, and we have been diong things like nutritional support, whole and natural eating, and foods that "feed cancer" as opposed to foods that "starve cancer" but we are at a point where we can do both now. That site is a really great resource. Thank you for reminding me to check there.

hpinson, good advice! I am hoping, hoping...that we really have an abundance of water. just behind us and over the other side of our little world is a place called Crystal Springs. Big trucks make runs all night long hauling water to one of those bottled water companies in Sacramento. One worry is that they will eventually lower the water levels, and that could affect us. I feel very blessed at this point not to have water issues. A piece of land very close to us only got 4GPM, i don't know how deep their well is. of course, they have the Little Bear River (more of a stream) running across the corner of their land, they could get grey water for the site there also.

Again, you guys, your help and advice is always soooo appreciated! My little piece of land is finally almost paid off. I owe a whopping 3 grand, and counting down. That $1000 land payment is going directly into the pump and a well house first with solar for pumping and minimum usage. Next I guess is some fencing, an outhouse, and a 10 X 12 "shed" on skids. By the end of this summer I plan on being to enjoy that land! I guess then I will need to decide if being a good egg and paying that whopping building permit is on the table, or finding a way of building without permits is an option?? I wouldn't be anywhere without the help of this site. THANK YOU! Jacque

pocono_couple · February 08, 2013, 01:48:30 PM

Just a thought to add.. We put a hand pump on our well in addition to the normal set up we have a 6 in casing as well. We bought the pump from bison pumps in Maine. It is stainless steel, and it is a deep well hand pump. It is nice to know that we have access to water when the electricity cuts out.. Or, in your case, when the batteries might be low. They are not cheap, but, in my estimation, very well worth the expense. If we ever sell the house.. The pump goes with me!

Jt

February 08, 2013, 06:52:56 PM

I would put the pump closer to the bottom

altaoaks · February 08, 2013, 11:30:25 PM

Pocono, if I understand what you are saying, you put on a regular pumping system, but also a secondary hand pump? I imagine the hand pump is pretty cool looking as well as functional. But if i'm putting in a holding tank, would that be necessary? We were hoping to have some water storage for emergencies. Also, if the hand pump is a positive in our situation, is it something that could be added at a later date?

We are going to have a lot on our plate to accomplish the pump and solar to run it, plus a well house and storage shed, an outhouse, and fencing the perimeter of 2 1/2 acres, and all with cash in hand before the snow hits again. I'm thinking if we can get that done, we can enjoy the property for some days at a time and figure out the rest of our plans. I guess i'm looking at must haves first, then adding in the it would be greats.

Nysono, so how close are you saying? Actually, how close to the bottom would be too close? At what point would it start picking up sediment? With a 165' well, would 160' be an acceptable depth to put the pump?

Thanks to all again, I wish I had more experience in this area. Sure am glad to get imput from all of you! Jacque

Bob S. · February 09, 2013, 01:43:32 AM

This thread raised a question in my mind. If the water level is 60' and the pump is at 160' would the pump have to lift the water 160' or just the 60'?

Bob

pocono_couple · February 09, 2013, 07:54:24 AM

"....before the snow hits again." hmm, if i understand correctly, you are in an area that gets snow and freezing temps.. a storage tank is a great idea.. how will you keep it from freezing? it sounds like you have a lot of projects in mind!

yes the hand pump fits directly on top of the well. a hole needs to be drilled into the side of the casing for the wires to feed the pump ( normally, they go through the well cap) i had the hand pump on the well initially.. when the guys came to install the regular pump, we had to take out the hand pump so that the new pump would fit down the casing.. in the process, one of them knocked off the pitless adaptor which ended up at the bottom of the well. we were lucky that he had an appropriate replacement with him. he then wanted to use the vent on the hand pump to run the wires down the well. i told him that the vent needed to be open to function properly.. while they were on break, i called bison pumps , and they assured me that we should not use that hole and that a hole needed to be drilled through the casing. i relayed that information to the pump guys and they suddenly found a fitting that would work and , somewhat reluctantly, drilled the hole.. all is well now! ( pun intended

)

i know a fellow in NH who is a dowser, and i asked him about getting people to drill a well on some property that we had in maine. he warned me about being 100 feet from the septic system, and he said.. " when they pull up , they will look for the easiest place to set up the truck.. make sure that you get them to drill where you want the well" sure enough... they pulled up and said.. this looks like a good place.. ( right in front of the house with the septic system about 50 feet away..) and i said.. do you see that stake in the field out there? that is where i would like the well to be.

I am one who would generally defer to the fellow who is in business and who "obviously" knows what he is doing, but i learned that it is good to do a lot of research.. gets lots of opinions.. and then make your expectations very clear when hiring someone to help out with your house.. it sounds like you are in the research phase! good for you!

btw you have plenty of water in your well.. don't go too close to the bottom with the pump.. i am not an expert by any means, but 10 feet sounds as close as i would want to get..

bob.. the answer to your question is 160 feet... that is where the pump is... at the end of a pipe that is 160 feet long.. so the water travels from the pump.. through the entire 160 feet of pipe and then beyond that to your house which may have some additional elevation... jt

