How will the end come

peternap · November 26, 2007, 10:06:07 PM

I've looked at this topic for years. Unlike most that think we may have a huge economic collapse and Police will be at our doors to take our guns and that Grand Conspiracies exist...
I see it a little different.

In my opinion, the end started a long time ago, mid 60's. Very quietly, like the sniffles that will turn into the flu.

The problem is that very few people noticed. Even now when I feel we are about to meltdown, very few people notice.

Here's what I think will happen and I'd like to hear other opinions.

Our economy will continue the slide and our credit will not be honored by most of the world. Since all we are living on is credit anyway, international trade including food will trickle down causing shortages of just about everything.

I don't think the Police will do much of anything because I doubt they will be paid. A whole new blackmarket will emerge (sort of a back alley Walmart) and that's what most people will deal with. Gold, Silver and things with physical value will be the currency.

No gas (Just like the 70's just worse)
Insurance won't pay for medical services because the dollar will be worthless.

Some states will split off and re establish a better Government.

Lots of people will die from being poor.

It won't be a short term problem. America will have to be re-invented.

glenn kangiser · November 27, 2007, 01:48:07 AM

I think part of the reason the government keeps trying to implement gun control is that they are not sure when the people will get enough of their worthlessness and come after them. Police may still be there just because many of them just like to have power over people. The ever increasing amount of taserings and taser deaths show that many of them are in it for the sport - per a recent video.

I look for a massive government caused screw up at the very least. Policies may make the cost of fuel skyrocket -- trucking industry is already at the breaking point. 3 days max food in the city stores if there is no panic. Things should deteriorate rapidly in the cities - hard telling what the burp in the system may be. Martial law will probably be declared. Gove may get to try out their new concentration camps... I mean detention facilities they have had Haliburton build. Looks like .gov expects it too.

November 29, 2007, 02:01:21 PM

I belive it will be a slow meltdown. We won't see much violence until the supply of cheap/free food and brain numbing TV shows stops. The poor will be the first to feel it when their welfare gets cut do the government being broke. The rest will pour in like sand falling through an hourglass. The country will fragment into smaller city states and the federal government will implode. I don't see any other nations trying to move in on N. America because they will all have the same kinds of problems. I expect life will roll back to something like the 1800's except for the scattered patchwork of rebuilt technology kept alive for special purposes. Radio will return as the main media in this post debt crazed world. And yes alot of people will die in the process.

williet · November 29, 2007, 04:46:04 PM

We will be sold out before we, the common citizen, even knows it's happened. Our "government" will legislate us into the hands of our new owners......It has already begun.....the question is just how much longer before it is complete.

The United states is not really a sovereign nation today. We are a part of Canada and Mexico...Our current government has made no telling how many deals with who know's what other governments. I saw Rummy addressing a group on the TV a few days ago. He said that if the United states were going to prosper in the years to come, we first had to "get past" the Constitution and we had to "accept" the fact that the military had to be in power over the "common" citizen.....sounded just like Hitler.....without all the hand waving.

The damage done in the last two administrations will never be repaired......mainly because many Americans refuse to believe it was done in the first place. To see our future in the U.S., study the country of Germany in the 1920's.....

The path has been walked before...refusing to look at it will not change the
destination.

ScottA · November 29, 2007, 08:19:08 PM

The path germany took in the 1920's and 30' was laid out for them and financed by US industrialists among others. I don't see America taking the same path though there maybe some similarities. To what end? World domination? We can't even control Iraq. Problem America has now is that all it's slave labor countries have come to their senses and are now starting to profit from US. The money is flowing the wrong way for the first time in decades and the government can't or won't stop it. It's only a matter of time before we are financialy equal with the rest of the world. The goal of our government is perpetual war and waste of it's citizens time and money for the profit of the few. Problem is the supply of free money is running out. America stopping being free a long time ago. What they teach in schools is prpaganda lies.

