TAX the SMOKERS?

[Dog]

Okay. The Dems want to PROMOTE smoking to "Help Children". Oh my...  SCHIP

From what I'm hearing is that our country needs to count on 22.4 million NEW smokers to fund SCHIP?
Huh? What does this mean for health care ...?

Who wants to bring up a thread on Universal Health Care?  Which of course ='s govt control big time. It has to make economic sense to function. So the govt decides what for me for you? How we will live and how we will die? This kind of thinking is nothing new. Man has been functioning in this mind set for thousands of year. Ugggg. it's how human beings function. We really need to concentrate on being as independent as possible.

Oh...and back to the TAX on SMOKERS....

[MountainDon]

Well, first of all where does that info you stated come from?  I haven't seen that but maybe I was not paying strict enough attention.

[wildbil]

Thats rediculous, noones promoting smoking. Smokers should pay more, they put a heavy load on our healthcare system. They don't have to buy the cigs do they?

[MountainDon]

Alright. I found a reference. Google "tax smokers schip"

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/wm1548.cfm

It's old, July 2007. No one was saying go and promote smoking so can can have increased tax revenue. In a nutshell, the talk was about increasing the tobacco tax to pay for SCHIP. It was calculated that the proposed increase still wouldn't be enough without new smokers.

Now, as far as smoking goes, I do believe it is a foolish thing to do. I say that as a reformed smoker; a smoker of cigars and pipes. I know it is difficult to quit, I did it several times before it 'took'. After quitting my health improved; colds, bronchitis and respiratory infections are mostly a thing of the past. I guess maybe I've been lucky, I can work and hike at 8800 feet and do quite well.

If there's to be a tax increase I believe the money should go to education regarding the hazards of smoking.

On the one hand I agree that a person who engages in a proven health endangering activity such as smoking, should pay higher premiums. On the other where would such discrimination end, how far would it extend?

Would we be allowed one 5 oz. glass of red wine a day? How would wine consumption be policed? Or how about people who hike a lot; should they be given a "health credit"? What if you like to hike in lonely canyons or other potentially dangerous places? Would that activity be penalized?

Can o' worms. 

[peternap]

Thats rediculous, noones promoting smoking. Smokers should pay more, they put a heavy load on our healthcare system. They don't have to buy the cigs do they?

I beg your pardon....I smoke and put 0.....ZERO, ZIP..NADA

load on our health care system! I can guarantee you go to those overpaid quacks more than I do!

[John_C]

I have never smoked, don't like the smell, don't think people shoild smoke. I always thought of myself as a relatively strong anti-smoker.  Only government could put me on the side of smokers and the tobacco industry.

What happened to the huge class action settlement with the tobacco companies about a decade ago?  I don't see that the money went towards health care for smokers; all that happeened was that smokers lost many of their rights to sue tobacco companies.

Now they want to follow the NY model
"Smokers will be paying $2.75 per pack in state taxes, a jump from the previous tax of $1.50. Before the new tax, the average price of a pack of cigarettes was $5.82 statewide, and about $8 a pack in New York City, which levies its own taxes, Daines said. The new retail price for a pack in the city could now soar past $10 depending on the store."  article http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,362122,00.html

As a non smoker it looks to me like we got virtually all the things we wanted.  It's illegal to smoke on planes, in theaters, restaurants, etc. , even here in the deep south, home of big tobacco.

So how much tax should be on a pack of cigarettes?  $3.00,  $10.00,  $25.00

[Dog]

My main concern with this new "TAX" is the hit that the mentally ill will face if the new higher taxes are imposed on cigs. I live in MA (taxachusetts) and we are an extremely liberal tax heavy state. By increasing taxes on cigs who is ultimately paying the price for this? (not that all smokers are mentally ill. No hate mail please)

I work in Boston as a human servant. Actually both my spouse and I do the same work. The clients that we serve have enormous stresses on top of mild to severe mental illness. Many unfortunately are HOOKED on the cancer sticks.  They will spend  large amounts of their SSI and SSDI income to fund this habit no matter how much counseling is received or how high the price goes. Cigs get a bad hook in some people an won't let go. To think that our govt is trying to profit off of this speaks volumes. Taxing the poor.

