Pelosi - $15000 Socialist insurance policy or 5 years in prison

[MountainDon]

Wait a minute... I don't think anyone here said that the poor were... "lazy, stupid, criminal, and/or basically immoral."

What was said was some people make poor choices. They frequently don't learn from those poor choices. They make poor choices serially. Why select a TV that fills the wall across the room when a smaller and less expensive one would be good enough and leave money for something else? We own a 26" LCD TV. It sits on the coffee table closer to the sofa and provides a wonderful picture. If it hadn't been for the digital over the air broadcast change we'd still have the old Toshiba tube set we bought in 1999, but using a converter box with a TV and the old DVD recorder was a hassle. So now we have a new TV and a new DVR. Hey, that's another thing!! ... Broadcast TV for free vs. cable or satellite subscriptions.

I have a dear relative who had the same upbringing, same chances in early life, as I did. We are only a few years apart in age, but a world apart in terms of being able to look after ourselves in the past, present and future. I can not comprehend some of the choices they freely made in their life. I love them, but I don't see why what I see as my smarter choices means that I should pay for their errors. I am not perfect. I have wasted money, done foolish things, but on the whole can pay my own way.

[Sassy]

Good posts, Stinky & Frank!  I agree wholeheartedly!  I've been a nurse for 20yrs, my sister & a good friend worked in ER for close to 20 yrs as I am currently doing (8 yrs).  I work for the Veterans Administration but still see the same abuse.  People go to the ER because they don't want to wait for a scheduled appt, don't want to wait for a same day appt, forgot about their appt, etc etc.  There are very few REAL emergencies...  if their income is low enough, they won't hesitate to call an ambulance because they know they won't have to pay for it - you wouldn't believe the minor things people call ambulances for!

Many are down & out & granted, there's a lot of people psychologically scarred from the wars they've been in, but the alcoholism, drug use & smoking is rampant.  Many complain that they have no money, but still continue with those behaviors - yes, they are addictive, yes, often they are self-medicating, but we put them through program after program, as soon as they get out, they are back to doing the same things until they get so down & out that they call the paramedics to bring them in so they can stay for a few days to dry out, get medical care & some decent food & then they are back out on the streets again & this goes on over & over & over...  

My sis & friend & other nurses I know who work in the private sector or county hospitals/ER's say there are seldom even any English speaking patients in the ER.  The hospitals are expected to pay for translators & all the health care with no or little reimbursement.  Tell me a country I can go to & get that type of care?

I had never gone to the ER for myself, in my life, until this year & ended up using the ER 2x's.  I'm thankful that when I got so sick last spring, we were close by our little hospital in the mtns - the ER took excellent care of me, got me shipped out to a large hospital who could care for me in a timely manner & there were no complications.

Now, compare that with a couple months ago when I sustained a laceration across my hand - I could see the tendons, bones & blood vessels - was just gonna put butterfly bandaids on it but didn't know about the infection potential - couldn't wash it myself because when the water touched the wound, it sent me through the roof due to nerves being exposed.  Also didn't know if I had a fracture.  Anyway, I had worked a 12.5hr shift, got off at midnight, got home, accidently slammed my hand in the door, drove 30min back to town, got lost for another 45min down in the bad side of town at closing time for the bars & the fair was going on.  Got to ER approx 3am - didn't see a doc until 8:30am, didn't get the wound washed up until 9:30am, got sutured & finally out by around noon...  

The ER waiting room was full of non-English speaking people, the hallways in the back where treatment was given for the overflow was full of non-English speaking people, interpreters were being called for over the loudspeaker, it was a chaotic mess!  This hospital/ER is a level I trauma center but it is overwhelmed with so many non-emergent problems.  Believe me, I would have never have gone if I didn't think I might have something broken or the risk for infection.  At that, going for all those hours without having the wound cleansed - being in the dirty waiting room exposed to all the colds, flu, exotic diseases (I worked there as a student nurse & took care of both adults & children & neonates).  Most of the kids I took care of could not speak English, neither could their families, they had all kinds of infectious diarrheas, worms, lice, & who knows what else.  The babies in the neonatal ICU that I took care of (I worked in the stepdown area where the babies were a little bigger & not at as much risk) were mostly from crack cocaine moms.  Now the big problem is meth.  I see that at the VA, also - you'd think people who are 40-50-60y/o would have grown out of this behavior but they haven't.

