the mess in Eldorado, TX

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Since no one else has brought it up so far, what do you all think about the government raid on the FLDS group in Texas?  Not defending polygamy or pedophilia by any stretch of the imagination, I have a real problem with the fact that the women who left the compound with their children are now being separated from their children and the CPS says that it is not "customary" to leave the children in abuse cases with their parents.  I seriously doubt that most of those mothers were abusing their kids, and furthermore, there is no evidence that would convict most of them... they've not had a trial.  As much as I don't think a cultic environment is good for the kids, being forcibly removed from everything they've ever known and loved is probably far more traumatic.  Who is to say that the government couldn't step in and remove kids from any home or parent without evidence of abuse?  Furthermore, most research points to the fact that being with a parent who is less than perfect is still better for the kid in the long run than being shuffled through the foster care system, unless of course, there is real abuse going on.  Most of those women who left the compound with their kids probably really do want the best for their kids, and while they may not be perfect, I'm sure that they love their kids. 

[Sassy]

I agree with you HG!  It's sad that 1st the mothers of these children suffered sexual abuse & forced to marry the older men of this group & then became pregnant...  they were just children themselves when they were isolated from all outside influences & forced into polygamous marriages to these lecherous men.  Now, they not only get their children taken from them, their children are separated from them.  From my reading on foster care, it is not always the best & can be even worse adding to the trauma.

The gov't can be so stupid... & yes, that does bring up the subject of just when they can separate children from parents...  I've read where if the parents don't immunize their children, that can be considered child abuse & children taken away...  there's a new guildeline by the AMA that refusing the get your children immunized could constitute child abuse...  so, that could lead to taking children from parents & putting them in foster care. 

[NM_Shooter]

Well, not to defend big, stupid gov't....but I guess I don't have enough details.
 
From what I've read, the moms were either willing participants in providing their kids for underage marriage, or just had their children forced into it anyway.  A few moms said enough... and asked the state to evaluate after a chickenpox breakout.

Either one of these types of moms indicates to me that the mom probably is not a capable parent anyway.  I did read that the moms with younger kids were allowed to stay with them.  As much as I hate to agree with our gestapo government, I think that they probably did the right thing.  It does not sound as if this is a permanent situation, just until they can sort out what is going on, and which parents are capable of being sound custodians. 

The part that scares me is... who does that evaluation?    The poor kids are going to be traumatized because of seperation, but I can't help but wonder if this is a pay now or pay later situation.  If left with incapable parenting, it is better to figure that out now. 

This sort of reminds me of the Waco situation.  I'm glad it didn't spin into that. 

Regarding crummy parents, I heard on the radio yesterday that there was a domestic disturbance that was the result of two parents arguing over which street gang their 4yr old kid should join.  Yikes.  Poor kid!

[StinkerBell]

This is one of those topics I am going to try to be very careful. Cause I do believe it is very sensitive.
I am of mixed opinion on this. Now what opened this can of worms is the fact 911 (or some authority) got a call from a girl in harms way.
This was the door opener for the government to step in. I am sure they had their eye on this compound but had no legal standing to enter until this call came. I am very protective of my Religious belief. So with that I feel the same need to protect others of their religious belief. But there is this issue with the fact the LDS church them self does not practice polygmy . Second I believe (could be wrong here) that even in the Mormon faith they have the blessing of free will. Thus Free Will has not been given to these young girls. So I really think that this is not a religion this is a cult.


As far as the immunization issue being an issue of child abuse. I really want to see the government try that. I mean they can try but I do not believe they will win. Then they would have to go into communities like the Amish.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

I'm not sure if mainstream Mormons really believe in free will either, though.  Maybe in some things.  I had a roommate who was Mormon, and when her parents decided that she was being too influenced by those outside the Mormon church, they literally sent her brother to kidnap her.  He sent her to the store with his friend to get groceries because he was allegedly going to take her camping for the weekend.  While she was gone to the store, he packed up all her stuff and loaded it in his car, and then forcibly took her back home.  Her family wouldn't let her read my letters and wouldn't let her contact me at all.  Six months later I get a call from the LDS visitor center in LA, and they got my contact info from my old roommate, who is now serving her mission there in LA and they want to know if they can send some mormon missionaries to my house to talk to me.  I asked them if I could talk to my roommate, and they adamantly refused to allow her to talk to me, so I told them they could keep their missionaries if they wouldn't allow her to talk to me... after all, I argued, she knows me better than any of them and would probably make the best "missionary" to me.  They wouldn't budge.