Scott

November 29, 2007, 08:39:04 PM

The ultra conservative political party of Germany assisted in placing an ultra ultra right-winger in office....he was ELECTED in a public election. After the election, this right-winger started the process of changing the government into something other than that which was the "norm". The MOST ultra right-wingers then turned on the majority party and stopped the government from working as it was designed.

This man, the ELECTED leader and his select few then turned an entire nation into a war machine.......

They stold an election....they changed the constitution of the country.....they used a threat of terrorism from outside the country as a tool to manipulate the public. They suspended the legal rights of the citizens of the country and flooded the country with a worker class, who were not the citizens of the country......When the ecomomy was near collapse, these ultra-conservative nut jobs...offered a way out....Throw out the Constitution and serve the Dictator. The military was used to make sure the people obeyed the New Order......

NO...it's not EXACTLY the same.....but it's close enough to be scary!

My history was learned 30 years ago....I don't know what crap they teach today...but I'm sure it's more propaganda than fact......everything else involving THIS administration is!

glenn kangiser · November 29, 2007, 09:35:52 PM

Great rants, guys. Glad I'm not the only one.

We have relatives who are so blind they absolutely refuse to believe we are in meltdown. Their eyes are closed and they blow up if you suggest they take a look at reality....prayed to god at the Thanksgiving dinner and thanked him for the stability of our country and a ton of other drivel. I assume it was his god, Bush. I almost barfed and was ready to walk out.

MountainDon · November 29, 2007, 11:28:18 PM

This from Neal Boortz (Libertarian talk show radio). November 28/2005

The death of America will more likely come from the advancement of the American welfare state.

Empires have life expectancies. The history of civilization would tell us that a country based on freedom and economic liberty generally last just a bit over 200 years. If you know of such a society that has lasted well beyond the 200-year mark, let me know. I haven't been able to find one. Our Constitution was ratified on December 15th, 1791. In just a few weeks the United States of America will be 214 years old. That, for those of you who went to government schools, is just a bit over 200 years.

You can trace the decline of American to several different and varied beginning point. Among them:

1. The adoption of a graduated and progressive income tax, as envisioned by Karl Marx.
2. The adoption of a system of government education of our children, again as envisioned by Karl Marx.
3. The movement away from a rule of law to a rule of the majority (Democracy) which really took hold during the days of Franklin Roosevelt.

America, the welfare state, is growing steadily. In the last few weeks we started George Bush's Medicare prescription drug program. The original estimates for this welfare boondoggle ran at about $300 billion for the next ten years. Those estimates doubled before the program even began. The actual tab will probably be closer to one trillion dollars for the first ten years .. and growing after that. Baby boomers will be retiring over the next decade. As they retire they will start drawing down Social Security and Medicare dollars by the bucketful. The cost will be enormous. As presently structured, these income transfer programs can't handle it, but all attempts at reform, at least insofar as Social Security is concerned, have failed.

Back to the main point. Americans are no longer in love with freedom. In fact, the case can be made that Americans are afraid of freedom. Oh, they want to be free to go on vacation and to chose where to live, who to marry and what to wear each day, but that just about covers it. Americans want the government to educate their children, guarantee their jobs, determine their wages, provide them with medical care, pay for their prescriptions, ensure their comfort in retirement, regulate their business competitors, and control the actions of their neighbors. If you suggest that the responsibility for any of these factors be placed back into the hands of the individual the screams and howls of outrage and indignation will be heard across the country.

williet · November 30, 2007, 09:51:18 AM

I have always questioned the "welfare state" crap....but now.....I am starting to believe it.

HOWEVER...I do NOT believe it's the give-aways to the poor or challenged in this country....I believe the welfare that will destroy us, will be the give-away programs for military contractors and weapons manufactures and the waste on illegal wars like the one in Iraq ( at a Trillion dollars expected now)....

The pennies that are given to physically or mentally challenged people can't touch that. Even the few dollars that are given to those folks that are just too plain lazy to work have little effect on our nation.