Don_P · February 09, 2013, 09:06:26 AM

At 60 gpm and a 60' static level the original driller had a boat payment if he went to 160'. Glenn is our pro on wells, you might want to pm him if he doesn't see this. I'd go ahead and use the storage depth by setting up 10' or so off the bottom. He have 30 gpm and occasionally have pulled a bit of sediment if irrigating heavily. I assume that is when we draw the static level low enough to drain a fresh gallery and wash out some mud. Our pump is a 220volt Jacuzzi "sand -eater" model and has been doing well. The drillers set up on my first choice and drilled 400' through solid granite, not a single seam in that part of the mountain. I asked them where they thought they might hit water and they chose a point out off the main body of the hill, they hit good water within 100' and then we had to pipe it 350' uphill to the house. All of that rise plus the frictional loss is the head the pump is working against. For firefighting sprinklers I'd be more tempted to put a large capacity electric pump and generator in the wellhouse for emergencies... another not "must have" but I doubt a solar setup will have the flow needed to supply a sprinkler head for long. Depending on lot size, I've had the septic guys come onto a site and begin digging, I asked about well clearance and they pointed to the well on our lot and said they were fine. I then pointed to the neighbors well... ooops!

February 09, 2013, 09:41:16 AM

Bob S.

Static Head: "Static head is the distance that the water is to be lifted."

The lift to the pump head is from the static head, i.e 60 feet. Water finds that level in your intake pipe. Also there may be some distance the pump needs to move water above the well head to storage or such, and that needs to be added to the total lift.

For instance I have a well that is 310 feet deep and my static head is -190' and the intake is at ~-300'. The pump pushes water up (or in my case pulls as I have a simplepump) from the -60 foot level. I have a water storage tank a few feet above and that height needs to be added, in this case about 10 feet.

The static head may vary with seasonal fluctuations or aquifer drawdown. As the static head falls your pump has to do more work, and vice versa. That is a big gotcha if the flow of the well is less than the draw of the pump.

Some of the new Grundfos solar pumps can pump an amazing amount of water a minute. Might be worth a look but wow are they expensive!

pocono_couple · February 09, 2013, 10:07:24 AM

bob.. looks like your intuition is better than mine! makes sense that the water inside the pipe will also reach a static level of 60 feet.. thanks for the clarification hpinson... and thanks for the point on the solar pumps.. i was wondering how much a pump would draw and if the solar option would be adequate.. jt

pocono_couple · February 09, 2013, 12:09:30 PM

but... what about the water that starts the journey from the bottom of the pipe

flyingvan · February 10, 2013, 11:16:17 AM

Static head doesn't start from the bottom of the pipe, but is measured from the water level surrounding the pipe--regardless of how deep that pipe extends into water. The water around the pipe will be pushing down and creating pressure to that water at the bottom of the pipe, to (roughly) .43 psi per foot.

altaoaks · February 10, 2013, 01:51:52 PM

Ok, so i am still confused obviously. first, is static head and static level the same thing? sorry to seem dense, but pumps are way out of my fields of knowledge.

also, i thought i was understanding that static level was how far from the top (or well cap) the resting water level is, did i jump to a conclusion with that? i guess i still need some schooling please folks!

also, the static water level is 40', not 60'. i dont know if that makes a difference or not.

pocono_couple, yes i do have snow and freezing temps at the property. i'm below the worst of it, the land is at 4000'. in the seirras the serious snow levels are around the 5000' elevation, but we get our fair share. this year has been extreem. some years, not so much. one thing i have learned from all of you folks is to look at the worst and prepare for that. our dirt road in is also a good 3/4 of a mile from the main road and it gets pretty bad.

i know the other 2 neighbors say its so rough sometimes that its snowmobile only in and out, but only for short periods. freezing is a factor. now that ive read the responses maybe i should burry a holding tank as opposed to an above ground tank. i would loose the gravity feed because i don't have a good area above the home site, but in an emergency i would have water with that. If i do a gravity feed above ground tank, what would be the choices in preventing it from freezing?

Another point you brought up is the distance from the well to the septic site. the permited septic is closer than i would like to the well cap. i haven't measured the actual distince but it has been on my mind. i remember at my Aunt's ranch in Mc Allister, NM her well being too close to the septic, and they had to shut down the well years later. we were all drinking that water for years. the house and well were done in the 1940's. since you have voiced something that i have had on my mind, i need to look carefully at that.

i am looking at another area on the property for the homesite, but i will need a new perc test and permit. at least it would be much further from the well!

also, yes! i am pushing it, but i've been wanting to get these projects done since buying the property. the huge payment with a 3 year payoff has kicked my rear, now that i'm rolling up on the end of that i plan on doing as much as i can afford to do, then regroup over the winter. i am prepared to fall short of my goals, but it won't be for the lack of trying!

Don_P, yes! that sounds right. the well was there when i bought the property, so i don't know the reasoning. but after the fact, i'm not unhappy. sounds like someone opted to go extra deep! if i had to pay for it, that would be a different cow to milk!

question: im starting out off grid. the pump set-up will be solar. can that be converted to a grid-tied setup should i choose to do that, or would i need a different pump then? the system im looking at is solar only.

flyingvan, hpinson, don_p, pocono_couple, bob s, nysono, and all the folks at country plans, my gratitude!

MountainDon · February 10, 2013, 01:58:26 PM

Static Head

February 11, 2013, 12:17:08 PM

Thank you for the diagram Mountain Don, seeing that clarified alot! That is a great way to educate someone like me who doesnt know much about water pumping, except you turn on the pipe, and you get water! much appreciated!

Dry Creeker · September 12, 2014, 01:02:55 PM

Dear Alta Oaks,

I am also in Placer County (Auburn) and have some questions for you. Could you contact me, please?