I don't think mainstream LDS practices polygamy or pedophilia as a rule. 

Also, if the conditions inside the FLDS compound in Texas are really as bad as the media makes it sound, the women in question are probably as much in need of protection as are the kids.  If the abuse allegations are true, then they would probably face further abuse if they return to the compound for leaving in the first place, though I think that the reason they left was the instinct to protect their own kids.  I feel for them... as a mom, I can't imagine the government stepping in and telling me they were taking my kids. 

[MountainDon]

I believe CPS (CYFD in NM) walks a fine line at times. They're damned if they do something and damned if they don't. I'll also say that those departments can be heavy handed at times.

The former leader of that group, Warren S Jeffs, is in jail for crimes including sexual conduct with minors, from a case related to his alleged arrangement of extralegal marriages between his adult male followers and underage girls. I have little doubt that the same thing was going on in the TX FLDS compound.

I've not studied Mormonism, but we have neighbors and friends who are Mormons. I have traveled (4X4 backcountry around UT) with a number of Mormons. They all seem to be pretty normal family oriented people. Like any group there are bound to be some bad apples, but I'd say the run-of-the-mill mainstream Mormon is very much like most other folks. I don't condemn them or any other group simply on the actions of one or two. However, the history of FLDS leads me to believe there is evil being perpetrated on innocent people within their so-called church. If anyone is restrained from exercising their personal freedom by the hierarchy of a so-called religious group they belong to, in my mind that organization is then a cult. It doesn't matter if they originally joined willingly or if they were born into the group.

I believe it is possible to influence, brainwash if you will, people to your way of thinking if you are offering something they are seeking, something they lack, neded, etc. A normal mainstream Christian church does that on some level. Some people resist and question better than others. I believe that all the children and the women in FLDS have been influenced and coerced into virtual slavery. The same might be said of some of the men; they've been made to believe the FLDS way is the correct way, and so go on perpetuating the misery. So, at the present I'd say that none of the women or men are proper mothers and fathers. I don't believe that should be a permanent thing, but somebody's got a big job there, trying to "normalize" the women and children.

[NM_Shooter]

Stinker, I think you hit the nail on the head with the "free will" statement.  I think that should be the standard litmus test to discern religion from cult. 

I work with several folks who are LDS, and I have friends as well who are LDS.  I have to say that I would have any of them as neighbors in a heartbeat.  I do notice that the women tend to be a little more on the quiet side (I was not going to use the word "subservient" but there it is).  They are family oriented, church oriented, and community oriented.  I have a lot of respect for the way they live their lives. 

I suspect that there are always fringe folks that can make any group look awful.  As a Catholic, we have our share.

[StinkerBell]

I am a Christian, my brother is a Mormon who lives in Provo. I have always been treated so wonderfully when I go for a visit. We have an agreement. I do not beat him with my bible he doesn't slap me back with his. Although I do not agree with his choice I respect his free will.
I also know from that part of the family how the woman folk feel about what the FLDS folks. It ain't nice. And yes I agree there are always some nuts in any group.

Because of my faith I am very cautious about what the police did. But in this case I feel that the were legally right. Now how they proceed in this matter is another can of worms.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Well, my main problem is separating the moms from the kids.  After all, those moms left willingly with their kids, and I doubt that they're without supervision in the shelter they're in.  I've known of drug addicts and alcoholics who are still allowed supervised (and at times even unsupervised) visitation rights.  Yes, I agree with Don, too that the CPS has a really tough job...  I just don't think there was justification to take the kids away from their moms.... even though I do think that the FLDS is a cult, by any standard.  I don't think the moms are abusing them physically or sexually (especially since they are under such scrutiny right now) and though they can still be engaged in brainwashing the kids to expect the norms for their cult, there is no way they can force an underage girl to marry right at the moment.  Couldn't they have left one parent with the child at least for the time being?  Did they really htink it was necessary to tear the kids' whole world apart?

