Well recommendations well-come.

[Alasdair]

We managed to find our well head yesterday. (after much shoveling of snow...) I want to clean the well and get the water tested as it was installed 5 years ago and never been used.
I need to install a pump and was hoping some of you would have recommedations about how to go about this and regarding brands.The well head is 6" and has been capped. There is power on site. The well is 99ft deep with water at 20ft (if I read this report correctly)



I would like to install the pump with a pressure tank system eventually (once we have somewhere to put it!) but was wondering if I could simply install the pump on a manual switch so that we can have a water source (tap/hose etc) for the start of our build.

[MountainDon]

It appears that the well casing goes down 20 ft and the water level with no draw is at 12 feet (static). They drew the water down to the 98 foot level and it took 21 minutes to come back to 20 feet. 

[Redoverfarm]

In answer to your question you could install the pump in itself w/o a pressure tank to temporaily use the water.  But w/o a check value at the bottom you would loose all pressure and water in the liine when the pump was turned off and it would have to renergize it each time that you turned the pump on.  Personally I would set the pump 5-7 feet from the bottom.  I am sure Glenn will give his insight as he did this for a living.  No real big issue but you will have to splice the supply line later as well as the power line to extend it to where it needs to be at a later date or extend it now and leave coiled up to have enough to reach your pressure tank in the future. With a depth of 98 feet you could actually pull it later to attach the apprioate length needed to reach the house.

[glenn kangiser]

Don has it right on the well, Al.  Cased to 20' - probably open hole in rock afther that drilled with a down the hole hammer I assume. 

A rather rough but often used method of well testing and I'm sure your driller is likely experienced in estimating the flow.  He blew it down to the bottom almost - 98 feet then measured 20 minute recovery.  Estimating the volume of the well and 78 feet recovered in 21 minutes he came up with 6 gallons per minute.

There is more testing you can do but I would just go with a 5 gpm submersible (likely 1/2 hp or less -check with your pump man if you use one) and a bladder tank with a check valve at the pump and controller, pressure switch and shutoff  at the top.  A pump house would have to be there to prevent freezing.  Some terminate below ground with a special head but it looks like yours is 1 foot above ground. 

Thinking about that -- you are in freezing country.  You may want to do that different.  There is a way to use an air bleed valve and have the line drain back to the well rather than a bladder tank.  It was commonly used before bladder tanks and is still common.  You might ask what they do locally.  With a pump house you could use the bladder and it is more trouble free. 

Keeping the pump smaller than the incoming water quantity will prevent burning it out.  Larger means set deep at near the bottom and an automatic pump safety switch such as a Coyote or similar to shut it off with a timed wait  in the case that you pump it dry.  Not necessary and 5 gpm is plenty.  I have one gpm recovery here.

Setting it deeper is good - less chance of problems if the well doesn't produce as well as estimated.

You can use just the pump temporarily with no tank.  You can set it yourself if you like.  Pump guys are expensive sometimes --- more like most of the time.  I am when I do it.

[Alasdair]

Thanks for that guys - I am off to bother some Capers for some local well wisdom too.
I like the idea of a pump house as We will want the well to service several buildings eventually, (house, shed, barn etc.) and it seems that it would be easier to have the system in a central location with large tank and a manifold we could branch off from to the different locations.
I will let you know the results of my bothering the good folk of Cape Breton - the thing about asking questions here is that you end up talking for hours, being asked in, where do you come from, then a family history, cups of tea/coffee, meet the family etc. etc. folks are so friendly you forget the answer to your question - sometimes you forget to ask it!

[JRR]

If you intend to have a pump house, you may want to consider a jet pump.  With a jet pump, there is less "stuff" down in the well (and none of it electrical) ... and more "stuff" above ground and easier to get to.  With a jet pump, at 90ft, there would be two hoses/pipes down to an assembly that would include jet, foot valve, and inlet screen -- very few moving parts.  Usually the jet assembly is much easier to lift out of the well than the submersible ... or so I've been lead to believe.  I've never owned a submersible pump.  Have "heard" that the motors are very suseptible to voltage spikes ... may be a "tale".

