Ft Hood Massacre: How did he get off over 100 rounds ?

[Windpower]

I know there are some very experienced shooters on the board

Something about this story doesn't pass the smell test

http://www.lewrockwell.com/spl/ft-hood-story-full-of-holes.html

sbip

After the horrible massacre at Ft. Hood, I spoke with a few people who served in the military. A retired army Capt. who served 7 years in the 173rd Airborne including time as a S-3 in a RSTA squadron said this: "There is no way a psychiatrist – basically an intellectual desk jockey – shot off hundreds of rounds with two pistols and hit about 40 people without being subdued by someone. Come on! He wasn't a trained assassin or a special ops commando shooting up a mall. He would have had to reload and that means putting one of the pistols down and reloading the other with seasoned combat vets in that deployment center. It only takes seconds to reload, but it only takes a second to subdue him."


A retired MP, Michael Martinez also said: "No way! That would be impossible. Even if he had two semi-auto pistols [according to early reports he used a 9mm and a .357 revolver to gun down over 40 people] he would still have had to stop to reload and someone would have jumped his ass. Most people on base aren't carrying [weapons], but MPs are and they would have been there in a heartbeat."

[peternap]

You need to find some new experts. A hundred rounds isn't that much using high cap magazines and people that are getting shot at, usually run like hell, rather than duck.

The real problem is that while there are plenty of guns on a military base, the powers that be are stingy handing out Ammo unless there is a specific reason.

Now it does surprise me he hit 40 people.

[glenn kangiser]

There are stories of more shooters on the net but wanting to blame it on a Muslim and not let out the story of mutiny in the ranks.

[glenn kangiser]

Part of the continuously changing story (typical coverup).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20091113/ts_ynews/ynews_ts980

[glenn kangiser]

Lots of evidence and indications of a drill/possible false flag operation going on.

http://www.rense.com/general88/trp.htm

Includes a long list of references.

[rwanders]

After only a few entries this thread already exhibits how "web-based conspiracy theories" have their genesis:

1.  A few self appointed "experts" decide, without any real info or facts beyond what they read or hear in the news or from other "experts" on the web, what must have or could not have happened.

2. These experts then point to the usual uncertainties and inaccuracies (they have eagerly engaged in spreading many of these "theories" already--see #1 above) as proof that a "cover-up has already begun".

3. Each time these "experts" relate their theories, they will continue to stack more "facts", unsupported by anything other than a chain of the theories they have imagined or "read on the web" from other "experts", sufficient to demonstrate to themselves and other conspiracy theorists that only they know the "real story".

4.  A guilty party, preferably a shadowy government agency or a secret society, is then chosen by the same "experts" as the evil masterminds who have bamboozled everyone but them.

5. The "experts" who have cleverly outsmarted all those ignorant or "sold-out" officials now can bask in the warm glow gained by unmasking the insidious plotting of (insert your favorite group of villains here).

[RainDog]

Wow. Just... wow.

[glenn kangiser]

If the official story did not have so many holes and changes there would be no need for theorizing.

Here we have a repeat of the Jessica Lynch thing also which was eventually proven to be Government showmanship and lies. 

In this one also the cute shot girl was supposed to have shot him and it turns out that it was likely another person that actually did it.  They realize that a play on sympathy will get a lot more rage and volunteers for their killing machine.  (Make people despise Muslims and don't let repulsion against the war for oil, power and profit at the expense of the people get a boost and most of all, not a hint of mutiny).

If you only believe the official stories, you will be sadly disappointed when reality slaps you in the face.

[ScottA]

I assume this guy will be tried in a military court since this happened on a base? If he lives that long. If so we'll never know what really happened. I am doubtful a single shooter could have fired that many rounds but it is possible I supose.

[devildog]

You need to find some new experts. A hundred rounds isn't that much using high cap magazines and people that are getting shot at, usually run like hell, rather than duck.

The real problem is that while there are plenty of guns on a military base, the powers that be are stingy handing out Ammo unless there is a specific reason.

Now it does surprise me he hit 40 people.

I agree with peternap.
And as a Marine Corps Infantryman for 5 yrs. I can say his statement is very true. We marched and ran all over MCB Camp Lejuene. Outside the chowhall, the px ,the base hospital,..... caring our M16A2's.  And if someone would have opened fire we couldnt have fired back. We were never aloud to carry or have on our person any live ammo.The only place for live ammo was a live fire range or combat. If you ever got caught with it you'd be looking at a page 11 right up(a written statament of your screwup in your permanent records) or some other clever wayyour unit could come up with to punish you. Even when we went to the rifle range, every round was accounted for.

But saying that, knowing some of the guys I was with, they'd find a way to take him out. with no thought for there own life.It would be the right thing to do.
Darrell

[peternap]

Just to give an example Windpower. Last week I took my wife and a friend of hers shooting. Since I had been busy at the loading bench, I showed them the proper way to shoot someone that was being an annoyance.