Dear wildbil...At first I immediately thought the same thing. I had to think it through...and came to the defense of the addicted smoker. I've known so many. Personally, I hate smoking. I do smoke occasionally when stressed but am grateful I don't "need" to smoke regularly.

Dear petnap...relax...I think you're great...I love the way you opened the Inauguration thread..lol..that was fuuny.
Please, however...do not make assumptions about those who see paid quacks more than you do  .... Not trying to rile the bear here...  You just sound angry. Roar.

Many professionals work hard to help people live a better life. Especially in the city. It's really not an easy job. Few will listen or follow through on good advice, but that is their choice.

MountainDon..right...where does it end? Congrats on quitting btw. Not easy thing to do. Rock~
Respect~

John C.~I agree that smokers shouldn't not smoke in public places. It's not fair to the non-smoker.

So who's going to start the Universal Health Care Thread? it's going to heat up. Hillary thought she was co-pres when Bill was elected and tried to push UHC through 8 years ago...remember...?

Look at Canada? Is it really working? We need reform on this issue, not more govt control.


 

   

[ScottA]

Heck while we're at it lets add a big fat tax to fried chicken, soda, candy, chips, big macs, skate boards, motor cycles and anything else that's even remotly dangerous. They tax cigs because smokers are an unrepresented minority and they can easily get away with it politicaly. Has nada to do with funding health care.

[MountainDon]

So who's going to start the Universal Health Care Thread?

I'll save my energy regarding that until such a time we have something to critique

[fishing_guy]

Thats rediculous, noones promoting smoking. Smokers should pay more, they put a heavy load on our healthcare system. They don't have to buy the cigs do they?

Maybe this isn't the best subject to bring up on this board...


I've been a smoker most of my ADULT life.  I go to the doctor so infrequently that they ALWAYS mess up my insurance.

It's usually at least two years out of date.

And of course, there's all those days I've missed from work being sick.  Let's count 'em.  Exactly 2, recovering from a  shoulder (sports, not smoking related) surgery in the last 25 years.

I know it isn't the best habit...but use some facts Dog...

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

I don't smoke, and worse yet am highly allergic to smoke (allergy induced asthma).  However, I think that the taxes on cigarrettes are just another sign of government on steroids... and I agree with those of you who smoke that you aren't an undue "burden to the system".  Most of the smokers I know (including my dad and step-mom, who are both chain smokers) would rather die than go to the doctor, and my dad FINALLY went to the doctor for the first time in probably 20 years or more because he had a torn rotator cuff. (Nothing habit-related.)  Of course, that was only after trying to "tough it out" for six weeks or more.  On one hand, I am thankful for Oklahoma's no smoking in restaurant's laws... they greatly benefit me.  I can remember as a kid, every time we'd go out to eat, I'd end up sick because of the smoke drifting over from the smoking section.  But, at the same time, the anti-smoking laws also bother me because they infringe on other people's personal freedoms (I especially don't like the laws that some places have gone to prohibiting smoking in cars and in your own property... don't remember where it was but read about somewhere where you could be fined for smoking in your apartment if the smoke drifted in someone else's windows.)  To me, I think it makes more sense for me to just avoid sitting in other people's smoke than it would to push for greater taxation on ANYONE!

[Jens]

I, regretfully sometimes, smoke.  I roll my own, about $12 a month or so, Natural American Spirit tobacco.  I can't stand all the filters, chemicals, substandard tobacco, and freebase nicotine that goes into most cigarettes.  I think that may be one of the biggest causes of all the smoking related difficulties (health wise), is the fact that they changed it from smoking tobacco, to smoking a legal form of crack.  While we're at it though, if you really want to clean up people's health system and put less load on the healthcare system, why don't we just outlaw, or highly tax anything that is not organic, or local.  Gotta be one or the other, preferably both.  I think that is a bigger problem with the health (especially obesity) in this country.  I'm going to take the dog outside one last time, and have a smoke now.  Just remember, "but I did not exhale...", wait...did I get that wrong?

