How will the end come

[Drew]

I also picked up "Atlas Shrugged" but set it down in favor of other stuff that also burns my stomach.  Looks like I set it down too soon.

I work in IT in the San Francisco Bay Area.  Sometimes on my way out of yet another meeting I think how one not-inconceivable catastrophe would make everything we are doing here meaningless.  I worry that the people buying too much house today will want my 401(k) tomorrow.

Making more and saving more doesn't seem to be the answer, though not saving is an even worse solution.  My savings are in US dollars (which are valued on a process outside my control) in US financial institutions, which can receive new instructions at any time.  Cap the interest rate.  New tax.  "Wealth" assessment. 

For the record, I am not a rich man.  I'm just a going concern.

Henry Ford said, "If money is your hope for independence you will never have it. The only real security that a man will have in this world is a reserve of knowledge, experience, and ability."  I think that this, along with reducing my cost basis, is the way to a safer (not safe - never happen) footing.  We are learning to build our own house which we will own outright and know how to fix.  We volunteer at a CSA farm so that we can learn to grow our own clean food.  I've got a list of skills I am working up to take care of ourselves or trade with other folks.

In all likelihood the end will happen without us noticing and we'll only figure it out much later when the wave comes to our neighborhood.

[peternap]

I have offended anyone I apologize.

I'm certainly offended Des

I know how you feel. You do know that you don't have to retire don't you.
I'm going through the same thing. My business has been falling off for a couple of years. This year I made ten times more playing in the stock market part time, than I did working full time. That isn't the answer because it can lose more than I made with one poor move.

I have for years, built muzzle loading rifles, canes, knives and hatchets/hawks. I may just close the company and do this for income. I have money saved and investments.....but not enough to retire on and insure my wife is comfortable after I meet my reward....so I'll need to do something. The burb house is paid for, barn house is paid for, farm paid for, cars, truck, etc all paid for, so I don't have to make a lot of money.

I want to farm more on a small, low overhead basis.

There are lots of things you can do. That's one of the GREAT things about being skilled. You have options. Don't just stop. Slow down and do some other things you want to try. Have some fun...go through another childhood

[desdawg]

I do have a few other irons in the fire. If you corkscrew your way through AZ starting in Nogales and ending in the NW part of the state you can drive by 60+ properties that either have my name or one of my LLC's name on them. I don't lack for something to do. But the excavating business was my bread & butter. The items I listed were just some basic overhead items that I paid every year. And that incomplete list amounted to quite a few dollars that have been removed from the economy. If there are more people like me across the country imagine the ripple effect that impact has overall. So when I say the only ballot I ever get to cast that really has an affect is when I sit down at my desk and write a check or don't sit down and don't write a check that is what I am talking about. When I vote in a presidential election my vote gets lost in some electoral college somewhere and it really isn't my vote at all. So maybe that is where we are missing the boat. We can vote better from home than we can in any ballot box. Of course that would require a unified effort that we only have in times of crisis. So when I ask who has the strength of their convictions that is what I am really asking about.
When I talk about the Robert Redford character Jeremiah Johnson saying "I've been to a town" I laugh because I too have been to a town. While I was there I was the Mayor for nearly four years. It was a small town in Colorado, no big deal. The point is when I see something I don't like I look for a way to make a difference. Ranting may precipitate change but some form of action actually can make it happen. What action, where? That seems to be the missing ingredient in most scenarios. People talk but what do they actually do?
I was a 28 year old long haired ex-marine living in Colorado with a wife and two kids. My other long haired friends were going to make a difference by withdrawing from the system, drawing unemployment and welfare and eating food stamps. Not. They didn't withdraw from the system, they became dependent on it. They gave the system control of their lives. I would try to tell them they couldn't change anything from the outside in they had to change it from the inside out. So I put my name on a ballot to run for the town board and was elected. The Mayor resigned and I was appointed to take his place. Two years later I was re-elected for another two year term. I got to make a difference from the inside out. That was just a little grass root thing. When you get to the bigger picture you run into bigger players and it becomes way more difficult. If you haven't been groomed for politics for most of your adult life you will never make the cut in the current system at that level. So we have to find another way to vote, another way to make our ideas strong enough to be heard. The checkbook is the only way I have to do that. If we continue spending on things we don't believe in we give someone our permission to continue. So I revert to the old saying about putting my money where my mouth is. Does it make a difference? At the local level, yes. When we are measuring dollars in trillions probably not. But it makes me feel better. 