But a submersible, I believe, is more energy efficient ... and would probably be my choice today, unless dependability were a bigger factor.  Then I would have to study some more.

Sears use to sell many pump systems of all designs.  I have bought a few jet systems from them.

[MountainDon]

If you do build a pump house shelter be certain to build in a method to allow easy pulling of the pump. One hundred feet isn't too bad, but you still need to have that 100 ft of pipe go somewhere as you lift it.

[river place]

When we had our well put in near Pencil Bluff AR I decided to build shed intead of a small well house.  I used the small house plans to constuct the structure in 4' panels and then hauled them up for a quik build and built roof on site. 

The well was put in with a submersible pump and terminated into a galvanized tank complete with pressure cutoff. Tank was place on a sideways cinder block so concreate could be poured later.  Had a 10x14 slab poured.  Built the shed around the well and tank which resides in one corner.  I framed the interior so that the well equipment was in a small room by itself.  I only have to keep the well room above freezing

The well equipment access is from it's own exterior door.  This gives easy access and the ability to pull the well pipe out though the door to service the pump.

[Alasdair]

I was just about sold on the idea of a seperate pump house but all the local guys suggest that this is unnecessary/one more structure that needs to be heated and that however you heat it the coldest night of the year is always the night the heating breaks down. They suggest digging 6ft or so down the casing cutting through it to install a submersible pump then running the power and water to the house and in under the footings. The only part I would have to worry about freezing would be where the water enters the house. I see sense in this but I am still undecided.    I'm going to ring some plumbers for quotes/suggestions too.

[Redoverfarm]

That is pretty well standard here in procedure.  Just remember that their is a pittless adapter that has to be installed or should I say "should" be installed and it will be a real PIA to go that deep and work inside the casing to put the other half on.  I made a "T" handle to install the adapter in mine but it was only 3' below the top of the casing.  I guess you could make the "T" handle longer to hold the inside portion.

If you are concerned about freezing when it exits the ground to the house(inside of crawl space) you could remember to put an electrical box and wire a switch upstairs to hook up a heat lamp or heat cord to wrap the pipe.  You could also build a wooden chase enclose it all, insulate and heat wire. 

[MountainDon]

A friend here in the mountains has a well with a pitless adapter. It's very cool. The casing is large enough that the pump passes by the adapter with ease. In his case the pip to the house is three feet deep. The house is a slab on grade so the pipe enters straight up through the floor. It's a permanent and only residence so there's no real issue with frezzing to worry about.

[glenn kangiser]

I have read of the pitless adapter but in our area it is not necessary so I don't have any experience with it.  I think the guys you talked to are right though - in your area it is likely the way to go.

[Alasdair]

This site gives a good overview of the system with a pitless adapter

http://www.do-it-yourself-pumps.com/you-can-install-a-pump-system.htm

I wonder if their prices are a little high though.

[cfabien]

Pitless adapters have been the standard method of connecting the well to the submersible pump around here (Michigan, Ohio) for decades. Prior to them being popular people either had the well equipment installed in an underground pit or in a small pump house which had to be heated & insulated. I would suggest going with a pitless adapter and submersible pump setup. With a 100 foot well you will be able to use plastic drop pipe so the pump/pipe should be light enough to service on your own (with a helper or two). FYI they do also make two-pipe pitless adapters for jet style pumps.

[Alasdair]

cfabien,

Thanks for the input.
I am going to go for the submersible pump and pitless adapter with a pressure tank. at the moment I am researching what size of tank to go for as in the future we will probably want to run a few buildings (barn, guesthouse etc) off the system. At first I had thought I might need more than one tank but the more I think about it the dafter this seems - one large tank should suffice and just treat all the buildings as one unit.
can't wait for the snow to go so we can get cracking!

Al

[glenn kangiser]

One decent sized bladder type tank should work well.  That is what we do down here.  The larger capacity tank keeps the pump from cycling on and off as much. 