Anyway - when I take care of the patients, I give my all to them.  I've been injured several times trying to keep  drunk patients from falling down.  I've seen my co-workers bit, hit, cussed at, threatened, etc.  I walked into a room one time to bring a meal to one of my co-worker's pt & he kicked me in the chest because he was mad at her, cussing & yelling at her.  We get pts coming in by ambulance yelling, cursing, threatening to kill us as they're wheeled through the door.  We get pts who haven't taken a bath for a month, dried urine, feces, vomit all over, belligerent, yet we give compassionate care & the best care we possibly can.  I often feel like I'm putting my license on the line because it can be so busy you don't even get a break for over 12 hrs.  Sometimes another patient will be listening to someone ranting & raving because they had to wait a couple hrs & that pt will say to us "I'm just grateful that I can receive free care & you've always treated me really well, I understand when I have to wait awhile, that there are other sicker pts being seen & you all are doing the best you can."  We have a lot of patients who are very courteous & appreciative which makes up for those who aren't & makes it worthwhile.  We realize people aren't at their best when they aren't feeling good...  

Those are the horror stories.  What does that have to do with gov't run health insurance?  Health care is already so humongous there is no individuality - the docs have to be part of some big conglomerate as they can't afford the cost of malpractice insurance or all the other expenses in having their own office - they are mandated by the DRG's that the gov't has set (diagnostic something something - can't remember right now).  The gov't already has health care in its grips - the ER's & HMO's are just a symptom of the often unreasonable regulations the gov't puts on health care.  Sure we want uniform, good health care, but docs can't use their own brains, education & experience anymore because they will get dinged if they happen to disagree with the guidelines that have been set up.  Hospitals are closing the ER's so things just get worse & worse.

I just talked to a relative up in Canada - she's been on a waiting list for quite awhile - she needs neck surgery from an old car accident.  So much for socialized medicine...

I am glad the safety nets are there - but that's exactly what they should be used for.  People now-a-days make it their career in life seeing how many freebies they can get so that they don't have to use the money they spend on satellite TV, cell phones, wireless for their computers & video games, alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, clothes, etc. for necessities.

At one point, I was a single mom with 2 young sons.  I was enrolled back in college to get my nursing degree, was getting no child support & ended up on welfare for a couple yrs.  For some reason, I never qualified for food stamps, but I did get a little every month to help w/expenses, got free healthcare & took advantage of the school loans & grants available.  Once I graduated, I have worked as a nurse ever since.  I'd always worked before that time & worked while going to school as much as I could.  I am very thankful that the safety net was there for me & don't begrudge others for using it when they have a need for it.  

The trouble is, so many in today's society think everything is owed them & spend so much time scamming it, that they have lost sight of reality!  (that includes our politicians, the big guys running the Federal Reserve & on & on & on)

Ok, end of rant!

(guess I'll still post this, MtnDon posted again while I was ranting)

[RainDog]

I'm very glad that everyone here can pay their own way, and pat themselves on the back for it.

This thread, however, turned ugly almost right out of the chute. One poster went so far as to suggest that health care should only be made available to those who can afford it, thereby letting the "process of selection" take care of the problem. They soon got their PC together and edited the offensive line out, but that sentiment seems to be indicative of the tone through much of this thread.

I love to congratulate myself on my successes in life as much as the next guy, but when poverty comes into the conversation I've always had the tendency to think "There, but by the grace of God, go I". Many if not most of our circumstances are dictated not by what fine, upstanding fellows we are, but by the luck of the draw. I've never felt myself somehow personally responsible, for example, for the color of my skin, the geography I was born in, and the economic and educational standing of my parents. I got lucky. I'm sure that everyone here has skated through plenty of "bad choices" by virtue of conditions completely out of anyone's control. Some people aren't so lucky.

Although I don't pretend to understand the health care plan beyond the simple basics, I can assure you that my ultimate decision on its merits will not revolve around whether or not poor people deserve health care, or whether or not I want to shoulder the costs of some freeloader's care, because I know that we're paying for it in any case, indirectly. What I want is what is best for this country as a whole, and my personal little gripes concerning "those people" won't come into play.

[SardonicSmile]

I apologize to anyone I offended, I did get a little rude.

[StinkerBell]

Raindog,

I do not think anyone here is patting themself on their back. Not at all.

I find this ironic that somehow the people here have no sympathy for the poor. Considering this board  help's teach or reach out to those who want to work and learn. Is there some government program out there that offers people how to build their own home? how to live independent or with very little money as this board and its fellow posters? The majority of us here are willing to live without. We give tips on how to store food, how to get heat, how to build, how to garden.  Follow the tips here and a family of four can live probably for less then 30K a year very comfy. It is an issue  of Want's Vs Needs, and that is what the majoirty of problems seem to be, Want's Vs Need's.

[RainDog]

 Hey, Stink, I love this forum. Don't get me wrong.

But you do have to admit that within this thread are numerous examples of a them-against-us mindset, which I find to be not only mean-spirited and short thinking, but to be not even germane to the issue.

I personally couldn't give a hoot whether Joe Blow the welfare queen deserves anything. I care about whether some universal healthcare plan would make for a more stable and secure society, as well as whether the plan is even economically viable, which I find questionable at best.