The distance was 21 feet because I have hammered the 21 foot rule into them.

She has a 14 round magazine and the spare is the same.

I emptied the first mag in just under two seconds and another two to reload, two more to empty it again.

All shots hit the silhouette and all but three were center mass.

So you can do the math.I shot 28 rounds in 6 seconds and I'm old.

[rwanders]

 

Thank You, Peternap!

[Windpower]

That's fine, Pete

except silhouettes don't fight back or move or throw chairs or fists at you

So if you were in a room with at least 50 combat trained Army infantrymen (some returning from Iraq) do you think you could have reloaded 4 times, 2 seconds each without one of them tackling you and beating you senseless ?

[NM_Shooter]

Sorry Peter, but I'm with the CT folks on this one.

There is no doubt in my mind that George Bush and Dick Cheney were on the grassy knoll next to the processing center also shooting, and that Condoleezza Rice was reloading for them.

If not for the heroic actions of obama and nancy pelosi, this would have been far worse.

I'd explain more, but I have to go put another layer of aluminum foil on my head.

[peternap]

That's fine, Pete

except silhouettes don't fight back or move or throw chairs or fists at you

So if you were in a room with at least 50 combat trained Army infantrymen (some returning from Iraq) do you think you could have reloaded 4 times, 2 seconds each without one of them tackling you and beating you senseless ?

Can't answer that. My shooting experience is limited to one person. I can explain how he got that many shots off but since I've never shot that many people and doubtfully ever will, I can't say why no one took him down.

I can tell you that every combat veteran I know looks for cover when the shooting starts. I have been shot at numerous times and my first reaction is cover and look it over.

This happened quickly and in an area considered safe and I still don't see any evidence of a conspiracy, There is a lot of butt covering and we sure don't know the whole story, but  until I hear something concrete, I'll have to draw on my experience to explain it.

NOW...as far as the silhouettes shooting back. Who there had a workable gun and ammunition to return fire? The local cop is the one who finally shot him.

You can ask the same question about the Tech shooting. Many of the students there are also combat veterans. Just college students in general are tough enough unless they've changed a lot since my days. Everyone hid behind whatever they could and hoped they didn't get hit.

So if you were in a room with at least 50 combat trained Army infantrymen (some returning from Iraq) do you think you could have reloaded 4 times, 2 seconds each without one of them tackling you and beating you senseless ?

Now I did mull that over for a while and assuming I was hell bent on shooting as many people as possible and was shooting at people who had no idea it was coming, regardless of training and experience....the answer is a definite yes.

[Windpower]

"Can't answer that. My shooting experience is limited to one person. I can explain how he got that many shots off but since I've never shot that many people and doubtfully ever will, I can't say why no one took him down."



Fair enough.

Exactly my point about combat trained individuals taking cover. How did he manage to hit 13 fatally and another 30 or so

since may were hit numerous times that is better than a 50% hit rate at moving targets some of whom would certainly be coming at him

damned amazing shooting IMO

[Windpower]

Now I did mull that over for a while and assuming I was hell bent on shooting as many people as possible and was shooting at people who had no idea it was coming, regardless of training and experience....the answer is a definite yes.



How do you square that with your stated 21 foot rule ?

[peternap]

The 21 foot rule is just the time it takes someone to cover that distance. Weapon out and ready, you can always shoot the person before he reaches you.

Walking up to a group with a plan to shoot as many of them as possible is different. The shooter has his plan ready and the victims have no idea that they are in danger.

If you hold to the idea that all military people live with their senses honed and ready for action, he probably wouldn't have gotten more than ten shots off.

That isn't the case though. First, not all Military personnel are really combat trained. They went through basic but then went on to other jobs. Second, not all combat Vets saw any combat. Third, Even seasoned combat Vets in the New Action Army, are trained to use a firearm of some sort. I doubt they spend much time on hand to hand combat anymore.

But the big thing is that they were taken by surprise in a safe zone where the last thing in their mind was being shot. It takes everyone a few seconds to read a dangerous situation and react. In this case, they were dead or disabled before they could react.

[rwanders]

Peternap----some people have watched too many John Wayne movies and combined that with little or no actual military or combat experience----

yes, Wind, I am an Army vet, trained in Armor ( M48; M60, 90mm; 105mm; .50 cal, M60mg, M14, M16, .30cal mg; .45 m1911 .45 cal "greasegun"; M79 grenade launcher----qualified in all of them and reached rank of Captain.  A motivated person with semiautos and high capacity clips entering a confined space crowded with unarmed personnel can definitely accomplish what Hasan did----training and instinct will compel virtually anyone to first seek cover in that circumstance---especially in a large crowd of mostly panicked people---sometimes a few individuals will manage to organize offensive action, but not usually before at least quite a few seconds or minutes have passed. Military training seeks to minimize that time span, but it will never eliminate it.

