Pirates

[NM_Shooter]

The cost to deploy the navy would be high... but heck they have to be somewhere and they are getting paid anyway.  Give them some target practice while they are waiting for something substantial!!   

[SpoonyG]

Reply #44 on: April 14, 2009, 05:34:44 PM

- Accurate cartoon.  Appeasement never solves the problem.

Place a Marine escort team on ships as they pass through that area.  I'd think 3-4 would be enough to drive off (eliminate/remove/terminate?) any pirate attack.  They disembark once the ship has traveled beyond the threat area and embark on the next ship traveling on a reverse course.  This would address concerns of arming merchantmen.  Just a thought...

[Squirl]

One aircraft carrier should be able to solve this.  My understanding is they have almost 300 miles or an area the size of Texas to monitor.  The F-15's can be every where within seconds.  They can protect ships from every country.  A little diplomacy in this too.

[pagan]

It would be far cheaper to put a squad of men on each ship passing through the area.

[Windpower]

FYI - You may have seen another account of this that tries to highlight Obama's indecision. This is a different viewpoint.
 
Not sure who the source of this info is, apparently a USNA grad from the late 50's who is passing this on from people in the know...This version seems to be the most authentic thus far.
 
 
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:59:28 -0400
Subject: Pirate Saga Details
 
 
Forwarded FYI. This sounds like the real story as it fits with other accounts but makes more sense.
 
Your "Real" story is not exactly the way I heard it, and probably has a few political twists thrown in to stir the pot. Rather than me trying to correct it, I'll just tell you what I found out from my contacts at NSWC (Naval Special Warfare Command) Norfolk and at SOCOM (Special Operations Command) Tampa.
 
First though, let me orient you to familiarize you with the "terrain."
 
In Africa from Djibouti at the southern end of the Red Sea eastward through the Gulf of Aden to round Cape Guardafui at the easternmost tip of Africa (also known as "The Horn of Africa") is about a 600 nm transit before you stand out into the Indian Ocean. That transit is comparable in distance to that from the mouth of theMississippi at New Orleans to the tip of Florida at Key West-- except that 600 nm over there is infested with Somalia pirates.
 
Ships turning southward at the Horn of Africa transit the SLOC (Sea Lane of Commerce) along the east coast of Somalia because of the prevailing southerly currents there. It's about 1,500 nm on to Mombassa, which is just south of the equator in Kenya. Comparably, that's about the transit distance from Portland Maine down the east coast of the US to Miami Florida. In other words, the ocean area being patrolled by our naval forces off the coast of Somalia is comparable to that in the Gulf of Mexicofrom the Mississippi River east to Miami then up the eastern seaboard to Maine.
 
Second, let me globally orient you from our Naval Operating Base in Norfolk, VA, east across the Atlantic to North Africa, thence across the Med to Suez in Egypt, thence southward down the Red Sea to Djibouti at the Gulf of Aden, thence eastward to round Cape Guardafui at the easternmost tip of Africa, and thence southerly some 300 miles down the east cost of Somali out into the high seas of the Indian Ocean to the position of MV ALABAMA is a little more than 7,000 nm, and plus-nine time-zones ahead of EST.
 
Hold that thought, in that, a C-17 transport averaging a little better than 400 kts (SOG) takes the best part of 18 hours to make that trip. In the evening darkness late Thursday night, a team of Navy SEALs from NSWC (Naval Surface Warfare Center) Norfolk parachuted from such a C-17 into the black waters (no refraction of light) of the Indian Ocean-- close-aboard to our 40,000 ton amphibious assault ship, USS BOXER (LHD 4), the flagship of our ESG (Expeditionary Strike Group) in the AOR (Area Of Responsibility, the Gulf of Aden). They not only parachuted in with all of their "equipment," they had their own inflatable boats, RHIB's (Rigid Hull, Inflatable Boats) with them for over-water transport. They went into BOXER's landing dock, debarked, and staged for the rescue-- Thursday night.
 