I can't help but sense fear in more than a couple of these posts. Fear of someone who doesn't have much that what little they have will be taken away. A knee-jerk and emotional response to a very complicated question. There's no answers in anecdotes about grasping and greedy poor people we've seen, and nothing to be gained from assuring each other of how lacking they are of all our fine qualities. That's only a distraction, and a cheap one at that.

The issue is whether the plan is good for our society and country as a whole, not whether it's more icing on the cake for some crackhead in the projects with his big screen TV and bad life choices. This is only a question of morality in the most shallow reading.

[StinkerBell]

Raindog,

Thanks for the response, it feels warm and friendly  Love good dialogue.

I do find something interesting....This is only a question of morality in the most shallow reading.

Lets have a great conversation on this, if you don;t mind. I do believe it will lend itself beautifully to the discussion.

Where exaclty do we get morality? Who defines it?

[muldoon]

I have tried to stay away from this thread. 

raindog, I agree that many people are left behind in the world today.  Me and my sister were raised by a single mom, and we were on the food stamp program when I was a child.  I remember government cheese, and the free watery milk.  My mother now is on disability after having a multitude of heart problems.  She gets a check from the government every month because she cannot work.  Please don't make this an emotional issue when it clearly is not.  No one wants to see people suffering and no one wants to be an advocate for that. 

But the facts behind the issue remain what they are.  The united states is broke.  fdic is bankrupt now, social security is bankrupt now, not some future date - right now.  By far the largest expense the government has today is health care.  Last month we had the treasury secretary in front of congress telling congress the most important issue in the united states is health care, not the credit crises, not the dollar, not the things one would expect the treasury secretary to speak about - this not about doing the right thing for people.  It is about saving money by limiting expenses in health care.  I don't care how they spin this that is the bottom line.  Anyone who thinks healthcare will improve by giving it to the government and making all doctors government employees is delusional. 

[RainDog]

Seriously, Stink?

Well, to my thinking, morality is simply a time-proven set of codes designed to encourage behavior which ultimately benefits the family, extended family, tribe, or civilization.

A sound moral code will enable a group to survive and thrive, while an unsound one can lead to extinction.

Though I may think that I don't eat my neighbors because that would be "wrong" or a sin, ultimately it's because it would rob my group of any knowledge, skills, or manpower that neighbor may have to offer. 

The generally altruistic moral codes of the West, provided by the traditions of Judeo-Christianity, tweaked by the Age of Enlightenment and other sources, has propelled us to levels of comfort, security, and technological advances unimaginable to past civilizations.

The cannibals of Fiji, and their moral code, are no longer with us.

[RainDog]

 
Muldoon, it appears that we are in agreement.

[StinkerBell]

My point is that Morals have been handed out by God.  Yet our government has said that it can not have God in it. Ironic aint it. 



muldoon I really think you just covered it all.  What a way to steal someone thunder. Simple yet spot on!

[Sassy]

I also agree that if you need health care, it should be available.  What health care is absolutely necessary?  Do I go to the ER because I have the sniffles?  Or do I call an ambulance because my finger hurts?  Do I come into the ER everyday  w/the same minor complaint & use up resources that others, who have legitimate problems, will not have access to or will have to wait that much longer.

If you could see some of the ambulance calls we receive, you would understand the abuse & waste of resources.  Those that have to pay out of their pockets will use any means to get themselves to the ER, even if they are having a heart attack, due to the cost.   Those who don't have to pay, due to income, don't even give it a 2nd thought... and the paramedics/EMT's can't question it.

That is why I, for one, give anecdotal stories, so that people see what is really happening. 

Where do we draw the line?

As for the people on CP - through the years, I've seen how most also do volunteer work other than giving advice here on CP, many give of their resources to help the needy.

Just because people don't want to put an outrageous, totally confusing, pork filled, unwieldy conglomerate of no one really knows what into law w/threats of fines & jail time for those who refuse to be a part of it, doesn't mean they are not compassionate, caring, generous, intelligent & try to be wise in the use of theirs & others resources. 

[Don_P]

Perhaps my opinion is unclear, I do believe in health care for all. Paid for by all according to ability.
You all seem to want health care for all, and yet seem unwilling to vocalize a payment plan. How are you proposing we pay for those who do not pay?

[Sassy]

That's the $64,000 question   or should I say $trillion + 

[Don_P]

They seem to be offering a plan that will cover and distribute the cost of the poor among the rest of us, is this the part you object to?

[Sassy]

I object to a massive spending bill that the majority of the Senate haven't read in totality, with additional add-ons that no one but those who are writing up them up, have read.  The constituents haven't even had a chance to read it all - I've read parts but they keep adding on more stuff, plus a lot of the wording gets so convoluted, you don't know what you might be signing on to.