With the bladder type tanks you can just add another on the line later if you want to double capacity and let the pump run longer.  Nothing else special to do.  You can leave a tee in the line with a plug or extra shutoff if you think it might be something you would want to do.  Longer run time - larger drawdown capacity, is better for the pump.

[Okie_Bob]

Just wanted to remind you to have your water tested as you are basically going to be using ground water at only 20' depth.
Depending on where you are, you could easily be drinking your neighbors fertilizer or even their septic system discharge. I'd be
very sure and check it often. Around here, I'd never drink water from a well less than 100' deep. But, that's just me.
Okie Bob

And listen to what Glenn says, he is 'da man!

[Alasdair]

Thanks for that Bob,
We will certainly test the water often. There shouldn't be too much of an issue with neighbours since there are none close and the lot is in the forest.
I don't know for certain but I don't think it's ground water. The well is 100' and the casing goes to 20' with the water level at 12' and water bearing fractures at 35'. Although we havn't yet started excavating a precursory look at the local area suggests that there is not much soil before you are into rock. Of course it could  be a mix of water from the aquifer and ground water but we won't know until we get going!
Hopefully that won't be too long now!
Al

[glenn kangiser]

A good test should tell you what's up.  Water can get cleaned up quickly if it is filtered through good soil, but that is the key.  Water heading through from a faulty seal can contaminate a good well. 

If it tests good and has a good seal I would not worry much about it.  Bottled water you buy from a store will likely be worse.

The check is in the mail, BoB...

[Alasdair]

Sooooo...
Being the type who likes to research a project thoroughly and explore all their options (ie a dork! lol) and since I will be investing quite a bit of cash I invested quite a bit of time into researching my options. I even went as far as enrolling and posting in several other forums and ringing as many local Nova Scotia suppliers as possible. The results are quite mixed regarding set up.
Here's a selection of some of the various things I have been told by experts other than our own dear Glenn (who's suggestions seem the most "uncommonsense" so far)....

Your 99' - 10 to set the pump at 10' off the bottom = 89'-12' static level =77' of water and a 6" well gives you 1.47 gal/ft = 113 gallons of water with the 6 gpm recovery rate. I would size the pump to pump from a water level of 90' and give you more than 10 gpm.
I sell water treatment equipment and it all has to be sized for the peak demand of the house as to how the family uses water in the number of bathrooms AND the type of fixtures in them. I sell for houses that have a 20 gpm shower alone! Large tubs can flow at 9-12 gpm, alone. So I do not agree with 10 gpm peak unless you do not have any large tubs or two person or body spray showers and won't in the future. My equipment records the highest gpm run through it each of the last 7 days and then, the highest gpm ever run through it; I've not been told I have been wrong on their peak demand yet, out of 1200 sales of that control valve.
Without looking it up, I'd suggest a 230 vac 15 gpm 1/2 hp submersible set at 89' on 160 psi rated 1" PE pipe and a dovetail type pitless adapter and the same PE pipe to the pressure tank.
You do not need a large tank, and thinking about it, you can't use a large tank to make up for a low producing well. Every drop of water used is then taken from the well all at once to refill the tank. And at 40/60 your draw down of the tank happens quicker so the pump runs more frequently and often. What 'extra' water do you get from the well?
I suggest a small tank and a CSV (Cycle Stop Valve) which provides constant pressure and doesn't refill the tank until you stop using water.
Do not buy a pump or tank from a big box store, they are low quality, a pump guy will have much better quality.