[StinkerBell]

I see your point HT. That is that can of worms.
I am not sure however it is handled that something wrong will happen. I see your point and I see the point that these moms are complicit with what has been happening at that compound.

[ScottA]

The biggest problem I have with this deal is the blanket charges being leveled against every single member of that church without any proof whatsoever. It would be no different if they took every kid in a small town because one citizen was accused of a crime. I feel every single one of these parents needs their own seperate trial. To lump them all together because the where members of the same church is insane. I would have filed a multi million dollar lawsuit the next day against every single agency involved. BTW I'm a member of the LDS church. I haven't been active in over 10 years and don't plan to be in the future. It is a a cult of sorts but then again so are alot of other churches.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Good point, Scott.  What if they decided to take all the Baptist and Pentecostal kids away from their parents because the church teaches that homosexuality is a sin and that might constitute so-called "hate-speech" and teaching "intolerance" to the kids?  The state of TX is saying they are justified because abused kids are more likely to tell the truth when they are not with their parents. Fine.  So be it.  Take the kids away for questioning, but to totally take them away from their parents with no if or when on when they will see them again... well, the kids are going to say whatever they think will get them back to mom.  These kids already have NO REASON to trust the adults questioning them... now they have even less reason to trust them.  While I am all for investigating every single one of the parents in the compound, and have no doubt that there was probably abuse going on, I think that they ought to treat every single one of them as individuals.  It was one girl alleging abuse, and while there are probably more cases than that, to basically take away a whole town's worth of kids without proof is not justifiable.

But like Stink said, no matter how it was handled, I think there'd be something to complain about.

[ScottA]

Thats just it HG they aren't treating them as individuals. The judge is going to hear the case like a class action suit. The fate of all will be decided in one hearing.

[gandalfthegrey]

I am totally disterbed with this.  I feel so sorry for the mothers and the children in this mess.

As it first came out I was for the initial try to find the girl.  Now it is bieng said that there was no call. 

I can only hope that tgis ws not just an over zealous Sheriff trying to get rid of the FDLS in his county.  That would be a real pity.

[MountainDon]

Escape  by Carolyn Jessop

[glenn kangiser]

I last heard the call may have been 10 years ago -- if ever.

The state is taking DNA from the kids and who knows -- maybe they will do an experimental chip program on them.  My buddy thinks so.

[MountainDon]

Well, one thing the DNA may show is what underage girls have given birth, fathered by old men. It's illegal and immoral for adults to take advantage of children.  I believe if it can be proved, the men responsible should pay.

I believe virtually nobody caught in that trap of a cult has a normal sense of what is right and wrong. Left to their own they would continue to breed and brainwash future generations of victims.

[benevolance]

no kid needs to be pregnant at the age of 13...

So if that is true something needed to be done...

But I mean we have rights and those people have rights.. they have to be proven guilty before we go in take the kids arrest them... go onto their land and forcefully remove them...

A lot of time if a group of people live on their own away from society not doing as they are told Then the government will say they are evil and that they need to be stopped... I am not big on the government just going where they want when they want and doing what they want...

i wonder what the excuse would be if a group of people got together and decided to live in a commune away from government and they did not have irregular sexual experiences... or use drugs... they just refused to be cowed by government...

I wonder what the excuse would be then to go onto their land against their will with no right to remove them and eliminate any who opposed them...

[glenn kangiser]

Try this on for size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

[benevolance]

Glenn it is stuff like that, which scares me truly...It has always been my dream to live out in the woods away from people... But no matter what you do they will come for you it seems...

Luckily for me I have nothing to do with guns....It was stupid for the guy to sell an illegal gun to someone he did not personally know

[MountainDon]

The first stupid thing Weaver did was shortening the barrel length of a shotgun to under 18" without paying the ATF fee.

That doesn't make anything else necessarily correct, but shorter than legal (without special paperwork and fees) length shotgun (18") or rifle (16") will get anyone in trouble every time. Period.

Same thing for having sex with under age children.