A TRILLION dollars for one mess, two be paid for in the next century by our yet unborn generations ....most of it unaccounted for.....and no politician seems to care. Of course there are a few who profit from this.....BUT, they're NOT the less fortunate....The welfare that IS going to break the United States will be the burden put on those FEW citizens who can find a job and are than forced to pay un-needed tax to fatten the pockets of already rich crooks who buy our poilticians.

The system IS broken.......BUT...it has little to do with being a welfare state. Before we decide to stop our aid to those who really need of our help, OUR OWN CITIZENS, let's stop wasting our money of those who DO NOT need it...the rich and powerful.

November 30, 2007, 10:03:57 AM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on November 29, 2007, 09:35:52 PM
Great rants, guys. Glad I'm not the only one.

We have relatives who are so blind they absolutely refuse to believe we are in meltdown. Their eyes are closed and they blow up if you suggest they take a look at reality....prayed to god at the Thanksgiving dinner and thanked him for the stability of our country and a ton of other drivel. I assume it was his god, Bush. I almost barfed and was ready to walk out.

Same here Glenn,

They prayed for peace in Iraq and in the next breath ask for blessings on our military machine and it's Commander in Chief. As a kid playing football, I always wondered why our coach had a prayer before each game that ask God to help us KILL the other team?

Was football THAT important?

1Cor.13
[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This country needs to GROW UP

Sassy · November 30, 2007, 11:44:54 AM

1Cor.13
[11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This country needs to GROW UP

[/quote] by Williet

Amen!

Did anyone see the link to YouTube on the $2.3 billion unaccounted for by the Pentagon on 9/10/2001 - Rumsfield is speaking... here it is again - this isn't a one-time event - this happens every year to the tune of at least a $billion! Also the CIA will never give an accounting of what money they have, where they spend it etc, citing "gov't security"

http://benfrank.net/patriots/news/national/pentagon_missing_trillions

I agree, also, it isn't so much the little guy who gets their welfare check either because of hardship or "laziness" but the big corporations, S&L's, corporate farms that get the big subsidies, bailouts with taxpayers' $$$$ that breaks our nation.

desdawg · December 09, 2007, 01:00:54 PM

Ironically enough I have just been (re)reading Ayn Rands book, Atlas Shrugged. This sounds like another chapter. I read that book years ago and had no idea what it meant. Reading it today is entirely different. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." When the student is ready the teacher will appear?
When I see Peter saying things like "America will have to be re-invented" or Scott A say things like "we are all hiding in the trees hoping no one will notice" (in another thread) makes me feel like I am not reading a novel. Perhaps Ayn Rand was a great prophet, just considerably ahead of her time. Another spiritual moment for the dawg?
I am eager for spring so I can get to the mountains and get busy. I now have the time and I have a lot of material stashed. Peter, should we start converting our assets to gold and machines like Ayn Rands characters did? I guess you would have to read the book.

peternap · December 09, 2007, 01:38:56 PM

Peter, should we start converting our assets to gold and machines like Ayn Rands

Yes...no and a little

I have always been conservative with investments Des. I have land with timber. I have machines because I have always been a do it myselfer. Some of it comes from the bad years when I could barely feed the family. If I couldn't do it with what I had, it wouldn't get done.

I do have some gold and silver that I've accumulated over the years. I also have some stocks that have done very well (Solar mostly)

I have guns and guns are a solid investment in any economy.

As far as the problems coming....I'm pretty sure!
How they will come and what will happen is another thing. Most of us here are pretty self reliant anyway. Not because we are survivalists (A lot of whom I consider nuts) but because we enjoy being self reliant.

Realizing that our country is in trouble is a little like realizing that your father really isn't the toughest fellow on the block. For a long time he is the biggest, smartest and richest man around and then one day,,,reality hits and you know, he's just a man. A man you love, but still just a human.

Our country is just a country. One that's being run poorly and is in essence...broke.