[sparks]

Taxes and all that aside........I can envision the day I could be busted for SWD.
Smoking While Driving.


sparks

[MountainDon]

... and I agree with those of you who smoke that you aren't an undue "burden to the system".  Most of the smokers I know (including my dad and step-mom, who are both chain smokers) would rather die than go to the doctor

I think you missed the point of where the high costs are incurred. The high costs are incurred when the patient goes to the doctor because of a cough that gets worse, chest pain, shortness of breath, etc. A chest Xray is ordered and reveals lung cancer. If the cancer is very advanced the monetary costs may not be all that high. They're sent home to die, or at least until such a time they need nursing home or hospice services. Now those costs do add up. Or, in cases where the cancer can be treated, buying the patient some more years of life. All at the cost of surgeries, radiation or chemotherapy, or a combination. Pretty expensive treatments, and I believe, in most cases totally preventable if the patient had not smoked.

Sure some people develop lung cancer or emphysema and have never used tobacco products directly. Life, and death, is not always fair. However, I do believe tobacco smoking or oral use is not beneficial to long life.


I don't believe having access to organic tobacco would improve things a lot. Wouldn't that be a hoot, cigarettes with the USDA Organic label. 

[Jens]

there is organic tobacco.  Not saying it's not bad for you, but gotta be better than inhaling the freebase nicotine, strychnine, fiberglass laced, gunpowder burning alternatives out there, which is everything but American Spirit, and Winston, from my research.

In a socially run healthcare system, would treatment even be available, or so pitiful as to be desired?  Increased taxes can't afford any of that, whether it is from smoking, or the most prevalent of abuses known to harm the health of mankind, alcohol. 

[Dog]

Our health care system is already being computerized. This in itself isn't a bad thing. It's good for clear communication between physicians, but good luck trying following those HIPPA Regs as a provider. So much for patients privacy. That didn't last long.

As the population ages the demand for health care needs are going to become greater an greater. MountainDog...keep an eye out and store up your energy. Govt controlled health care is on the table. This is a major subject.

Scott...I do think it has a lot to to with health care. Maybe the cigs is a soft target to start out with. I do think you bring up a point though...MA already wants to tax restaurants to raise revenue. Why not not tax motorcycles or anything they can think of to raise more. G. knows the govt needs sit. The state wants to increase the Turnpike Tolls ridiculously. In MA when you receive a speeding ticket, on top of the hefty fine you are issued an additional $50.00 is attached to fund head injury research.

Also, we are demanded to wear seat belts. Please...If I choose to ride a motorcycle, a horse or drive my car, it is not up to the govt to dictate for me that am required by law to wear a helmet. That should be my prerogative.


All the money outspended has to come from from somewhere...

[peternap]

Dear petnap...relax...I think you're great...I love the way you opened the Inauguration thread..lol..that was fuuny.
Please, however...do not make assumptions about those who see paid quacks more than you do  .... Not trying to rile the bear here...  You just sound angry. Roar.

   

It just sounds that way sometimes Dog. I've only gotten angry at one member here. We're all friends.

[wildbil]

Thats rediculous, noones promoting smoking. Smokers should pay more, they put a heavy load on our healthcare system. They don't have to buy the cigs do they?

Ok, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound so cold. I guess what I should have said is: "I would never push for a tax on cigarettes, But if a tax did happen I really wouldn't care, as it doesnt affect me. And I don't believe anyone wants to increase smoking with the tax, but merely use it as an incentive for people to quit."

Don is right, where do you draw the line on what gets taxed. The only solution is universal healthcare. Think about it, We pay taxes for so many on disability, medicaid, medicare, and helping cover people who haven't insurance by paying higher costs ourselves. We say we don't want the Gov telling us whats right for our care, so instead we trust multibillion dollar CORPORATIONS, and Pharmeceutical companies, HMOs, PPOs. The people who run our private insurance world right now want nothing more than to suck everyone it covers dry while paying the very least amount for a service. At least in theory the Government works for the people.

If you found you had a life threatening condition right now, would you rather be told it was a precondition and then you'd be swallowed in medical debt. Or would you want to go get free service that everyone is afforded. If you don't believe free healthcare is the solution, then next time your house burns down or someone robs you, offer to pay the firefighters or police for their labor cost and materials used.

And If everyone put a little effort into their own preventive healthcare, universal healthcare would be a lot easier to obtain.

