Galvanized Nails

[Squirl]

So I was doing research to check for the nails I'm going to need to buy for the house.  I found that 8d (2.5") (sheathing) and 16d (3.5")(framing) can be used for almost all nailing applications.  To get the best return, I'm going to buy each in a 50 lb bulk.  From the nailing thread, most of the consensus is ring shank is better than smooth shank.  All ring shank nails in bulk are hot dipped galvanized.  They are listed for decks and PT wood. The price difference is negligible to me.  $30 extra per nail type is not much compared to the entire build.  Is there any harm in using galvanized nails for any applications?

Sort of along those lines.  In the years I have seen people frame, they used the large head roofing nails on sheathing?  I saw nothing in the code or guidelines about the type of head needed.  Does it matter if I used a common head nail instead of the roofing nails on sheathing?

[Alan Gage]

Should be no need for large diameter heads for sheathing. I haven't seen a requirement for it in normal construction anyway. I don't believe clipped nail heads are allowed with pneumatic nailers but full heads are, and I believe they have a smaller head than regular box nails (I assume you're hand nailing?).

You might want to get some 10D (3") nails. Nice for face nailing 2x lumber when you don't want the tip of the nail to penetrate. 6D is nice when dealing with 1/2" plywood for other than sheathing applications.

Galvanized nails will have better holding power and will be tougher if you have to deconstruct something (something I've had to do more than once on my build).

Alan

[MountainDon]

For hand nailing there's electroplated galvanized and there's hot dipped galvanized. Electroplated nails are smooth and shiny and hold no better than a common nail or box nail. The hot dipped galvanized are the rough surfaced ones that do hold better. Hot dipped are also the ones that are okay with PT woods.

I can't think of any downside to using galvanized for everything as long as cost is not a factor. I have virtually all galvanized nails for my air nailers as a box lasts a while and it seems more cost effective for a small user who wants galvies some of the time, to stock only them.

Some air gun nails are electroplated and approved for PT woods. Bostitch has them, maybe others.

You can use 8D and 16D nails for all the framing and structural panels. For face nailing one 2x to another 3 1/2" long nails can sometimes be easily clinched over. For some applications that provides additional joint strength.  8D deformed shank can also be used in place of 10D in some applications.

[MountainDon]

Large head nails for sheathing....  Do you know if they were hand nailed or machine nailed?

When nailing sheathing one thing that will earn a red tag from an inspector is over driving the heads when using a machine (air) nailer. Perhaps a roofing nailer was used where you've seen the large heads? As long as the nail length and shank diameter are correct for the purpose that should work fine.

My nailer is an older model and to prevent over driving nails in structural panels I set the air pressure lower and finish off most of the nails with a hammer.

[Squirl]

No, I only hand nail.

Most people I have seen work were on small jobs, hand nailing.  The nails I was referring to were the electroplated galvanized roofing nails.  They have those large flat heads.  No inspectors were involved.  There is one involved on my house.

Much against the insistence of others, I prefer to hand nail.  I found that the majority of the time I spend on the job is measuring, setting up, re-measuring, cutting, and re-measuring.  I don't spend a lot of time nailing, and the setup of hauling the generator, compressor, and nailer down the mountain, setting it all up, and starting every time I run out of air would be more aggravation than speed saving.  Also securing and breaking down all that stuff after a long day is a lot of extra annoyance for myself.  I like being able to just take off the tool belt and throw it in the back.

About the best use I have seen for a nail gun is one handed nailing when one other hand has to hold the board.  Over all the years of watching other amateurs (which I am definitely one myself) one handed nail, that is usually the first invitation to shoot a nail through some skin.  The risk of my co-pay, the lost time of the doctor's visit, and the pain do not out way the few extra hours I might gain in nailing.  For me most of the time a driver and a screw can be used by one hand to hold in place a board for nailing later.

Thanks for the tips.  I plan to nail and glue almost every board and piece of sheathing in the house.  I will be royally screwed trying to undo any of it.

[Squirl]

Don, you had mentioned about cost. Here was my breakdown of general estimates as to why cost for the galvanized didn't seem like much of a difference.

For the Sheathing.