And, let me comment on time-late: In that the SEAL's quick response-- departing ready-alert in less than 4 hours from Norfolk-- supposedly surprised POTUS's staff, whereas President Obama was miffed not to get his "cops" there before the Navy. He reportedly questioned his staff, "Will 'my' FBI people get there before the Navy does?" It took the FBI almost 12 hours to put together a team and get them packed-up-- for an "at sea" rescue. The FBI was trying to tell him that they are not practiced to do this-- Navy SEALs are. But, BHO wanted the FBI there "to help," that is, carry out the Attorney General's (his) orders to negotiate the release of Captain Phillips peacefully-- because apparently he doesn't trust GW's military to carry out his "political guidance."
 
The flight of the FBI's passenger jet took a little less than 14 hours at 500-some knots to get to Djibouti. BOXER'S helos picked them up and transported them out to the ship. The Navy SEALs were already there, staged, and ready to act by the time POTUS's FBI arrived on board latter that evening. Notably, the first request by the OSC (On Scene Commander) that early Friday morning to take them out and save Captain Phillips was denied, to wit: "No, wait until 'my' FBI people get there."
 
Third, please consider a candid assessment of ability that finds that the FBI snipers had never practiced shooting from a rolling, pitching, yawing, surging, swaying, heaving platform-- and, target-- such as a ship and a lifeboat on the high seas. Navies have been doing since Admiral Nelson who had trained "Marines" to shoot muskets from the ship's rigging-- ironically, he was killed at sea in HMS VICTORY at the Battle of Trafalgar by a French Marine rifleman that shot him from the rigging of the French ship that they were grappling alongside.
 
Notably, when I was first training at USNA in 1955, the Navy was doing it with a SATU, Small Arms Training Unit, based at our Little Creek amphib base. Now, Navy SEAL's, in particular SEAL Team SIX (The "DevGru") based at NSWC (Naval Surface Warfare Center) at Little Creek do that training now, and hone their skills professionally-- daily. Shooting small arms from a ship is more of an accomplished "Art Form" than it is a practiced skill. When you are "in the bubble" and "in tune" with the harmonic motion you find, through practice, that you are "able to put three .308 slugs inside the head of a quarter at 100 meters, in day or night-- or, behind a camouflaged net or a thin enclosure, such as a superstructure bulkhead. Yes, we have the monocular scopes that can "see" heat-- and, draw a bead on it. SEALs are absolutely expert at it-- with the movie clips to prove it.
 
Okay, now try to imagine patrolling among the boats fishing everyday out on the Grand Banks off our New England coast, and then responding to a distress call from down around the waters between Florida and the Bahamas. Three points for you to consider here: (1) Time-Distance-Speed relationships for ships on the high seas, for instance, at a 25-knot SOA (Speed Of Advance) it takes 24 hours to make good 600 nm-- BAINBRIDGE did. (2) Fishermen work on the high seas, and (3) The best place to hide as a "fisherman" pirate is among other fishermen
 
Early Wednesday morning, 4/8/2009, MV ALABAMA is at sea in the IO about 300 miles off the (east) coast of Somalia en route to Mombassa Kenya. Pirates in small boat start harassing her, and threatening her with weapons. MV ALABAMA's captain sent out the distress call by radio, and ordered his Engineer to shut down the engines as well as the ship-service electrical generators-- in our lingo, "Go dark and cold." He informed his crew by radio what was happening, and ordered them to go to an out-of-the-way compartment and lock themselves in it-- from the inside. He would stay in the pilot house to "negotiate" with the pirates.
 
The pirates boarded, captured the Captain, and ordered him to start the engines. He said he would order his Engineer to do so, and he called down to Engine Control on the internal communication system, but got no answer. The lead pirate ordered two of his four men to go down and find him and get the engines started.
 
Inside a ship without any lights is like the definition of dark. The advantage goes to the people who work and live there. They jumped the two pirates in a dark passageway. Both pirates lost their weapons, but one managed to scramble and get away. The other they tied up, put tape over his mouth and a knife at his throat.
 
Other members of the crew opened the drain cocks on the pirates boat and cast it adrift. It foundered and sunk. The scrambling pirate made it back to the pilot house and told of his demise. The pirates took the Captain at gun point, and told him to launch one of his rescue boats (not a life boat, per se). As he was lowering the boat for them, the crew appeared with the other pirate to negotiate a trade. The crew let their hostage go to soon, and the pirates kept the captain. But, he purposefully had lowered the boat so it would jam.
 