Maybe that will rile some folks up.

Wildbil

[Dog]

Hi Jens. I agree with rolling your own natural tobacco without all the additives is best way to go if you smoke. They even taste better.

The big tobacco companies poison cigarettes with all kinds of disgusting additives which increase dependency on cigarettes to increase profits. That's just plain wrong. I know too many people who are trying to quit and are having a terrible time because they are so addicted. They will buy cigs before food.

I'm just concerned about all these new and bigger taxes that are coming which will fall on the backs of working people as well as those who can least afford them.

[Squirl]

They tax cigarettes because it is a great source of revenue. Just like all vices.  The first taxes in this country were on alcohol. (whiskey rebellion.) And one of the first acts of congress was to require all stills to be registered with the government.  Tobacco, while it was enjoyable and mildly addictive did not have the same qualities back then.  As it became more addictive it became more taxed.  They tax it because they know people will still buy it, not to stop the smoking.

[Dog]

Agreed Squirl. The "sin" taxes. Great source of revenue. I'm going off here a little on a different type of smoke... "weed". OOOOOUUU...It's less harmful than alcohol and our govt throws tons of money at it to keep it illegal. hum?.....how about the govt go and reg it just like alcohol and tax it? That saves money and generates money. humm...?  I've never understood the big problem with that one. I once had a neighbor growing it in his back yard. It actually started moving into my back yard. It's a weed. Easy to grow and in my mind relativly harmless. Cetainly less harmful than those cigarettes and alcohol sold off of store shelves. To think that a person can actually lose a job, receive a fine, go to jail...for "weed" is stupid.
How many incidents do you hear about where people get into rip roaring bar fights? I hear about them all the time. I've never noticed the "pot heads" trying to tear each other apart. Additonally, it's not addictive like cigs and alcohol.

[wildbil]

Weed is psychologically addictive. It also is a common trigger to bring out mental illness in a person. I've tried it before, didn't like it, and ended up losing a lot of intelligent friends to the drug world. I have seen Mentally ill people beat their heads in the wall because: "Weed makes them feel normal."

http://www.well.com/user/woa/fspot.htm
"Studies of marijuana's mental effects show that the drug can impair or reduce short-term memory, alter sense of time, and reduce ability to do things which require concentration, swift reactions, and coordination, such as driving a car or operating machinery."

"Long-term regular users of marijuana may become psychologically dependent."

"Marijuana smoke has been found to contain more cancer-causing agents than is found in tobacco smoke."



I'm not saying everyone who smokes it is crazy, an idiot, or a criminal...but Most of the time to obtain it, someone will have to put themselves in a dangnerous place, around sometimes dangerous people.

[NM_Shooter]

How about we just let everybody do whatever they want to themselves, as long as they don't ask for any financial assistance from anyone else if they need healthcare?

-f-

[Dog]

Yes wildbil. people put themselves in dangerous situations to obtain weed. That's also part of my point.
I'm not suggesting that it's good for you. I don't think most vices are. Especially if a person suffers from a mental illness it can certainly make things worse. Just like with alcohol. Of course you shouldn't smoke pot and get behind the wheel of a car.
It can be psychologically addictive. I've just never observed anyone going through withdrawals like I have seen with alcohol and even cigarettes.

[Squirl]

I do not smoke the marijuana.  Though, I do believe it is less harmful than cigarettes and alcohol.  I have seen alcohol and cigarettes kill dozens of people.  Many of them were my friends or family. But they are socially acceptable.  Cigarettes are becoming socially unacceptable. 
Marijuana can be psychologically addictive.  Alcohol and cigarettes can be physically addictive.  You cannot overdose on Marijuana.  You can overdose on Nicotine and Alcohol.

Now I may come across as a conspiracy theorist, but here goes.  I think in the end it comes down to the money.  Alcohol produces massive amounts of tax revenue.  Tobacco does the same and the producers hire the best lobbyists and marketers that money can buy.  All other drugs (cocaine, amphetamine, opium) can be had by the larger lobbyist group the drug companies.  Marijuana would be a competitor to every one of these industries.  Enforcement generates revenue for the government and protects the many other industries that provide mind altering substances.