[ScottA]

Child protective services in Texas has a long history of abusing the rights of parents and of false accusations. I know 2 different families that where investigated based on half truths and assumtions with no proof whatsoever. One was a mother who was unloading groceries from the car when her 3 year old wandered off. She called 911 imedeatly and the child was found playing in a yard nearby within a few minutes. She is a registered nurse who works in labor and delivery. The investigation nearly cost her job. The other was a little girl who fell on the front stairs and brusied her leg. Her teacher saw the bruise and called CPS. The CPS invesigator practicaly accused the father of lying when he told them what happened. No proof at all but they where convinced the child had been abused. Stuff happens to even the best parents. For the government to accuse people of child abuse for every little thing is nuts.

I know of an amish family here in OK that was accused of child abuse because they wouldn't let their children watch TV or go to the movies. They where eventualy vendicated but not before they had their home searched several times without warning.

Maybe those kids in the FLDS church did need help, maybe they didn't. But without any proof the government had no cause to take them. A 911 call by one person is not just cause to take 400+ kids from their parents.

[ScottA]

The first stupid thing Weaver did was shortening the barrel length of a shotgun to under 18" without paying the ATF fee.

Never mind that it was a government agent who talked him into doing it. Yes he broke the law. I agree with that. But the FBI had no right to shoot his wife and son. His son was shot in the back by the way while running away. And his wife was killed while holding a baby in her arms.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

I know of an amish family here in OK that was accused of child abuse because they wouldn't let their children watch TV or go to the movies. They where eventualy vendicated but not before they had their home searched several times without warning.

Maybe those kids in the FLDS church did need help, maybe they didn't. But without any proof the government had no cause to take them. A 911 call by one person is not just cause to take 400+ kids from their parents.

I think there are a lot of cases like that, Scott.  I had a person threaten to call Child Protective Services because of a birthmark on my daughter's back... she has a "mongolian spot" on her rear and lower back... and it does look just like a bruise.  It has lightened up over the years (now that she is 5) but still looks like a bruise.  When she was a baby, her doctor told me very strongly to make sure that if I ever took her to an ER or another doctor to BE SURE to tell the doctor that her dad is Asian and that it is a birthmark and not a beating.  I've also had people make the assumption that if you are homeschooling your kids, you are hiding abuse...(one of them is the same woman who'd let her own son stay plugged into electronic devices all day with no monitoring whatsoever.... and she worries that my kids won't be properly "socialized"!) 

I think that there was certainly reason to investigate the parents, but to take that many kids from their families with no evidence of abuse seems like the worst of many options.  For one, it presents a logistical nightmare.  Secondly, it strains an already overworked child welfare system.  Third, it reinforces what the kids have probably already learned about the "outside world" being evil.  If they have evidence of either physical or sexual abuse, then by all means the kids need to be removed from the home, but they just pulled hundreds of families apart without having all the evidence.

My grandma was raised Freewill Holiness and told me when I was five that I'd probably go to hell for wearing earrings and jeans.  Does stuff like that constitute abuse?  If so, I bet that 99% (if not 100%) of us on these forums could claim we'd been abused.  My freedom of speech was limited because I wasn't allowed to say words like "stupid", "hate", and "gosh" (not to mention anything typically thought of as profanity.)  Does that constitute abuse?  Now, rape of kids and physical beatings are surely abusive, but my problem comes with them just applying the one supposed call for help to a whole big group of kids and parents without investigating first.  Who's to say that CPS couldn't bust down my door for "brainwashing" my kids to learn scripture or for not allowing them to say "stupid"?  Or for that matter, for teaching them about creationism as opposed to Darwinism?  Yes, if the TX CPS found young girls who were pregnant, then they had reason to take them from the home, or if they found evidence that the kids had been abused, or if any of the kids asked for help...  certainly, if they had other evidence against specific parents, then it is justified in those cases. 

I know, it's a can of worms....

[benevolance]

Scott

I could not agree with you more...They had no right to shoot the 14 year old boy with no record and they had no warrant for him... likewise the mother holding a baby...

The real injustice is that the sniper who killed those people on purpose did not get the death penalty...I bet he did not even go to jail for murdering those two innocent people