It will just happen and one day you'll discover that things others said would happen and you said "Not in this country"....are happening.

I got shot once. I didn't feel any pain and wasn't knocked off my feet...but I looked down and saw the blood and said to myself....I don't believe this just happened. (actually, it was a little more colorful expression than that...but that sums it up

)

StinkerBell · December 09, 2007, 02:30:00 PM

I have one word.....Revelation.

:

<---great emote you need to steal from my site.

December 09, 2007, 06:48:31 PM

Interesting Desdawg:

I too am reading Atlas Shrugged. I read The Fountainhead in college and it made the romantic in me turn towards architecture. I was hoping for the same from Atlas.

However romantic, I find Ayn Rand's understanding of market economics generally limited and often dead wrong. I wouldn't bet much money on her reading of the future (a future where the business leader "creatives" have had enough of government meddling and go on strike.)

Rand aside I am now a firm believer in the "muddle through" forces (another name for evolution) of market economics and see it as a stabilizing factor in the world - especially now that it is augmented by worldwide electronic communications and internet transactions. While I feel we need more regulation of monopolies than Rand would probably tolerate, I agree that the market must be kept clear and open for trade, innovation and enlightened self-interest.

If we do that, we can more-or-less muddle through most of the readjustments that have already been identified in this thread. Life will change, and we may all have to adjust to making do with less stuff.

But that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

desdawg · December 09, 2007, 08:29:35 PM

That is interesting John that we would both be reading that book at this time. I was seeing some parallels between her characters dropping out and many people here on this site building in the woods somewhere across the US with the same thing in mind.
Personally, I am of the boomer generation. I wasn't ready to retire just yet but the housing market speeded up my departure from the workforce. Now that I have stopped I realize just how tired I was of fighting the fight. I was pretty hammered by the insurance companies, hammered by all of the taxing agencies, employment laws, oil companies, regulators, etc., all of the things we take in stride when we are blowing and going. So when I see one of these rants mentioning things I can relate to I get a little exuberant. Then I have to stop and wonder how many of the ranters have the strength of their convictions and put their money where their mouth is. For instance if you believe the $ will be worthless are you converting your assets to precious metals? If you believe health insurance won't be capable of paying off are you still paying health insurance premiums? If you believe SS will be worthless have you stashed enough away to cover yourself somewhere else?
As for Ayn Rand and her story, if we just continue to "muddle through" will there be any changes or will the oppression continue to escalate? Maybe a strike would be a good thing. The big money controls the politics and policy making and that may be the only way the little people will ever be heard. Somewhere along the way charging everything off to the little guy has to stop. If enough talent becomes unavailable so the big money makers can't prosper will they listen? That is already happening in the excavating industry. I read about it in my trade publications. The recruiters for the big contractors aren't getting enough new talent to operate equipment and we boomers are leaving. New recruiting tactics are being explored but the work ethic of genX is not the same and the void is not being filled. At least that is what I am reading. The trade associations are concerned enough to be publishing articles about it.
Then again maybe this is the evolution you spoke of. We won't just drop out and go on strike we will retire. We will apply for SS and let the next generation figure out how to keep the committment that has been made. Personally, I don't think they can or will. And therein lies the problem, at least for me. So at the moment I am pretty happy to be shut down and not paying in to all of the things I was before. And I hope there are enough people doing the same to where we will be sorely missed. We were the cash flow, the life blood of the economy. And now we are not. Enough ranting from this corner.

sparks · December 09, 2007, 09:09:43 PM

Hi Folks, Very strange, I too picked a copy of 'Atlas' recently. Was watching C-Span a couple of weeks ago and they had a special on Rand for the 50th anniv. of something(?). I vaguely recall reading some of her stuff about 35-40 years ago. Interesting site at atlassociety.com Later,Sparks

EDIT: cleaned up link - MtnDon

MountainDon · December 09, 2007, 09:49:29 PM

... 50th Anniversary of the publishing of Atlas Shrugged

sparks · December 09, 2007, 10:24:35 PM

Thanks Mountain Don, I'm still learning (evolving) ! (??)