[glenn kangiser]

Can you define "groomed for politics", desdawg? hmm

I assume if I wanted to groom my child for politics I would want to make him, greedy, money grubbing, lustful for power, uncaring, unfaithful, bisexual for when he gets to DC, no cares for how many have to die to accomplish the will of the elite if he is running for president in the future, a desire to keep the oil flowing no matter how many sons and daughters have to die in our armed forces...etc.

Useful also to his success would be to teach him how to work inside deals without getting caught.  Every holder of high office that I have researched seems to have this quality, so I know it would be great training.

I could teach him that if people may possible snitch him out that there are ways in the high politics world to get rid of these threats.  The world doesn't need Vince Fosters, John Kennedys, (or Jrs) or scientist who may blow the whistle on scams he has pulled.  I could train him to ignore and lose his conscience so these things and the plight of the lower quality working class people would not enter his mind.

I could insure his success by giving him all of these qualities, I'm sure...no doubt...but would I still want to claim him as a son. hmm

[desdawg]

 
I think the training you are talking about either happens as "closet training" or after the election. It helps if you are born with a silver spoon. Then you have to go to the right schools, marry into the right family, develop the right contacts, live in such a way as to provide as little mud to sling as possible. Once you survive that and get elected then you can move on to the good stuff and become properly corrupted. Way back I used to hear that in this great nation anyone could become President. I don't believe that for a minute. 

[ScottA]

You paint a very graphic picture of politics Glen. I remember learning some of these skills when I first went into business. Like how to stone wall when confronted or how to win arguments no matter what you had to say to win. The truth is what I say it is and being fair will get you the shaft every time. Or how to disect the wording of a contract to get what you want no matter how much common sence you had to throw out to do it. Bussiness isn't much different than politics.

[glenn kangiser]

I have been self employed in business since 1974, Scott, and early on I got a book called W.S.O.B's.S.A.N.G.F.I.A.S.B.

The longer name.  Why SOB's Succeed And Nice Guys Fail In A Small Business. 

While I didn't stake my life on all it said, it was enlightening.  The publisher and Author were fairly anonymous and I could never find them or anymore of their writings later.

I worked for a liar for six months so decided that was definitely not a way to do business, so always avoided putting myself in the position of lying or carefully worded my statements to avoid needing to be in a position to.  Always trying to leave myself an out.

One of the things that stuck with me was that while you are climbing up the ladder of success you can drop rocks on the people who are struggling to climb up the ladder below you.  Not that that is my policy.  I always try to work to our mutual benefit with competitors and other business people first -- then drop rocks on the jerks -- that's all.   

[desdawg]

Honesty is the best policy. Old saying that still holds true. In a small community like this one you have to travel on your reputation. Of course the best thing is to have a good one. I had a competitor that didn't and he was my best advertising. I had mobile home dealers telling me their customers were saying yes, they would buy a home/land package as long as that competitor wasn't doing any of the work. He wasn't allowed on their property. So I learned that if you made a mistake, just admit it, fix it and go on. Whatever that costs is a pittance in the long run. I have had many referrals from building & health department inspectors and technically they are not supposed to recommend anyone.

[glenn kangiser]

It's the same way here, desdawg.  Everybody knows what your policy is so you can't afford to do a bad job even if it cost you money...but that will insure your continued success in the long run.

[ScottA]

I agree I was just being sarcastic. I've always tried to be straight up with my customers and give them what they paid for. Thing I have noticed the last few years is people trying to get alot more than they paid for and thats where the problems start and why I want out.

[glenn kangiser]

Yeah -- I know that one.  Thats why I quit dealing with most of the general public.  I pick my customers and nearly always have them make progress payments that keep them a bit ahead of what they owe me if possible.  By dealing with a trusted few companies I don't get beat out of money so often.  Most of my jobs are fairly profitable, but for a good customer in a bind I will tighten the belt occasionally.

I avoid doing contract work for friends if I think there may be problems and want to keep the friend -- I just get too busy or do some stuff for trade with them.  Others that I know are fair - I work with -- no problem.

After enough years in business you learn to read the customer pretty well immediately..but if you don't have some of that skill from the start you wont have years in business.

