Building departments

[Drew]

I'm not trying to start a rant, though I am sure capable of it today.   

I need to work on my "Calling the Building Department" skills, and maybe you folks have some pointers.  I understand that our inspection and permitting process is designed to make our buildings safe.  However, I am sure there is a better way of getting accurate advice and getting through the red tape.

For example, I once called to see what I needed for my 18'x24' shed.  They wanted engineered plans and a grand or so for an ag permit.  When I asked politely, "Um, for a shed?" they corrected the advice and I only had to pay $191.

Today I asked about yurts.  They want permits for that.  $2,300 to permit it residential.  It's a tent.  The foolish platform is even temporary.

So hit me, folks, I can take it.  How can I do this right (I don't like playing fast and loose) and ask the right questions?  What did you do right?  What was the dumbest thing an owner/builder did you ever heard of?

PS:  Tomorrow they switch over to the International Building Code.  Should I sell my place now?   

[glenn kangiser]

First thing, Drew, you need to adjust your thinking.

While they are supposedly for safety -they do set a minimum standard to build to - you can probably do better than that but may not be allowed to. In my opinion, the major function of the permit process is to assure government control over you and to insure that all the interested agencies get to tax you for their portion of your paycheck or property.

Safety? hmm ... maybe but I can show you a ton of places that had permits, failed in a snow storm (DMV shed -would have been engineered also -failed with 9 inches of snow), 4 year old house -- code approved wiring caught fire and burned it down.

Old houses have been standing for hundreds of years built by master craftsmen.  They didn't need a building and safety department.  Some of the new complex engineered structures may benefit.  Inspection is nominal only in many cases.  Many times on my jobs the inspectors don't even walk in to look at the project -- others are the inspectors from hell.  Many of them don't even know what they want themselves -- it's many times a power trip -- play along with them -- pretend they are doing the most important part of the project -- you'll get along well with them.

Just be sure to pay all the fees and taxes -- in reality that is the most important part.

Oh -- and be sure to ask about the guarantee they give you --- for all the money you pay them they should guarantee there will be no problems, right? hmm

[emcvay]

This is a sore spot for me.  For one, I live in WA and while it might not be as bad as Cali, it's not too much better I'll warrant.

I understand the concern for fire code etc within city limits, I'll even except that Cities should have that right but out in a rural area on several acres where you can really only hurt yourself I'd think that in the land of the free and the home of the brave you'd be free enough to do just that if you're actually brave enough.

I have a well I've been drinking from, it's 205 feet deep and while I was told I had to have it inspected I was also told not to worry becuase it's deep enough that it won't be contaminated.  So let me get this straight, I have to pay you to tell me it's safe to drink the water I already know it's safe to drink?

I asked if I could have a private company do the testing and was told no.  Huh?  Why not?  I trust them after all -- but I also trust that I am not sick.

So, I have to put in a septic even though I'm not going to use it.  I can put in a privy if it's more then 100 feet from the well but they won't allow it -- though there are regs for it -- hmmm.....I also have to have a grey water drain field and tank by state law but they've superceeded that and decided that since I can put a grey water system in they will allow me to do that as long as it is exactly constructed just like a 2 bedroom home septic system - complete....nice.

Oh ya, and if I pay the money for all of this I can have the privilege of paying an additional $600 or more so they can tell me that yes, the little house plans are ok and yes, the house is fine when I'm done -- which I already know and knew thanks.

Oh and by the way, no they don't like double 2x4 walls they prefer 2x6 and even though it's a cabin it cannot have 2x4 walls...

But I can build a deck, put two 10x12 buildings on either side of it and don't need a permit for that.

On a side note, my neighbor (about a mile away by road) told me he's been there 30 years, never permitted anything, and they leave him alone....though they raise his land taxes each time he improves it.

Nice.

Being honest is tiring.  It's time for these folks to realize that we do in fact, live in America and as long as we're not harming our neighbors (which they cannot find unless we do and they prove us guilty of it) then they need to leave us alone.  Period!

[southernsis]

That is why I like living where I live, there are no codes or building permits. All they want is if you are going to put in a septic system to do a perk test.

[peternap]

Being honest is tiring.  It's time for these folks to realize that we do in fact, live in America and as long as we're not harming our neighbors (which they cannot find unless we do and they prove us guilty of it) then they need to leave us alone.  Period!