Even the heroic last charge by the passengers on Flight 93 in Pennsylvania, took quite a while to be organized and occurred only after they became aware that they had no other real options-----people can often summon up great courage but it is seldom instantaneous. Unloading clips pointblank into a packed crowd does not require either great skill or great courage----just fanaticism and contempt for life, both theirs and your own.

The response by the two civilian cops was outstanding at Ft Hood. If any of the soldiers had been armed also, I am confident they too would have reacted with equal initiative and results .

My previous posts on this thread were not intended to denigrate anyone----just to caution against jumping to conclusions unsupported by confirmed facts. Conspiracy theorizing can undoubtedly be entertaining but, like it's close cousin, gossip, it can hurt people and damage reputations needlessly.

[MountainDon]

I would have added my thoughts earlier, but I just rolled back into town. I've been waiting for a CT to come along.


Peter and RW made some excellent points. It seems to me too, that no matter who you are, if you don't have your gun with you especially, your first impulse is to hide, to get to a safe place.

Just because the Hasan guy was a doctor, not a combat soldier, doesn't mean that he could not have a personal interest in firearms and have become very proficient at their use.

Virtually any new story these days is bound to have many points change. That's mainly because today we have this instant reporting of events. We have coverage that begins while the event is unfolding. Back in the old days it took time or the retails to be collected and verified and then finally reported to us. Today they report before verifying.

Oh, I can't forget about Frank. Some good points there too.

[Pox Eclipse]

Indeed, it turns out he frequented a shooting range in the weeks before the rampage:

Investigators told ABC News Hasan became a regular at Stan's Outdoor Shooting Range in Florence, Texas, as the day of the shooting neared. He was last at the range two days before the Nov. 5 rampage, reportedly firing off more than 200 rounds.

[Squirl]

A lot of people over look who he targeted.  He targeted a treatment facility.  A close family friend was actually there receiving treatment during the attack.  He won a medal for saving lives and treating to the wounded.  He was in the front row during the president's veteran's day speech. We are all very proud of him.
 Almost no one was armed.  Many of the victims were psychologists, doctors, nurses, and patients.  Many even non-military personnel.  He attacked the sick, wounded, and vulnerable. His accomplishment of getting off 100 rounds was because of his extreme act of cowardice.

[StinkerBell]

With such a crowded room I would suspect the story to have differing views. 

I can watch a car accident happen and have the view that the driver for no reason slammed on his brakes and the person behind him could not stop. I might even suspect the driver did this intentionally because I saw no reason for this sudden stop. However a person on the other side of the street may have a broader view. They saw a child's ball bouncing out to the street. From that view point the driver slammed on his breaks because of the ball and caused the person behind him to slam into him. Now from the drivers perspective he saw something coming out in front of his car, it was possibly so quick he just reacted, maybe a kid or a dog? He instinctively slammed on his brakes, not wanting to hit a something, especially a child.

It is like the four Gospels. Some ask why four? Because all though they all experienced being with Christ, they all saw the things they saw from their view. Story is the same, nothing changed but how it was seen. From a different view point.

End result, a nutcase went into FT Hood and did something horrible. I do not suspect to have a 100 people give me  the same exact story, but they would all agree a nutcase came in shot up the place and killed people.

[NM_Shooter]

I shouldn't joke about this sort of thing.  It is inappropriate and I apologize.

When I hear about shootings like this, I am often more amazed that the number killed seems small. 

This was not a compulsive act.  It was well thought out by a fairly educated person, who was more than likely capable of figuring out the best way to inflict the most damage. 

I know very little about the details of the shooting, and would like to know more about this myself.

In a very crowded area, I would guess that he did not just wade into the middle and start shooting.  That would have exposed him to being subdued very quickly.  I would bet that he got behind a desk or reception area counter... enough to keep persons from very easily being able to reach him.  It does not take much to slow a person down, and having firepower when others had none would dissuade anyone from trying to reach him.  A little cover goes a long way.  Once established behind some physical cover, any halfway decent shooter using a braced position could do a lot of damage in a hurry.  Probably more effective if he was up on some stairs in terms of being able to see the room better. 

Does anyone know the details?

[RainDog]

 The Washington Post has published the presentation given to senior Army doctors in June 2007 by alleged Fort Hood killer Nidal Malik Hasan. Instead of lecturing about a medical subject as expected, Hasan recited a litany of standard justifications for militant Islam. It's amazing (and not in a good way) that this episode didn't prompt a serious investigation; Hasan wasn't exactly hiding his ideology.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2009/11/10/GA2009111000920.html