With the rescue boat jammed, the pirates jumped over to a lifeboat and released it as the captain jumped in the water. They fired at him, made him stop, and grabbed him out of the water. Now, as night falls in the vastness of the Indian Ocean, we have the classic "Mexican" standoff, to wit: A life-boat that is just that, a life-boat adrift without any means of propulsion except oars and paddles; and, a huge (by comparison) Motor Vessel Container Ship adrift with a crew that is not going to leave their captain behind. The pirates are enclosed under its shelter-covering, holding the captain as their hostage. The crew is hunkered down in their ship waiting for the "posse" to arrive.
 
After receiving MV ALABAMA'S distress call, USS BAINBRIDGE (DDG 96) was dispatched by the ESG commander to respond to ALABAMA's distress call. At best sustainable speed, she arrived on scene the day after-- that is, in the dark of that early Thursday morning. As BAINBRIDGE quietly and slowly, at darkened-ship without any lights to give her away, arrived on scene, please consider a recorded interview with the Chief Engineer of MV ALABAMA describing BAINBRIDGE's arrival. He said it was something else "... to see the Navy slide in there like a greyhound!" He then said as she slipped in closer he could see the "Stars and Stripes" flying from her masthead. He got choked up saying it was the "...proudest moment of my life."
 
Phew! Let that sink in.
Earlier in the day, one of the U.S. Navy's Maritime Patrol Aircraft, a fixed wing P3C, flew over to recon the scene. They dropped a buoy with a radio to the pirates so that the Navy's interpreter could talk with the pirates. When BAINBRIDGE arrived, the pirates thought the radio to be a beaconing device, and threw it overboard. They wanted a satellite telephone so that they could call home for help. Remember now, they are fishermen, not "Rocket Scientists," in that, they don't know that we can intercept the phone transmission also.
 
MV ALABAMA provided them with a satellite phone. They called home back to "somebody" in Eyl Somalia (so that we now know where you live) to come out and get them. The "somebody" in Eyl said they would be out right away with other hostages, like 54 of them from other countries, and that they would be coming out in two of their pirated ships. Right-- and, the tooth fairy will let you have sex with her. Yea, in paradise. The "somebody" in Eyl just chalked up four more expendables as overhead for "the cost of operation." Next page.
 
Anyway, ESG will continue to "watch" Eyl for any ships standing out.
 
The Navy SEAL team, SEAL TEAM SIX, from NSWC briefed the OSC (Commander Castellano, CO BAINBRIDGE) on how they could rescue the captain from the life boat with swimmers-- "Combat Swimmers," per se. That plan was denied by POTUS because it put the captain in danger-- and, involved killing the pirates.
 
The FBI negotiators arrived on scene, and talked the pirates into sending their wounded man over for treatment Saturday morning. Later that afternoon, the SEAL's sent over their RHIB with food and water to recon the life boat but the pirates shot at it. They could have taken them out then (from being fired upon) but were denied again being told that the captain was not in "imminent danger." The FBI negotiators calmed the situation by informing the pirates of threatening weather as they could see storm clouds closing from the horizon, and offered to tow the life boat. The pirates agreed, and BAINBRIDGE took them under tow in their wake at 30 meters-- exactly 30 meters, which is exactly the distance the SEALs practice their shooting skills.
 
With the lifeboat under tow, riding comfortably bow-down on BAINBRIDGE's wake-wave ("rooster tail"), had a 17-second period of harmonic motion, and at the end of every half-period (8.5 seconds) was steady on. The light-enhanced (infra-red heat) monocular scopes on the SEAL's .308 caliber Mark 11 Mod 0 H&K suppressor-fitted sniper rifles easily imaged their target very clearly. Pirates in a life boat at 30-meters could be compared to fish in a barrel. All that was necessary was to take out the plexiglass window so that it would not deflect the trajectory of the high velocity .308 round. So, a sniper (one of four) with a wad-cutter round (a flaxen sabot) would take out the window a split second before the kill-shot-- no change in sight-picture, just the window blowing out, clean.
 
