Face Mount Hangers

[Clear Creek]

First off I would like to thank everyone on this forum for all the great ideas, pictures and the "oh that's how you did it". I bought the 1 ½ story plans and plan to use concrete piers with the Bigfoot system. 20X40. 3 beams to stiffen the floor and face mount hangers for the floor joists. Now for my questions:
1-   Is there any structural advantage to putting the floor joists on top the beams verses using face mount hangers
2-   On the outer beams, mounting them to the top outside edge of the pier, rather than center to allow for siding overhang
I do like the idea of mounting the brackets to the beam and setting/resting them in the concrete. I am sure I will have more questions after I finish digging all the holes.
Bob

[Redoverfarm]

Clear Creek 

Not real sure of your plans but in answering your post as I understand it.

(1) to make your subfloor a single unit without seperation of the floor joist. The more joints are put into something the more chance for movement and strength lessens. With (3) beams your joist would be in 2 pieces
(2) More stability in the center. Your weight is distributed to the center of your pier.  Less chance of failure in the pier if it would every occur.  You can always attach a scab to attach siding.  It does not have to be that structurally sound as the only thing it will hold is siding.  Chances are that you will have to put something down low for the lower edge of the siding so a box configeration would work well with an occassional verticle support.

Just my $.02 worth. Others may differ or ditto.

[MountainDon]

  Clear Creek.

Bigfoots (Bigfeet?) with sonotubes makes a good foundation.

I've not seen the 1&1/2 story plans so I don't know if John gives options on using hanging joists or laying the joists on top of the beams.

First however, I'll say this... you end up spending more money for all of Mr. Simpson's hangers when you go that route instead of laying them on top. And while Simpson does have some invaluable products, sometimes it's not necessary to use them. Just my opinion understand?

If you're trying to reduce the overall height of the structure then hanging the joists will achieve that by the depth of the joists. Will it be noticeable?  I dunno.

How high off the ground do you intend to place the beams?

Lastly, you stated

I do like the idea of mounting the brackets to the beam and setting/resting them in the concrete

. Care to expand on that thought?  Maybe it'll help me/others see something we might not be considering.

[glenn kangiser]

Seems you are talking about using hangers to put the joists between the beams, and as I recall PEG said they are much more squeeky that way and not as solid.

[NM_Shooter]

I've also been trying to determine if I want to place joists on top of beams or hang them too. 

Seems to me that you get a much stronger structure in terms of uplift if you use piers, attach your beams directly to the piers (no posts), and hang your joists.  This way, you nail your baseplate directly through the floorboards into the beams, and tie the whole thing together with the skin of the sheathing.

For placing joists on top of beams, I guess you could not cantilever your joists over your beams, and accomplish the same thing.  But then you can't tie it all together on the outside using a single piece of 9' OSB. 

I suspect that I am going to hang the joists.  Who knows.  I change plans on a regular basis and am looking forward to getting started in order to lock down a path.

[Jackson Landers]

I was looking at where my beams stick out 5 feet past the actual walls (I'm using them to support a porch later) and got to thinking about that same thing. I placed my joists on top of the beams since I didn't feel like paying for the hangers. It occurred to me that a really easy way to make a 'sunken' room that is a single step down from the rest of the building would be to change your joist layout right there and put the joists between the beams for that room.

The temptation to keep going and add a little 5'x10' sunken living room rather than a porch was, at that point, enormous.  If I didn't have to worry about keeping the inside living area under 200 square feet then I'd probably have done it.

Am I right that in building joists for a loft over a standard platform-framed lower story, you basically have to use steel joist hangers between the joists and the rims (or joist headers or whatever you want to call them)?  Or can you skip the hangers and face-nail the rim joists into the the joist ends, since the rim will be a nominal 2x sitting on end on top of the nominal 2x4 top plate?  That is at least somewhat of a ledge for the joist ends to be sitting on.

I'm starting on those loft joists this weekend (weather permitting) so I suppose I ought to figure out some idea of what I'm doing by then...

[Clear Creek]

I understand the extra cost in using hangers, and all comments and opinions are welcome.
As for putting the beams to the outside top edge of the piers (except the center beam) I am trying to find the reference. I thought it was in a book by Monte Burch and it had to do with keeping the piers from wanting to shift over time. By using hangers it also helps tie all the piers together. As far as using 3 beams, the idea was to reduce/eliminate bounce.