On my 20x30 single story I estimate that I will have around 2500 sq. ft of sheathing. At 32 sq. ft. per piece of plywood, my estimate is around 80 sheets of sheathing.  I estimate 45 nails per piece (6" spacing, 24" O/C framing).  That would be 3600 nails.  If I add 100% more to that for extras, bent nails, missed nails, screw ups, cut pieces and a half dozen other reasons, I come to 7200 nails.  There are around 9000 nails in a 50 lb bucket.  I will hopefully be able to sheath the house with one 50 lb bucket of 8d galvanized ring shank nails. Cost $60.  The 50 lb bucket of non-galvanized, non ring shank, 2 3/8" nails  is $30.  So for $30 extra I could sheath the entire house in stronger longer lasting nails.  

[OlJarhead]

Perhaps a little side tracked but I never use Galvies where I don't have to.  Personally I hate the things as they bend easily (softer I guess) and I'm not sure they hold better at all.

I use Brights where I can or coated for the air nailer and only use Galvies when I have to.

[Don_P]

The minimum yield strength for galvy, cc or bright nails is the same, deformed or smooth shank. But if you have a carpenter smoking a high friction nail of the same diameter home they're going to bend more. My wife has the same trouble. It is the zen of driving the nail. A hot dipped galvy does hold better than a smooth shank as does any deformed shank. One of my jobs at a furniture plant involved building a hydraulic test bench and testing nailed and glued connections. I got into a debate with a professor of engineering who's thesis was on nailed connections. I maintain that a screw shank is the strongest nail in withdrawal. He pointed out that a ring shank has the highest initial strength. When you pull both of these what you'll find is we were both right. A ring shank has a higher initial strength, but when it "pops" the rest of the withdrawal is lower than the screw shanks withdrawal. The fibers that are embedded in the rings are reversed and then the withdrawal is about the same as a smooth nail where the screw shank twists in as you drive it and has more and longer fiber bound around it. When does that initial nail pop occur? When the rockers and roofers stock the building.

Going to hardened ring shank Ardox pole barn type nails is stronger through moisture cycling. As MD noted clinching, or making a nail "dead" is a great way to make a stronger connection. In pallet type applications the nails are "spotted" or shot through the 2 pieces and into a steel plate that deforms them.

In log building we often framed with galvys so that we wouldn't get rust staining on the logs if we got wet.

A roofer is not a structural nail, ever. The head on a roofer is too thin and not well enough attached to prevent it being pulled off under load. I visited a job I didn't get a few months ago, the low baller bidder had built the ridgetop cabin using roofers in every hanger  .

[MountainDon]

Thanks for the word on the roofing nails, never thought about the head. Glad I've only used them on shingles where they were meant to be used.

[davidj]

Around here (Northern CA), the 8d galvanized ring shank nails always seem to be thinner than the 8d galvanized common nails.  The gun 8d galvanized ring shank were .120 but I think most non-gun 8d galvies are box, i.e. .113 cf .131 for the 8d common). I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be code approved for structural sheathing.  And, consequently, the ring shank galvies do bend more.

16d common are also a lot of work if the wood isn't great.  If it were me I'd used 16d sinkers (using the 3.25x.131 gun nailing schedules, not the 16d common schedules, i.e. a few more nails in some situations), 8d common for sheathing and 8d ring shank galvanized for siding.  This all assumes your inspector won't mind.

[Actually, if it were me I'd use gun nails as I've pretty much forgotten how to use a hammer properly at this point!].

[Squirl]

All of the 8d ring shank galvanized are listed as #11 nail gauge (.121) and the 8d common sinker nails are listed at #11.5 (.113 code minimum).  I also went to the local big box store to take a look.  Even though they are listed as ring shank, they look like screw shanks in person.  Thanks for the description Don_P.  I would have been a little upset if you didn't tell me screw shank was just as good as ring shank.  All the nail guides I had read were ring shanks for softwood and screw shanks for hard wood, but if both are good and I don't have to worry about any type of reaction from the galvanization I will go with it.

I had a suspicion about the roofing nails.  Just because I had seen it done and not fail .....

David, you are pretty lucky.  The stores around here didn't carry 10 gauge 8D nails. I guess that is a good follow up question.  Would the twist of a #11 ring shank be better than a #10 smooth shank?  Both are over code.  Does it matter or am I splitting hairs over miniscule details?

[MountainDon]

The larger diameter nail will have better shear strength. The spiral nail will have better withdrawal resistance. For something like sheathing maybe the shear strength is more important. Or maybe it's being over thought?