Now, here's the part BHO's "whiz kids" knew as well as the Navy hierarchy, including CO BAINBRIDGE and CO SEAL TEAM SIX. It's the law in Article 19 of Appendix L in the "Convention of the High Seas" that the Commanding Officer of a US Ship on the high seas is obligated to respond to distress signals from any flagged ship (US or otherwise), and protect the life and property thereof when deemed to be in IMMINENT DANGER. So, in the final analysis, it would be Captain Castellano call as to "Imminent Danger," and that he alone was obligated (duty bound) to act accordingly.
 
Got the picture?
 
After medically attending to the wounded pirate, and feeding him, come first light (from the east) on Easter Sunday morning and the pirates saw they were being towed further out to sea (instead of westward toward land), the wounded pirate demanded to be returned to the lifeboat. There would BE NO more negotiations-- and, the four Navy SEAL snipers "in the bubble" went "Unlock." The pirate holding Captain Philips raised the gun to his head, and IMMINENT DANGER was so observed and noted in the Log as CO BAINBRIDGE gave the classic order: WEAPONS RELEASED! I can hear the echo in my earpiece now, "On my count (from 8.5 seconds), 3, 2, 1, !" POP, BANG! Out went the window, followed by three simultaneous shots. The scoreboard flashed: "GAME OVER, GAME OVER-- NAVY 3, PIRATES 0!"
 
I hope you found the above informative as best I know it-- and, please excuse me in that after more than 50 years the Navy is still in me. I submit thatAMERICA is going to make a comeback, and more than likely it'll be on the back of our cherished youth serving with honor in Our military.
 
So, let's
Look Up, Get Up-- and, Never Give Up!


http://www.rense.com/general85/vers.htm

[NM_Shooter]

That was an interesting read, but you have to suspend belief when you get to this point:

"Shooting small arms from a ship is more of an accomplished "Art Form" than it is a practiced skill. When you are "in the bubble" and "in tune" with the harmonic motion you find, through practice, that you are "able to put three .308 slugs inside the head of a quarter at 100 meters, in day or night"

I call BS.  Overwhelming amounts!

[desimulacra]

"Yikes... a running animal in dense woods is an unethical shot."

Sigh. Respectfully I have done this many times. The trick is to spot an opening in the path of the animal you want to bring down then trigger the shot as it crosses thru that area that is clear of brush. Not an amateur shot but good to go for a trained woodsman, marksman ...

[NM_Shooter]

I too know of folks who take a running shot in the woods.  More often than not they are unsuccessful.  Lots of un-controlled variables go into hitting a bounding animal... especially one in trees or over rocks and brush.  Any mis-timing on the part of the hunter, or an animal that zigs instead of zags, and you can have a gut shot critter.  It is a possible shot, but not one I can take with a clear conscious.  I will attempt a shot at a running animal in the open, but not in dense woods.

Two years ago I found a gut shot 6 point muley on opening day in southern NM.  The carcass was still warm.  I gutted it, waited an hour for somebody to show up, and then put my tag on it and took it home after leaving a note at the gut pile.  I never got a call. 

My overwhelming opinion of hunters / shooters are that most of them imagine themselves to be much more skilled than they actually are, and they tend to embellish their accomplishments. They know very little about actual ballistics, practice very little, and don't seem to be interested in improving.  They pull out their rifle once a year, take a test shot or two, and consider themselves good to go.

I also know some very good marksmen who consistently make shots in the wind that are nothing short of amazing.  I competed in a regional high power shoot this spring in El Paso and I was scoring for Ron Zerr.  Gusting / swirling winds (gusts to 35mph) and his first shot at 600 yards was a 10.  His second was an X.  He shot a 197 out of 200 with only 3 nines for that stage. Scary.  (note.. for those of you who don't follow shooting sports, this was an across-the course match, all shot with iron sights.)

There was a post on here awhile ago (year maybe?) about a guy who was bragging that he could consistently make shots at 2000yards with a scoped .308.  I refrained comment.  Check your ballistic tables to see where the .308 goes sub-sonic. 

[pagan]

I worked with several snipers and one claimed to know a guy that could hit a target at 2000 yards with the .308. He said this guy was the best in his unit with most snipers having an effective range around 1200 to 1500 yards and the afore mentioned guy having an effective range over 1800 yards.. Of course, these are military snipers who will spend an entire day making a single shot over and over for thousands of rounds.

[MountainDon]

Most hunters do not get enough practice to become truly proficient at hitting a moving target at range. I believe most don't even practice shooting at a moving target at all, unless they are skeet shooting.