Nearly any problems or unreasonableness while negotiating with a potential customer sets a red flag for me. I have seen many jobs I turned down stopped for non-payment or problems after some other contractor got it.

[desdawg]

Those are all good points. I always preferred working with companies that I had relationships with over working for individuals. Not only was it repeat business but it was a good steady source of work. I printed a price list so their sales people would know how to sell a job that included my work without having to get a bid each time. A 1000 gallon septic system was $X, electical runs so much a foot, etc. I usually met with their customers and drew their site plans for them at no charge if I was doing the job. That little freebe kept them coming back, in fact they got to depend on it. It worked out pretty well for me and them.

[glenn kangiser]

I also like niche markets.  I like to do the stuff thats to small for some and too big for others -- things others can't do and to have the ability to do nearly any job that comes along -- but that being sure of getting paid is number one.

I also will work to a good customer's budget if it seems reasonable.  I get quite a bit of work filling in for contractors who have bid but don't have the manpower to do the job when necessary - schedule conflicts etc.

I find it is better to estimate high and negotiate to a lower price when possible.  I get a lot of jobs at a reasonable high price but have the ability to drop my price to meet the customers finances if it is still worth it.  That is always better than underbidding a job, as I don't like to ask for more money due to unexpected problems.  It just doesn't look good and is not good if you expect to get repeat customers.  If necessary I complete the job and eat the loss but never walk away from it. 

[John Raabe]

I enjoyed Desdawg's action adventure stories.

Working at the local level elected politics can work pretty well. If we had more folks like this "Dawg" we might not be quite as jaded and unwilling to invest any faith in our "democratic system". Small government and small business can be about productivity and serving a need. Big Government and Big Business, on the other hand, often end up doing deals that manipulate power and gain monopoly advantage. This can drain away courageous creative solutions and entrench fear and encumbantism. (Is that a word??)

A final note about Atlas Shrugged... I'm reminded of the time in which Rand wrote and how it is reflected in the narrative. The early 50's were a time when the Marxist/socialist wave was gaining favor in much of the world. Atlas Shrugged is a very strong statement pointing out the corrosive character of the caretaker society and the often misunderstood power of innovation and productivity that an open capitalistic system can produce.

That lesson is one the world has pretty much learned in the last 50 years. Just look at China!

[peternap]

I enjoy Desdog's stories also. It's good to see positive results. I have never seen much positive. I went to Military school for a while. When I went into the service, nothing was the way it was taught. That was during Viet Nam.
I worked for two different State Agencies. It was impossible to write useful staff recommendations because of the politics. The second agency was a law enforcement role and the amount of behind the scenes dealing between Administration and Corporate, was just astonishing.

I worked for a Federal agency as a contract employee and again, it was seedy.

While I was still civilized, I was on the local planning commission and later the planning district commission....again, very political and not very productive.

On the other hand, my father, who is still very active, is a lawyer who has always specialized in Government law. He has been the Attorney for a number of towns and counties for years and still represents a few of them. He is very pro growth and loves regulation. I went home yesterday for a family dinner and he and I sniped at each other for an hour or more about my lack of respect for local building codes.

I've been in and out of several businesses over the years and to be honest, I don't understand why the entire structure hasn't collapsed by now.

Your comment about muddle through economics is well thought out but...I think we've been muddleing through for a good while now and I think we're out of wiggle room.

I could be wrong though, I was once

[glenn kangiser]

When was that, Peter?   When you doubted yourself?

That happens to me a lot. 

[desdawg]

John, you nailed that book pretty well. It was written in different times. I guess I was struck by the similarities of people in the story going on strike and people now coming here to learn how to build a little place in the toolies so they can withdraw individually.
As for me, muddling through necessitated a tactical withdrawal. The local political and economic climate made it financially unwise for me to continue. At age 59 and with another five years (IMO) of a down housing market would put me at age 64 by the time it is over and stabalized once more. I would be looking to quit at that time anyway. The calls I have been getting have been for little small jobs, not the stuff running even a small company with all of its overhead is made of. Everything costs.
I remember the Carter Administration when home interest rates hit as high as 18%. I was young and dumb and kept blowing and going anyway when I should have taken a tactical withdrawal. But I just couldn't imagine it taking as long as it did to get corrected which was well into the Reagan Administration.
As for being involved in grassroot government, it was all part of my education. I didn't go to college. I have a Bachelors degree from the School of Hard Knocks and am currently working on my Masters.   
Peter, I am glad to hear you are no longer civilized. It gives me hope and a sense of not being alone. 
Glenn, you doubted yourself?  I've been doing that right along, but I prefer to call it introspection. Ah, semantics!