You just stated 80% of why Old Virginia exits.

[Squirl]

Being an owner/builder I hate having to comply with building codes.  They are written by industries and for industries.  That being said, I can see a benefit.  I would say almost 95-98% of the people in this country don't build there own houses and they are built by many unscrupulous people who would cut a corner if they could for profit.  Nobody would know the difference without ripping the walls off.  I have worked on a lot of houses that had things falling apart because they were never built to code to begin with.

I will state right off that I am not a people person. It is difficult for me to not fight something when challenged. I still try other ways even against my nature.  I have found that bureaucrats know their way around a bureaucracy.  A little "bribery" can go a long way.  Now I am not promoting graft of public officials, but showing up with some sweets or food on a non busy day can get a lot of attention and may get some great advice on how to navigate the system.  It can be a lot cheaper than a $2300 permit.  Doing a little political work or contributing to campaigns can get some attention too.  Sometimes just going to talk to a local representative who has control over the bureaucracy of the building department can get some cooperation.  Just be careful going over someone's head can get backlash.

[peternap]

This thread works into a pre General Assembly season, story I've been working on. It follows Old Va's "we owm the land, we make the rules" format.
In some Virginia localities the police are even using building inspectors to get around search warrants.

I'd like permission to quote (without names ) some of the posts on this thread. I of course need John's permission also.
Private Property Right is something we consider a priority and lobby for changes every year.

[emcvay]

Quote away!

[ScottA]

I agree with the comments above about owner/builders being able to do what they want but here's the rub. I've been working on a remodle the past couple of weeks. The house was built 30 years ago by an owner builder. None of the plumbing is even close to code. It's not even close to workable. It's a total disaster. The lady who bought this house had no way of knowing any of this and now she is paying alot of money to fix the problems. So the issue comes down to this: If a house can be sold in the future there needs to be some assurance that it is built reasonably correct. I hate building departments as much as anyone but there does need to be some level of enfocment but probly not to the extreams some areas have. Further goverment bodies should not be charging so much for permits in undeveloped areas. I can see charging for infustructure in a city but not out in BFE.

[MountainDon]

Scott's hit the nail right smack dab on the head!  Every building probably will be sold at some time in the future and those future purchasers should be able to assume that the basic structure and it's working parts are built to some standard. That requires a system of permits and inspections. It that a guarantee there will be no problems? Of course not. But it's better than finding things that are possibly dangerous at some point down the road.

Permit fees are another matter. I'm aghast at the fees being charged in many places. That's only going to get worse as the codes begin to require things like single family residential fire suppression sprinkler systems.

[peternap]

Scott's hit the nail right smack dab on the head!  Every building probably will be sold at some time in the future and those future purchasers should be able to assume that the basic structure and it's working parts are built to some standard. That requires a system of permits and inspections. It that a guarantee there will be no problems? Of course not. But it's better than finding things that are possibly dangerous at some point down the road.

Permit fees are another matter. I'm aghast at the fees being charged in many places. That's only going to get worse as the codes begin to require things like single family residential fire suppression sprinkler systems.

I agree and disagree with you both.
Scott has a valid point. BUT...In Virginia, it can't be sold as a residence without a certificate of occupancy. The simple solution to that is change the law to allow owner/builder occupancy without permits or certificates, but in order to sell it, it needs to be inspected and a certificate issued.

[MountainDon]

Depending on how well the county keeps it records, that could work. I have seen the NM system trip over itself.    Or would the onus on keeping track of the CO be on the owner/builder?

[peternap]

I'd put it on the owner/builder and record it with the deed. NO Certificate, no salable residence.

[John Raabe]

Peternap: You have my permission to quote from these forum postings and a link or mention of the forum address would be appreciated. You may want to ask the specific individuals if they want attribution.

Personally, I think an owner-builder is wise to build to structural and safety codes even in areas where permits are not required. A review of your plans or work by a professional builder, electrician or plumber is cheap insurance that will payback several times when the property goes to another owner. In some cases it can save your life.

Permitting fees and expensive or restrictive code interpretations can be subject to local political forces, especially in tough economic times when other revenue sources are running dry. This is a separate issue from tapping into the stored experience of codes in building solid, safe buildings.