[MountainDon]

Am I right that in building joists for a loft over a standard platform-framed lower story, you basically have to use steel joist hangers between the joists and the rims (or joist headers or whatever you want to call them)?  Or can you skip the hangers and face-nail the rim joists into the the joist ends, since the rim will be a nominal 2x sitting on end on top of the nominal 2x4 top plate?  That is at least somewhat of a ledge for the joist ends to be sitting on.

You don't say but is this a single story cabin?

If it's a single story all you need is to have the ceiling joists sit on top of the top wall plate. Toe nail them in to the plate. The rafters would also sit on the top plate, adjacent to the joist, toe nailed to top plate. The rafter and joist would be face nailed to each other, as illustrated below. That would be the usual method. H1 or H2.5 Simpsons could be added as desired/needed.



Drawing from Wagner's House Framing, available through this link...
http://www.countryplans.com/books.html
It's at the top of the list and an excellent reference.

[MountainDon]

I've also been trying to determine if I want to place joists on top of beams or hang them too. 

To hang or not to hang?? 

All I can say at this point is that for some reason, most of the cabin plans/builds I've looked over have the joists sitting on top of the beams. Most, but not all.     That assortment ranges from a small 10x18 to the large (full 2 story height) 20 foot wide X 34+ long, and all on post & beam. So I figured it was a good method.

[NM_Shooter]

It looks like a ton of folks do this, and I have considered it myself. 

I seem to worry about too much stuff.  I envision the floor joists racking sideways under load.  Are you going to cross brace underneath, or just count on the rim joist to provide stability?

How do you splice the rim joist on the joist ends to ensure good integrity?  Use two layers of rim joist?  Or just bevel cut the ends, nail them together over a joist and be done with it?

Pictures.  I need pictures.  Simple pictures.  Easy words. 

-f-

[MountainDon]

I haven't decided what type of bridging I'm going to use. I'm going to have one row down the center. It'll either be (a) solid blocking, staggered for ease of nailing, or (b) Simpson bridging as illustrated below... Here I face my dislike of the cost of the Simpson vs the sheer convenience. I could probably have all the Simpson bridging in place in less time than it would take to cut the 2x10's accurately.   

As for the rim joists they'll be much like this illustration... (each joist toe nailed to the beams with probably 4 nails. Plus cross bracing from posts to joists, nailed, maybe even lag screwed.

I've seen that corner as shown or reversed (lengths like the inside joists). Then apply the subfloor sheathing. Build on top.

I would not even consider bevel cutting the corners, this is a foundation, not furniture. 

My beams will be installed inboard from the sides. This is fine for a small single story or small single story with loft. It does stiffen up the floor joists some.

Another positive point for doing the cantilever joist is that if I'm a little off on getting the two beams exactly parallel is that can be corrected when building the floor framing. I should be able to get within 1/8 inch of perfect square.

[NM_Shooter]

Hi Don thanks.  Any idea what the Simpson cross braces cost each?  How many do you need?  I would think that maybe two locations on the joist pair maybe?

I didn't mean to bevel cut the corners, but rather where the rim joists over lap at the midway point. 

-f-

[John Raabe]

Here are the reasons I've designed the floor joists to sit on top of the beams.
• The box framed floor sitting on top of the beam will be fully insulated. The beams in the floor system will be about an R-8 rather than the R-25 to 30 of the joist system.
• Beams will shrink and perhaps twist differently than the joists. If the floor frame sits on top of the beams the whole floor diaphragm will take up any changes not just at the wall line. Ditto for any differential settlement at the posts or piers.
• Setting the floor system on top of the beams gets the joists further above the ground leaving more room to service the wiring and plumbing and less chance of moisture problems in the floor system.
• If you are bringing down a waste plumbing line or an electrical conduit line in a wall siting directly on top of a beam you will have a problem making the bend without destroying the beam.

[MountainDon]

Thanks John, I knew there had to be some good reasons. 

Price? Not sure    I've seen them someplace around here...

On a 16 ft joist you only need a pair criss-crossed in the center of the joists.


My misinterpretation on the bevel      
A simple butt joint placed over the end of a joist is all that's required, the nails angled into the joist.

Although when you consider that a ridge board splice is done with a scarf joint it makes you wonder.    Maybe that's different because a rafter is nailed onto it from both sides.

I'm planning on using a simple butt splice.

[NM_Shooter]

LTB20 = $0.24 ea!

http://www.homeandbeyond.com/prod-0164173.html

[MountainDon]

Cheaper then I even thought possible 

Try and buy wood for that. Cheaper enough to go hog wild and put them at 1/3 and 2/3 if one was a real worrier.