[peternap]

When was that, Peter? Huh?  When you doubted yourself?

Not doubt Glenn....I was convinced I had made a mistake!

[Willy]

Wow what a discussion! When will the end come I hope it isn't soon cause I just started to get it together!! I am not realy worried to much about it cause there isn't much I can do to stop it. I myself tried to learn how to survive in this world knowing it can change at any moment. All the planing in the world is not a garenteed that your plan will work or if it will have to change at the last moment. I figure I need to have a few guns and plenty of ammo, warm cloths, some food and water ect along with a tent to survive. Second part is if the bottom falls out I will just take what I need like all the others will be doing and the strong will survive. As far as having my home all confey to live out a over throw of our goverment that will never happen I will have to be able to keep moving around to stay safe. So these things I won't lose no sleep over just enjoy life for what it is day to day. I am glad I don't need meds to stay alive cause it would be hard to get them if the bottom falls out and there are tons of people who will die do to this. Try and plan ahead for that problem? Anyway Glenn I like your style! I also was a contractor for 13 years but smashed both hands between some rollers and wamo that instant my carrear was over!! Closed shop soon after that cause I did not want or have employies to deal with. Glad my fingers started working again but I just can't work to many days in a row due to them hurting. So in tring to figure what to do next I sold my place on the Coast Side of the Mountains (Rat Race Side) and moved to the East Side of them where land was cheap (for a while!) and built a paid for home on 40 acs sorta in the middle of no-where. Figured a few different ways to make a living since I have been self employed for the last 22+ years and no way am I going back to work 8-5 again. Don't have a need for a lot of money and as long as I am healthy I will do OK. Life is to short to try to figure a way to get rich now I just want to enjoy it spending as much time doing what I want to do. So far my plan has worked the last 12 years over here. I retired at 45 and only fight fires for fun a few months a year to pay the bills. The rest of the 8-10 months I sorta do as I please. Life is sweet as far as I am concerned! Mark

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks Mark, I have my moments.  I'm probably not quite as big in real life.

I said I doubted myself some, desdawg but in honesty, it probably didn't really happen.   I was just making conversation.

Mark, I agree and think flexibility and knowledge of a wide variety of things is key to survival in the event of a major change or if the system comes unglued.

Peter, you mean someone else convinced you you made a mistake?  Sounds like the garden of eden all over again.

...that should get me into trouble a couple of times.

[Willy]

Thanks Mark, I have my moments.  I'm probably not quite as big in real life.

I said I doubted myself some, desdawg but in honesty, it probably didn't really happen.   I was just making conversation.

Mark, I agree and think flexibility and knowledge of a wide variety of things is key to survival in the event of a major change or if the system comes unglued.

Peter, you mean someone else convinced you you made a mistake?  Sounds like the garden of eden all over again.

We should all have a get away place to go to just in case. My home is sorta just that and self relianant. I have my own water supply, fire protection, back up diesel generator, food, tools ect. If I lived in the city I sure would have a small cabin out in the woods to go to for a lot of different reasons. Disasters are the main ones, just to get away from the masses!! Mark H.

...that should get me into trouble a couple of times.

[glenn kangiser]

I'm at the point where I only tolerate the masses for the minimum amount of time I have to.

I must return to the mountain and rest in my native soil at night to retain my sanity (or insanity)...at least whenever I can.  I've been to the city.  Good quote, eh?

[desdawg]

Ah yes, all of those people. Even the small towns in AZ swell up in the wintertime when the snowbirds come flocking in. Raise the temperature to 100+ and it clears right out. Summertime here stops being fun right quick.

[peternap]

Peter, you mean someone else convinced you you made a mistake?  Sounds like the garden of eden all over again. Roll Eyes


That's amazing that you knew that Glenn
I was in the garden and saw a snake. I picked it up and it said "You made a BIG mistake. Put me down and eat an apple".... For a short time I thought he was right and reached for the apple.

But I came to my senses. I don't like apples so I ate the snake!

[glenn kangiser]

Good choice, Peter.