[emcvay]

I don't beleive in protectionism...so I disagree with most of you it seems.

I beleive that provided I do not live in town (where different issues can be a factor -- like fires etc) then what I do is my business and what I sell is too (provided it is not illegal -- like drugs).  The government has no business telling me what private property I own I can sell or how provided I sell it to a private citizen.

Does this mean buyer beware?  Damn straight.

My brother had his house inspected, went through all the 'official' channels...in the end it meant nothing and after THOUSANDS making the home safe guess what?  No recourse, the inspector is state protected.

it's worthless feelgood protectionist nonsense.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm getting frustrated with this "we have to make sure you are safe in everything you do".

Is it important to build your cabin/home safely?  Yes of course!!!  I designed and built my addition to state codes and it not only passed but is an excellent addition...so why did I buy Little House Plans?  Becuase I wanted to be sure I had a good foundation to build from.  I wanted a set of plans I could trust.  If I am wrong it's my fault and only my fault.  If I fail to build correctly it's my fault and only my fault and if I am immoral and sell and improperly built house to you its your fault and only your fault for buying it.

It's like daycare.  I have no problem with state licensing as long as it is not mandatory.  Why?  Because I've yet to see a state do something better then private industry can and does.  So no thinks, I'd rather take my kids to a home daycare I've researched and trust and take my chances -- chances are they are safer.

Just as I'd rather go to a trusted builder that I know then one that is strictly by the state book...maybe it's just me.  But I do not believe in big government and this is just one example of how it creeps into our lives every day.

Erik

[rwanders]

Two years ago, I considered buying a completed, very nice cabin-----It included a well & septic system---unfortunately, the owner/builder had skipped the inspection and certification of the septic system so no one would finance the cabin unless he had the system dug up and certified ----an additional cost of about $4000---the engineer who had designed the system for him would have done the in-process inspections and provided the certificate for $500 if the owner had not decided to "save $500".  I decided that if he was that penny wise and pound foolish, I lacked confidence in all the hidden parts of the cabin also.  

Built my own with help from professionals where appropriate to ensure good outcome.

[emcvay]

Two years ago, I considered buying a completed, very nice cabin-----It included a well & septic system---unfortunately, the owner/builder had skipped the inspection and certification of the septic system so no one would finance the cabin unless he had the system dug up and certified ----an additional cost of about $4000---the engineer who had designed the system for him would have done the in-process inspections and provided the certificate for $500 if the owner had not decided to "save $500".  I decided that if he was that penny wise and pound foolish, I lacked confidence in all the hidden parts of the cabin also.  

Built my own with help from professionals where appropriate to ensure good outcome.

However, I could spend $8000 putting in a septic system on my piece only to have it go sour and get plugged from lack of use and I would STILL have to spend that money to fix it before you bought it.

Or you'd buy it becuase you would assume that since it was inspected it was ok and then you'd have to pay the $4000+ to fix it.

The inspection means nothing -- that's my point -- and most states don't even protect you in case the inspector lied to you.

[emcvay]

I should clerify though, that I am not talking about building a primary residence.  I'm talking about a cabin in the woods that's roughly 400 square feet and has no utilities.  It's off the grid all the way and will see only very light use (mostly weekend use with maybe two weeks of use in hunting season and a week or two in the spring/fall).

A small 55 gallon grey water system will do quite well for the application just as a composter or privy will and neither will harm a well that's more then 100 feet away (actually it's about 180 feet).

The cows walk by and crap on the ground directly above the well and the state has no issue with that what-so-ever.  SO why is it important to force me to put in a septic system I won't need or use?  Why make me install 6" walls if I don't want them? (I do by the way) and why should I set up a septic for just grey water when I won't utilize it at all?

Or build foundation walls more then 24" deep for something so light and small that will see very light use anyway.

I can put in a barn without a permit.  I can build sheds and various out buildings the same.  A shop, no problem.  No permit.

the issue is control.  They want to make the decisions for me that I can make for myself as a free man.  Either I am free or I'm not -- America, it's time to make that decision I guess.