I am recommending a 3-wire submersible, as opposed to the 2-wire requested because the 3-wire comes with the starting switch and capacitor built in to a control panel (included) which mounts in the home.  This allows for future replacement of the starting mechanisms without removing the pump from the well.  If you still wish to use a 2-wire pump, the cost for the pump is the same and the wire would be $0.75/foot.
I have allowed for an extra 30ft of 1" poly so that it can be used as a conduit to bury the wire between the home and the well.  I have allowed for a well cap as well, although there should be one placed on the well by the well driller when the hole was made.  A standard 20gal tank would be a proper match to the 7gpm pump, but I have allowed for a 26gal tank because of the guest cabin.  The "tank kit" includes the tank tee and associated pressure switch, gauge, relief valve and drain valve.  The rope hanger is a steel plate which mounts on the top edge of the well casing in order to have something to tie the rope to.  I have included two watertight splicing kits - one for the pump end and one for the wellhead.
As for your question of check valves and cycle stop valves, I would not even bother with them.  There is a check valve built in to the top of the pump, and your pump will be less than 100ft down the well.  Cycle stop valve are quite expensive and unnecessary.

I agree with Gary on the pump size and the fact that if you hang the pump near the bottom, you will have more water to use. The largest Bladder Tank made only holds around 40 gallons and would cost you over $600.00 or more.
You can look at pump curves at my Submersible Pump Page. Your looking for 10 gpm at around 180 feet of head. That would be the 3/4hp 10 gallon per minute pump or the BF-1010. You can also read about Cycle Stop Valves there.

You are pretty much bang on with your findings, although I would recommend a few slight changes.   First a .5 hp, 10 gallon per minute pump may be a bit easier on the well.   The 7 gallon per minute will actually draw the well down at a quicker rate at start up.   Utilize a 4 wire pump if at all possible.  The benefit of a 4 wire pump is the start capacitor and overload relay are built into a control box that is mounted along side your pressure tank.  The control box has the opportunity to save your pump during power surges or lightning strikes.  If at any time there is a failure, no need to replace the pump, usually just the control box.  230 volt application is ideal.   Factor in the depth to pitless when setting the pump.  Too close to the bottom of the well could result in constant silt up conditions.  Dirt, silt or any debris from the aquifers will settle on the bottom of the well.  Too close to the bottom and you will be sucking it up all the time.
Install a check valve on the water inlet side of your pumping system.  The pump will also have a built in check valve so no need to install one in the well itself.
No need for a cycle stop valve in a conventional residential application.
If you use rope, install a rope hanger as well.
30-50 low water switch is typical.  Make sure its the low water cut-off type.  This switch offers a bit of protection if a low water situation arises.  Pressure can be regulated or increased as needed.

Quite a variety of info to sort through there! Pumps ranging from 1/2hp 5gpm to 3/4hp 10gpm to 1/2hp 15gpm! and a wide variety of advice concerning  cycle stop valves and no return valves too. This caused me some consternation and so I questioned one of the local suppliers,

I am somewhat confused as I have been asking questions on internet forums and recived a great deal of conflicting information! anything between 5gpm to 15gpm pumps, csv's, 2,3,4 wires  etc etc...
Your points about the depth of the pump are a help.
I still need some clarification regarding valves and pump size .. (I'm not always the sharpest tool in the box!)
Can you say exactly where you mean when you say "Install a check valve on the water inlet side of your pumping system" If there is one after the pump why and where else would I need another one? (I assume a check valve is a non return valve of sorts.)
I am still unsure about the pump sizing - it seems counter intuitive to have a pump rated at a gpm which exceeds that of the well. Surely you run the risk of over pumping the well. Even a 7gpm pump must draw the well (with a recovery rate of 6gpm) down by 1gpm if running constantly - one presumes that if an appliance were faulty or left on accidently that my well with 100+or- gals above the pump would be emptied to the level of the pump in 1 hr 40 mins. I understand that you recommend a low water cut off switch but don't understand the advantage of the 10gpm pump over the 7 or even 5gpm pumps (which seem to me to be safer!)
I also don't understand why "The 7 gallon per minute will actually draw the well down at a quicker rate at start up." Is it a case of over coming inertia faster?
Please understand that I'm not questioning that your recommendations are correct - it's just that I don't understand why.

His reply ...