I believe the vast majority of hunters so not need to hunt to put food on the table. They shoot for sport. They and their families enjoy the meat, but nobody would starve if their hunt was unsuccessful.

I believe hunters in general respect the wildlife they hunt. Putting it all together, to me, means you do not attempt shots that are iffy, at excessive range or under poor visibility; shots where there is as much or more likelihood that the animal will not be put down cleanly.

I also believe there are a great number of shooters who are not at all as good as they believe they are.

[NM_Shooter]

I worked with several snipers and one claimed to know a guy that could hit a target at 2000 yards with the .308. He said this guy was the best in his unit with most snipers having an effective range around 1200 to 1500 yards and the afore mentioned guy having an effective range over 1800 yards.. Of course, these are military snipers who will spend an entire day making a single shot over and over for thousands of rounds.

So that exactly proves my point.  He either lied to you, or was lied to himself and did not know his craft.  The .308 (or 7.62 NATO, whatever) has an issue with velocity past 1400yards or so, usually shorter (1200 yds).  It comes down below the supersonic point, and when that shock wave catches up with the projectile, accuracy goes to hell, random things occur, and soon the bullet tumbles.  Nobody depends on the 7.62 past 1000M.  Shots have been made further, but can not be depended upon.

Do you want to guess at what the drop is for a .308 173 grain bullet (M118) with a MV of 2600fps out at 1400 yards?

Most folks don't have experience with medium to long range shooting, and therefore fall easy prey to urban legends.  Find a highpower club and go watch a shoot sometime.     

Check out the maximum effective range of the .50BMG... still short of 2000yards! 

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/3864/sniper.htm

[pagan]

NM,

Perhaps he exaggerated some, I don't know. He said they had practiced compensating for bullet trajectory by aiming high and they did this for an entire day, making the same shot, at the same range, over and over, so when they had to do something similar in the field they had experience. I haven't seen him in a few years so it's doubtful I'll ever be able to ask for further clarification.

The problem with maximum effective ranges is some people can, and do, exceed them. Remember Corporal R. Furlong who while in Afghanistan made a kill shot at 2,657 yards with a .50 BMG, far exceeding the stated maximum effective range. How much was skill and how much was luck is open to conjecture, but the point remains he made the shot.   

[Windpower]

The 300 mags (Win Or Weatherby)  would offer a significant increase in range

I know for a fact that the 300 Weatherby will blow away the 308 Win in accuracy and range (my off the shelf Remmington Classic shoots well under an inch at 200 yards)

downside is it really has some recoil but in a 14 pound sniper rifle that would not be a problem 

the 308 drops about 60inches at 500 yards while  the 300 wby drops about 30 inches and is still zipping at
2300 fps

[NM_Shooter]

Carlos Hathcock also made some very, very long kills with  a .50.  Most notably a courier VC on a bicycle.  But he did this by knowing exactly where the bike was going to be, and where he was going to shoot from.  He zeroed the .50 into a tree next to the bike path prior to the bike getting there. 

A .50 BMG has a ballistic coefficient of over 1.0.  It may be stable well beyond 2000 yards.  A .308 has issues beyond 1200 yards, and is not reliable.  First order approximation of drop using a ballistic calculator shows the drop for a .308 to be 1000 inches at 1500 yards.  (83 feet!!!) I can't find a calculator that will support 2000yards.  http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=/balcalc.ascx

Also.. the amount of drop change between 1475 and 1500 yards is over four feet.  What do you think the trajectory is going to be like at 2000Y?  That bullet is pretty much going to be dropping straight down.

The point that I am trying to make however, is that "hitting a target at 2000Y"  and "consistently hitting a target at 2000Y" are completely different. 

Give a million monkeys a million M24's over a million years, and probably one of them will hit a target at 2000 yards (and possibly write a Shakespeare play in the off-time).

I don't doubt that the military folks played around with way-out-of-range shooting.  But for them or anyone to represent that as serious training is ludicrous. 

You don't have to know if he exaggerated or not.  Don't let anyone promote BS crap that is easily discredited with a small amount of research.

P.S.  300 Mag is a great round!  338 Lapua is sweet too... and that is easily an 1800M round.