[Squirl]

PA has this built into the code.  It is the "camp" exception.  You can get a permit to build what ever you want as a camp and the only code you have to follow is the septic code.  The camp exemption requires you to have another residence and forever bars someone from getting a Certificate of Occupancy or an address for it.  When it is sold, it is sold as a camp and has this permanently attached to it. I do fully agree with septic compliance.  I disagree with the your septic assessment.  A poorly designed, built, or placed septic system can do a lot of damage, even over a fairly large area.  It is not only about protecting you from yourself, it is also about protecting others from you or you from others.

[emcvay]

PA has this built into the code.  It is the "camp" exception.  You can get a permit to build what ever you want as a camp and the only code you have to follow is the septic code.  The camp exemption requires you to have another residence and forever bars someone from getting a Certificate of Occupancy or an address for it.  When it is sold, it is sold as a camp and has this permanently attached to it. I do fully agree with septic compliance.  I disagree with the your septic assessment.  A poorly designed, built, or placed septic system can do a lot of damage, even over a fairly large area.  It is not only about protecting you from yourself, it is also about protecting others from you or you from others.

What do you disagree with?  If I spend top money to install a septic system I have no need for and do not use, it will go sour and need to be fixed in a few years.  Period.

As for protecting others, I suggest you ban alcohol as a start then.  And while you are at it, ban cars too.  In fact, ban industry.  It's really quite simple:  innocent until proven guilty.

If you make a law that says "no one shall cause sewage to seep, drain or otherwise contaminate any water source" and I then do so you can prosecute me.  Until then, leave me alone.

But let me ask you this:  if I intend to make use of a composting toilet with a privy backup (both are legal to have here) and I install both within the letter of the law (and indeed perhaps better then that) and I do not use the property for anything other then short visits and install a grey water system to handle the limited grey water I will produce and I use it for the recognized and legal purpose of watering trees then what is the problem?

You know what the county says?  Well what if someone buys your land and wants to live there? 

Stupid.  It's their problem if they buy it and want to live there and it's their responsibility.

The previous owner did not install septic for me after all. 

Protectionism is just that, no other way to look at it and insisting that I do this is nothing more then the government making unnecessary rules and regulations for the sole purpose of raising taxes and instituting control. 

Lastly, I can legally put a camper, camper trailer, tent etc on the property and am not required to do ANYTHING else -- even if I live in the camper.  What's the difference?

I have both a camper and a trailer on the land and the two combined have nearly the same living space as the cabin I plan to build.  I can also build farm 'out buildings' without permit and can build sheds galore without restriction....but as soon as I say "this is a cabin" the rules change.

Nonsense.

[Virginia Gent]

The house was built 30 years ago by an owner builder. None of the plumbing is even close to code. It's not even close to workable. It's a total disaster.

There was no standardized coding 30 years ago. Today, I believe, only the ICC produces code books for states/counties/cities at choose to adopt. Codes (building) only started getting real use in the late 70s (I believe) and even then, most counties/cities/states didn't really care. Not until the 90s did all those localities really start enforcing and enacting building codes.

I'm in the same boat with OlJarhead. My teacher and I have some lively discussions in class about codes. I'm one semester away from a degree in Fire Science and I'm currently applying to both fire departments as well as private industries here in Virginia that install & design fire protection systems for every type of occupancy. I'm a Libertarian above all else and what I do on my land is my business. Building my own house is my business, no one else. Buyer Beware. I'm against building & fire codes. Let me rephrase, I'm against forced codes. I think having a set of standards for all is great and only a fool would aim his sights lower than a set of codes that have the benefit of knowledge behind them. One caveat though. Codes are expensive, especially when you start stacking them on. What if I want to build a small, temporary shelter for myself, because I'm poor or not well off, and I don't have the money to build a small 500 sq. ft. home to all these ludicrous codes when it is only going to house myself for a little bit, so that I can save money and get a proper house. It's asinine that we would restrict people like that. Perhaps I was just born in the wrong century or something, I dunno. My fiancee tells me I was born 150 years too late, and I'm inclined to agree with her. Just my .02 ramble. Sorry if that wasn't very coherent 

[emcvay]

Very cohernant.  No worries.

I too am a Libertarian (at heart and mind though I am an independent politically) and I'm tired of the protectionism we face.