MountainDon · December 09, 2007, 10:27:56 PM

One thing at a time. There's a lot of things to learn.

FYI, Not everyone realizes they they can edit or modify their own posts. Just look for the Modify tag at top right of every post you make.

December 10, 2007, 12:01:31 AM

I just read another reference to Atlas Shrugged somewhere in the last few days. It's like --- The Twilight Zone, eh?hmm

desdawg · December 10, 2007, 08:05:30 AM

It is a very long book. But I am enjoying re-reading it. I also read the Fountainhead many years ago. I read all of the time. Waaay back when I was in High School I had a Lit teacher who would give us reading assignments and then when we discussed in class what we had read she would say things like "Now what was the author really talking about?" and we would disect the material and it's social implications. I still do that today. Of course all authors aren't "deep" like that but it is fun sometimes to find one that is. It is an artform I guess.
In another thread I mentioned Jeremiah Johnson, the movie. That movie spoke to choices, actions, consequences both to yourself and others, peer pressure or societal pressure. There was really a lot going on in that film besides it being just an entertaining story line. Robert Redford seems to enjoy doing that type of film and that is his art.
In Atlas Shrugged somewhere if I could ever find it again the question was posed that if you encountered Atlas carrying the weight of a really screwed up world on his shoulders what would you advise him to do? The answer was to shrug. Thus the name of the book.
In this book the government was rewarding people based on their need rather than what they produced. The creators and the inventors, the industrialists were losing the rights to their creations and achievments. To make a long story short the achievers of the world went on strike and one by one started disappearing from society. The great minds were congregating in a hidden valley in the Colorado Rockies and re-inventing an industrial society. They were cashing in the assets they could salvage and exchanging them for gold and industrial machinery. Their departure was causing the collapse of the society they left behind. They referred to the people that were running the government as the looters. So that is the story in a nutshell. The theory was that the government could only screw you if you continued to give them permission by your continued participation. If you withdrew that the power was gone. Anything sound familiar?

glenn kangiser · December 10, 2007, 11:03:31 AM

The only thing missing from our world is leaving the looters.

Sassy · December 14, 2007, 12:49:21 AM

This might fit in here

Global Banks Embrace Islam
What Islam could not achieve in centuries through military aggression, terrorism and political hardball, will now be accomplished by the global banking community that is stampeding to dominate Islamic banking ruled by totalitarian and brutal Shari'a law. Indeed, this brand of Islamic banking is the mother of all Trojan horses. Every citizen of every non-Islamic country should immediately see the clear and present danger presented by this unholy alliance.
http://www.augustreview.com/issues/global_banking/global_banks_embrace_islam_2007121282/

desdawg · December 14, 2007, 11:17:29 AM

That is some pretty harsh stuff Sassy. Gotta be careful what you name your teddy bear. I don't suppose those are wet noodle lashes either, probably the real thing. I hope I don't have any accounts with the wrong banks and become a default member.
I am real disoriented right now. I wasn't planning on quitting just yet but it seemed to work out that way. In September my Contractors Liability Insurance was up for renewal, $2500 for another year of 1M coverage, required to work in the county right of way. I let it lapse. Now my truck registrations are due, about $1500 for my dump truck and service truck. I am not renewing. If I want to use them I can always get a plate later. Cancelled my liability insurance on the trucks, $2331 per year, liability only and restricted to a 100 mile radius of home base. I am, or was, just a small contractor. My contractors license is good until July 2009. I vacilate between being happy to be out of the rat race and angry at the necessity forced by circumstances. So if I sound like I am bouncing off the walls it is only because I am. I had no idea that this transition would be this hard mentally. I have never been a quitter. But to pony up these costs in the hopes of a turnaround seems like it would be akin to financial suicide. Anyway, if I have offended anyone I apologize. I am not my normal self at the moment.