Q: For those with SunMar compost toilets

gardensandcabins · June 29, 2011, 08:55:18 AM

Which one do I REALLY need for 4 people full time use?
Completely off the grid situation, I don't trust what they advertise on the website.
Looking for real world usage. 4 people full time every day use. Which one? How often do you empty it? How well is it working for you?

MountainDon · June 29, 2011, 10:34:43 AM

The issue we have with our NE is that as it is not used full time. That means much of the time the temperatures are too low for the composting action to work. That stops at about 50-55 degrees F. Not something they make easy to find in their sales info. Other then that it works fine. We end up removing partially or non-composted material via the drawer and incinerating it.

June 29, 2011, 10:31:53 PM

Thank you very much. The reason I ask about SunMar is they are the only one that seems to be certified by the NSF, which NYS code requires. If I am wrong please correct me..

Squirl · June 30, 2011, 06:31:23 AM

Envirolet also has an NSF certification. They are sold through home depot. They are about the same price. Sunmar seems to be more popular.
http://www.envirolet.com/doesenhavnsf.html
There are a few with this certification. I don't know them all off the top of my head. Envirolet and Sunmar were in my price range.

If you need it as a reference here is the code for NY septic systems.

http://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/nycrr/title_10/part_75/appendix_75-a.htm

gardensandcabins · July 02, 2011, 02:42:29 AM

Thank you very much for the info..
I know as boring of a subject as it is.. It's something I have to get figured out..
Thought I would get real world experiences from you guys.. Not just the brochure..

July 02, 2011, 07:41:35 AM

I would assume that the electric ones don't have the temp. problem.

Do they really work without any odor? The brochures make it all seem so wonderful (of course). Seems hard to believe that they work odor free.

Squirl · July 03, 2011, 10:52:40 AM

I had heard in the real world they have a slight peaty earthy smell. The electric unit has a 250 watt heater built in. This is an intense issue for me also. I was looking a piece of land. I just got the perc done on Friday. They said "it has 13 inches of usable soil." Luckily the building inspector and engineer and contractor were all there at the time of the test. We were going through the options: sand mound "$20,000", peat mound "$26,000." I kept saying no way I'm canceling the sale contract. I asked what about composting?" The position of the engineer and inspector was I don't need a septic system at all then. I would just need a grey water system. The engineer is drawing up with his stamp and the inspector says he would accept it. A lot of the code acceptability (I remember you had questions about this) are on the last half of the sentence of greywater treatment in the code I posted above. It is slightly ambiguous. Some counties take this as that all greywater must be treated with a full septic system. Others take it that all you need is a drywell.

I'm working on the same problem as you are right now. I'm wondering if one of their show rooms or dealers has a working model to take for a test drive.

archimedes · July 03, 2011, 11:12:35 AM

Squirl

What would a greywater system look like then?

The NYS guidelines say;
(5) Greywater Systems. Greywater systems shall be designed upon a flow of 75 gpd/bedroom and meet all the criteria previously discussed for treatment of household wastewater.

It seems that they are saying that the system needs to be the same type just less gallons per day capacity.

Squirl · July 04, 2011, 06:37:20 AM

I don't know what the exact greywater system would be. I was told it would need to be a dry well or maybe laterals capable of handling the flow. They said they weren't concerned about treatment. It sounded like the pit section of the code. I read the same line and was perplexed. I am not a professional licensed septic engineer. I am also not a code enforcement officer. I will have an official plan with an engineer stamp next week. My building inspector, who is the the entire building department, said he would approve it. He has done a few, including one just last month. He recommended sunmar. He was mostly familiar with it. It sounded like that is the only one anyone had used. He was a stickler that it had to be installed per manufacturers directs to the T. He was concerned with occupancy. I went over the house plan with one bedroom with 1 story, which he said was fine. I have to confirm that I don't have to get approval for the design from anyone else. I will call the county water and soil or health department. Even the plumbing contactor there to do the deep hole test, who did not seem happy I would not be hiring him, told me I didn't need a septic system with a composting toilet. Because of that code language I am still cautious until it is official.

July 05, 2011, 10:45:35 AM

As a follow up, on the septic permit application for my county (Otsego) and township there are three fields for absorption field:
Leach Bed
Leach Field
Drywell (special approval required)

So it appears that a drywell for absorption is a possibility of how they interpret the code. I know that there are many NY builders on this site. I hope this helps. Through my readings and discussions, I believe they only approve of this if it fails for conventional septic. A conventional septic system is a lot cheaper anyway.

Yankeesouth · July 06, 2011, 09:34:29 AM

I am still kicking around the idea of a composter as well. As a side note/question......if they don't fully compost down the waste can they be pumped out by someone who does septics?

Squirl · July 06, 2011, 02:07:46 PM

Yankeesouth, I think you are in PA IIRC. IIRC technically they have to be emptied by a septic hauler in pa anyway and the waste disposed of in an approved facility. (stupid isn't it) PA is a little behind when it comes to composting. Other than that you shouldn't have to "pump out" anything. Most have drawers to simply empty out, fluids should be evaporated or excess drained into the soil per manufactures instructions.