Hi Alasdair,
As funny as this is going to sound its true.
The higher the pump size, (10 gpm, 7gpm, 5 gpm) the slower the pumping rate at depth.  What this means is you will have less water delivery from a 10 GPM pump at 85 feet that a 7 gpm.   Lots of physics and hydraulics come into play, but as you empty the well, the pump works harder, it actually slows down the deeper the water level is.  A 10 GPM Goulds pump will deliver approximately 6-7 gallons per minute at 85 feet and is within its optimal pumping range.  A 7 GPM pump will deliver 9 plus gallons at  85 feet, but is just outside of its optimal pumping range.  So, in essence you run the risk of draining the well a lot faster with a 7 GPM pump.   
As a general rule, a 10 GPM .5 hp pump is good up to 100 feet depth.  A 7 GPM .5 hp is good to 150 feet depth and a 5 GPM .5 hp is good to 150 feet.  Then bump up to .75 HP for deeper, up to 350 feet then up to 1 HP for 400 + footers.  This general rule can be altered, depending on well recovery rates, elevation issues, and demand issues.   I have 1 hp pumps in 200 foot wells simply because I need volume and lots of it. 
We prefer 4 wire.  Our experience has shown 4 wire pumps to be more reliable and easier to troubleshoot if needed.  That's more of a personal preference.  Pumps cost the same, the only extra cost is for the wire.
According to the plumbing code here in Nova Scotia, a check valve is needed at the pressure tank.  This is installed on the pressure tank tee itself, where the water enters the tank, on the inlet, or well side.  This is to prevent backflow, thus eliminating the possibility of contamination of the aquifer.   Although Goulds brands have check valves on the pump itself, some other brands do not have check valves.  So to play it safe, we are mandated to install a check valve at the pressure tank, regardless.

I thought I would throw it out there again to fellow country planners to see if anyone could cast any light on the physics/hydraulics of pump sizing and if anyone had any strong opinions regarding the advice I have been given.
so whaddya think?
Al

[JRR]

I think your Nova Scotia guy knows his stuff.  It stands to reason that (using the same hp motor), the "smaller supply" pump will deliver better against high pressure (i.e., low water in the well) ... as he suggests, one should look at the individual pump curves to make the best choice.  And, as he says, too much unregulated tank reservoir can serve to empty the well.  Tanks can be multi-purposed ... a small free-flow one ("snubber") to eliminate pressure spikes and water-hammer ... a larger one (free flow-in with restricted out-flow) to help smooth-out pressure drops caused by water demand.  I agree with the four-wire pump motor set up.

The system should be a match between the supply (the recovery rate of the well) ... and the demand (the water consumption rate of the household).

But don't analyze to the point of stagnation ... we all know of "analysis paralysis".

[Alasdair]

analysis paralysis sounds about right! I think I've probably over examined this one!
Thanks JRR
Al

[glenn kangiser]

As JRR said -- the last guy knows his stuff.  There was BS in some of the other stuff as I see it.

The pump curves show what is happening at pressure and depth so the 10 gpm while producing a lot at high water pumping level drops off faster than the lower volume pumps.  More horse power is not necessary and would likely be detrimental as the pump associated with it would possibly overpump your well or waste power.

So the last guy is giving you the straight poop.  We also always put the check valve at the tank even if there is one on the well.
The larger tank allows the pump to run longer before shutting off or restarting.  Constant starting and stopping uses more power and is not good for the pump.  Most US fixtures and faucets etc are 2 gpm or less.

If sizing spinkler systems for landscaping etc.  they usually try to use enough water in each station to keep the pump running steady rather than starting and stopping.  It is more efficient that way.

If there is a chance of over pumping the well then a safety shutoff is needed to prevent dry running that will ruin the pump.  A good pump man can test the well more accurately than the driller if desired.

[Alasdair]

You have confirmed what I was already thinking! 
Thanks for all your help, I'm going to order the stuff next week.
I think I have had too much time to think about things this winter! There is definately such a thing as too much information!
Cheers,
Al

[Alasdair]

details of installing the pump are here
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6980.msg91635#msg91635