Today, the rich can hunt, the poor cannot -- sound like Robinhood?  It's true.  To hunt Deer and Elk and be legal as well as be able to shoot Grouse and other small game costs at least $90 per year and you are limitted heavily.  This doesn't count any other cost.  Now, if you're poor you really can't afford that...heck I make a very good income and that's something I fight with.  Why?  It's the King's forest I guess.

So, if I lose everything but still have my land I can't just put up a shed and live there until I can get the funds together to build a nicer place?  Why not?  becuase I am not rich enough?  Gee thanks

So, only the government can provide poor folks housing then?  Is that it?  What if I don't what thier help?  What if I feel my trailer is fine?

Oh wait, I can live in my trailer all I want but if I build a cabin of the same size I get fined?  What gives?

The bottom line?  Permitting has a place but not out in the country on 20 acres.  Period.

In city/town environments I do understand some codes and permits.  After all, anyone who studied hystory knows the great fire of London was caused by homes being built poorly and too close together right?  (maybe not but the point is the same).

Anyway, there are times and places for things...in the middle of the forest where cows are crapping on everything freely I'm thinking one small cabin with a composting toilette does not need a septic tank.

Period.

[Virginia Gent]

Actually the London fire of 1666 was caused by the houses being built of wood and having thatched roofs. I don't think it was so much poor construction as it was do to the building material and how closely they were built. That is actually where the word "Curfew" originates from. The fire started because people would leave fires burning in their fireplaces & hearths. After the fire, they instituted a 'Coverfue' in Latin or, in Middle English at that time, 'Curveu' ... either way they both translate as "Cover Fire". After a certain time it was illegal to leave a fire going. Of course because of the extensive damage, they started a new building code, that buildings in the city had to be made of stone, in order to help prevent the future spread of fire.

[ScottA]

There was no standardized coding 30 years ago. Today, I believe, only the ICC produces code books for states/counties/cities at choose to adopt. Codes (building) only started getting real use in the late 70s (I believe) and even then, most counties/cities/states didn't really care. Not until the 90s did all those localities really start enforcing and enacting building codes.

True but basic plumbing practices have been known of over 100 years and have not changed all that much over the years. The codes where based on those basic practices in the first place. All I'm saying is that if you can sell a house it should be built to a basic standard of safety and utility. If there was a no sell law for owner built houses that are built substandard then fine do what you want. I also agree that alot of the inspected homes are built substandard. That's not the fault of the codes but that of the profiteers than squeeze the profits at the expense of quality. Which should also be illegal.

[Don_P]

I can remember pulling a wall apart I had covered after getting tired of waiting for a delayed inspector 40 years ago. My Dad's comment was, as usual when I had done something stupid, "Guess you won't be doing that again"  

The code we were operating under in the 60's when I first started being cognizant of and studying it was the NC version of the SBCCI. (Dad would send me out to the truck for the "bible" and the "funny papers", the codebook and the plans). More than once on the trip home he would have me open the book and study up on the mistake of the day. The SBCCI, Southern Building Code Conference codes were from NC south. Second year high school drafting was to design a house. There were codebooks in the classroom, a set of Sweet's files, and in order to pass it had to pass code and work.

VA and north was CABO and the west was under the Uniform or UBC code. Do not mistake lack of enforcement for lack of law, there may not be a sheriff in town but there is and has been for quite some time, law on the books. In the mid 90's those 3 model codes joined to become the ICC. One thing that came out of that marriage was that an inspectors certs follow him from state to state. My contractor's license however does not, I have to be tested in each state I want to build in even though they almost all operate under the same model code (that is another rant).

The first building codes were part of the first codified (written, standardized) laws, "The Code of Hammurabi" king of Ur, predates the Old Testament. This is where the OT "an eye for an eye" comes from. There are about a dozen building related codes in his standardized laws. He didn't believe in "caveat emptor". One section that sticks in my mind stated that if I build a house for a man and it falls down and kills him, I die. If it kills his son, my son dies. His slave, my slave. No deaths, I rebuild it out of my purse.

We have had, and do have, horrific fires in rural areas. We have a less than proud history of people poisoning their land and leaving it to harm others. Laws are not written by some dark force to exert control over you, they are insisted upon by a harmed neighbor somewhere. I don't like many of them but I do see that WE, the government of the people, have agreed upon it. It is your option to convince the majority that WE need to change those rules.