Sorry to highjack the thread gardensandcabins. I have been asking around a lot of people, but I live in PA. As mentioned they are a little behind on the composting.

So, on the NY grey water topic. The letter from the engineer states that I would need 3 laterals of 32' of infiltrators. With my perc rate(21-30 min.) and doing the math the field size is equivalent to the same field size for a conventional system. My calculations: A conventional system 2 bedroom 220 gallon requires a field size of 184 ft of trenches or .83 ft per gallon. Composting is 75 gallons per bedroom for 2 bedrooms of 150 gallons at .83ft per gallon or 125 feet of trenches. In the code it gives a 25% field reduction size for infiltrators or 31 ft in this case for a field size of 94 feet. Pretty close. I was told the grey water system wouldn't need a septic tank. And no one (engineer/building inspector) seems concerned with the shallow soils for grey water.

I added up the numbers and a conventional septic system still would have been much cheaper if I could get it. Again these numbers are specific to my situation. I can't guarantee the building inspectors or engineers with share the same opinion in other parts of the state. The nice thing is in NY, septic approval is usually put on septic engineers. Many code officials defer to them for expertise on alternative designs. You may be able to shop around for an engineer of your liking. This was one of the primary reasons I am building in NY.

Squirl · July 06, 2011, 04:59:50 PM

One of the best insights into how they work that I found was watching video's online of how to people operate them.

gardensandcabins · July 06, 2011, 05:40:26 PM

Quote from: Squirl on July 06, 2011, 02:07:46 PM

Sorry to highjack the thread gardensandcabins. I have been asking around a lot of people, but I live in PA. As mentioned they are a little behind on the composting.

Hijack away.. I am reading, and learning..
We are technically just "camping" on our property.. We just camp every week..
So I don't think we'll need a gray water system or anything..
Should be able to catch it in a bucket and dump it on a tree or bushes.
It sounds like you are building a full time legal residence.

July 07, 2011, 07:56:20 AM

Thanks Squirl...I am in PA. What a pain in the arse when it comes to codes and local control. Do you have any links to the sites on how "real" people use them? I've only seem the company sponsored sites. Also my concern is my toilet will be in a shaded area. Not exactly damp and moist but under a building and trees nonetheless. I've heard horror stories about emptying basically raw sewage because the liquids don't separate like they should. SunMar seems to be the most positively talked about of the composting toilet systems for separating and composting. Any thoughts anyone?

Squirl · July 07, 2011, 08:42:46 AM

I spoke with the building inspector to cover my bases. I asked if he usually approves these. He said he approved one just last month. A person was camping on his land. He was bringing it up to code for a residence. The property was far too sloped for a septic system. He approved a composting with a greywater drywell. I also asked if it has to go past anyone else (fearing the county health department) and he told me that he is the only person in the approval process after the engineer.

Yankeesouth,
I found this one useful, even if the women are a little annoying. It shows the complete process of the "flush" of peat and wood chips, the handle turning mechanism, the emptying drawer, and it shows the actual waste material in the toilet. It is much more hands on than the sun mar promo videos. I also saw a detailed customer review on Cabela's website. Also I found they were $100 cheaper there than anyplace else I could find them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCDWOO6bYh8

From my site evaluation I found the plumbing/septic contractor was slightly negative on his view, the engineer was indifferent, and the building inspector was all for them. It is funny how opinions differ amongst those financially affected by them. Also if you read people that don't have to install a septic system and the green earth crowd it is all sunshine and roses. The truth is probably in the middle.

I read in the sunmar manuals and peoples complaints the situation you described. The most common problem they ascribe that too is a clogged screen in the drum. The most common problem from that is too much peat and not enough dry material, or not enough material being added. There is also supposed to be a drain added to the back for excess liquid. This was one of the areas that the building inspector highlighted when following manufacturer's instructions. Other common problems are people over turning or not turning the handle enough. Then again, many don't read appliance manuals, myself included sometimes. Also you have to watch by brand, some are really just a bucket it a toilet seat shell.

Yankeesouth · July 07, 2011, 09:30:34 AM

Squirl,
Thanks for the insight and link. I am most likely going with an electric model of the SunMar line. I think it's the E2000 model. (Can't remember exactly.) Its' suppose to have a heating element and self turning drum. We'll see......wife wants facilities in the cabin before winter hits. Could be interesting.

Pine Cone · July 07, 2011, 09:59:07 AM

We have 3+ years of experience with a heated Envirolet/Sancor composting toilet. No full time use, mostly just weekends with two people.

With just the two of us there is no odor. It actually would work better with a bit more use since the solids tend to dry up at times.

When we get a big group out for a 3-day weekend (about 12 people this year) it starts to smell some after the first day. The next weekend I stir things up good and by 2nd weekend after heavy use things have composted a bit and the odor is gone. Odor is never as bad as an old-fashioned outhouse, and even then it smells you don't smell it all the time, just the occasional whiff.

I empty ours every 9-12 months so far. Still playing with different add-in materials including sawdust and peat moss. I try and empty it after a low use period and have to do some sorting to remove the composted stuff in the lower draw and then put back the "fresher" material into the toilet. I like Mtn. Don's incineration idea for the removed material since we are often burning big brush piles and it would be easy to do. So far I have dug small holes and buried the material out of the toilet.

It really isn't too unpleasant, but it isn't like garden compost either.

Bottom line, we like ours and have gotten used to it. The only thing I would do different is that ours is in a detached 4'x8' outhouse building and we should have insulated it. The winter heat bill is higher than I would like and the room is still cold...

Squirl · July 07, 2011, 10:19:59 AM

Pinecone, I seem to get a smell out of any bathroom I have owned when 12 people are using it. Is it better or worse than that? I was hoping the peat/pine chips would help mask the odor.

The low flush models to a remote container seemed like the best, but I will not have a heated or finished floor under the bathroom.

gardensandcabins · July 07, 2011, 04:36:04 PM

Helpful information...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ih17XFOkSc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJeDTbXH57Y

July 07, 2011, 05:02:14 PM

Hard to believe that first video is preferable to the powers that be over a humanure system, if the point is to minimize smell and more importantly the handling of waste. The complexity introduces all sorts of problems / conditions. Most everything she is doing is wrong and avoidable in a well designed and managed composting system. Yuck.

Squirl · July 07, 2011, 05:04:10 PM

Yeah, those two contain some of the problems I talked mentioned. You have to watch the brand. The first video, her toilet was definitely not NSF rated. I have seen that model advertised as a temporary one for campers. It didn't look like she even cleans it. I would be more comfortable just using the 5 gallon bucket method.

The second looks like the sunmar remote model for part time use (centrex 1000). He obviously didn't read the manual. There is a drain built into the model and it requires it, especially for non electric models. Also you are supposed to leave the compost in the finishing drawer for 3-4 weeks before opening the drawer, especially before tossing it in the woods. Combined with the fact that he stated he used it yesterday, he might as well just have gone to the bathroom in his flower bed.

MountainDon · July 07, 2011, 08:17:40 PM

We have never had a bad odor in the shed where the SunMar is located.

On the roof though you want to be careful not to place your face over the 4 inch vent pipe; it does smell up there.

SunMar toilets do not separate urine from solid waste. If there ends up being too much urine in the rotating drum it drains through to the bottom of the unit where the heater (if equipped) is located. If there is too much urine in there is drains out the hose. In our arid climate I have never had any problems with too much liquid waste. The liquid overflow drain could be an issue in many locales; that is looked upon as being "black" water.

QuoteI would assume that the electric ones don't have the temp. problem.

Depends. It is the temperate of the stuff in the drum that matters. It would have to be at 50-55F or more to compost just like a non electric model. The electric heater helps a little on that I suppose, but the toilet chamber is not insulated. So it won't help a lot in cold weather unless boxed and insulated. The fans assist in drying out the moisture if there is too much.

Pine Cone · July 07, 2011, 10:43:38 PM

Quote from: Squirl on July 07, 2011, 10:19:59 AM
Pinecone, I seem to get a smell out of any bathroom I have owned when 12 people are using it. Is it better or worse than that? I was hoping the peat/pine chips would help mask the odor.

The low flush models to a remote container seemed like the best, but I will not have a heated or finished floor under the bathroom.

Normal use = no odor, 10+ people use means minor unpleasant smells a couple of times a day depending on the wind. Ours has a 3" vent pipe up through the roof with a ventilator fan on top (wind powered) and a small fan in the toilet box. Odors are strictly coming from the top vent pipe. Never seems to smell when you open it up to use it.

We had a liquid overflow once in 3 years, I hadn't plumbed the overflow quite right so we had a minor leak onto the toilet shed floor. I should have been using the heater since that would have evaporated away my problem. That was about 15 months ago, fixed the plumbing and no problems since then.

The Envirolet we have also mixes liquid and solid wastes. Pretty tidy and it works well for two people. Supposed to work for 4 people but we have never had that kind of consistent use.

We have no experience with either low flush or remote containers, but ours works well enough that we are satisfied with it. Winter's here have a few months will lows in the 20s and 30s, but we don't tend to use the cabin as much in those months either. Slow winter composting has not been an issue so far.

Squirl · July 08, 2011, 10:13:40 AM

Thank you pine cone and mountaindon. That was very helpful. So the smell is not from the toilet or the bathroom, but the vent stack. I will have to invest in some extra tall piping. As you may be able to tell, the seller made a concession on price to account for the added cost and probably lower resale value for the planned house. So a composting toilet will be a practical requirement for a certificate of occupancy.

Sorry, I never answered your question about which model. I did notice in reading the sunmar manuals that the lower number they state is for full time adults. The additional people in the X-X number are children. So for four full time adults, you would need one of the central units. I would prefer to get one of those, but I am building a 1 story with a crawl space. I haven't figured out how to have it in an unheated space, in cold upstate ny, without easy access to turn the handle. Any ideas?