Once it becomes law & all the little quirks & perks & pork start rising their heads to the light, if I don't agree or want to be a part of it, I will still be extorted for the 2.5% of my income to pay for it with threats of fines/prison or both. 

Yes, I know we are paying for it already - that was why I asked the question "what type of care is necessary?"  If persons go to the ER for frivolous reasons, come in over & over for the same minor thing, call an ambulance for whatever minor reason (just because you don't have transportation & you've got it into your head that you want to see a doc for a sore finger, doesn't mean you call an ambulance for transportation!).  There should be some standards, there should be even small co-pays of $5-10.  If someone had to pay even a small amt who ordinarily doesn't pay anything, they would think twice before coming into an ER just because they sneezed for the 1st time that day (believe it or not, those are reasons people come in!). 

Or maybe community service in exchange for healthcare...  we sure could use more volunteers around the hospital to run specimens to the lab, answer the phone, wheel someone to xray, help clean & change the sheets on the guerneys, etc.  It all falls on the nurses to do which takes time away from taking care of of the pt.  We don't always have a health aide to help with those things, we don't have a secretary to answer the phone & do the calling that needs to be done to different depts to help coordinate pt care.  Sometimes the phone is ringing several x's a minute.  If there are only 2 nurses & you both are at the bedside of  patients or one has gone to xray with a pt leaving the other to watch up to 10-12 pts, answer the phone & triage new pts just coming in to make sure a seriously ill pt isn't missed & sits out in the waiting area getting sicker or as has happened in some cases, dying right there 

Yes, high paid management needs to get out in the thick of things.  Seems like we just get more & more layers of administration running around with clipboards looking important actually impeding the flow of care.  They need to see 1st hand what the situation is.  This is going on all across the US in every hospital!  Health care is at a breaking point! 

So why do we let people who are here illegally get all the benefits of legal aliens or citizens?  And for free?  Why do we let a person come across the border just to have a baby which immediately becomes a citizen & then qualifies for free health care (don't forget labor & delivery care isn't cheap - then you get a critically ill baby, it's even more expensive), welfare, food stamps, education...  I don't know - why do so many people think they are entitled to a free ride?

I don't begrudge the help to people who really need it - we have friends who have illnesses such as diabetes or seizures who have had to go on social security disability, my brother is on social security disability after 2 brain surgeries, open heart surgery & neck cancer.  He gets his care under his wife's health insurance.  He really qualifies for SS disability.  But they are still giving back to the community.  They go to yard sales & purchase bedding, appliances, clothes etc & give it to a Christian organization who distributes it to anyone who has a need, for free.  They take the stuff home, wash all the clothes & bedding, clean up or fix things that need it, so that it is in good condition.  They spend part of their week, every week, doing this, to give back to the community.

There's some serious flaws that need to be worked out before a 2000+ page bill get placed into law.  There needs to be some expectations of payment by those who are able to - whether volunteering, doing what my brother & SIL do, or whatever in exchange for health care, welfare, whatever. 

Our country is bankrupt!  Another huge layer of bureaucracy is not going to improve things...   You can't keep robbing the golden goose (taxpayers), one of these days, she's gonna die. 

Back to Stinkerbell & Raindog's comments about morality...  whose morality?  Is there an ultimate truth that gives us morals?  I know Stinkerbell & myself believe in the God of the Bible.  But most people today say that "it is all relative, there are no absolutes."

con't in next frame...

[StinkerBell]

Those who can not pay are currently being distributed among us through high fees for service. Who do you think picks up the slack for the poor? Thats right, those who pay. Once again, those who cannot pay do not get turned away from an ER and many clinics have sliding scale fees and if you can not really pay there are county clinics and medicare. It's not the really poor in this country who do not have insurance. It is really the lower middle class or working class poor that do not want the expense of insurance and use their funds for other things they deem they need. A good majoirty gamble they do not need a doctor/medical care.  I am not saying there are not those few who fall through the cracks by a job change or a layoff, so the government has stepped in before and made the offer of COBRA for those. Guess what, they can't afford what the government said that has to be provided., hmm makes you ponder doesn't it?

We really need to stop thinking and using the emotional argument that its the absolute poor among us, because those individuals that are truly poor and in poverty have nets to catch them through medicare, county clinics and sliding scale fees. The issue is the lower middle class.

[Sassy]

 Let me tell you a story...

There was an older couple visiting the Netherlands.  They were looking for a place to buy tickets to ride the train.  They came upon a couple of young women - late teens, early 20's & asked them if they knew where to buy tickets.  The young women said "oh, you don't have to buy tickets, we've been riding for a week without any & no one has ever asked us for a ticket!"

Let me dissect this little story...  

Multiply those 2 girls by 100's-1000's each month, millions each year - where is the money going to come from to run the trains?

Now we need ticket takers because the people have learned they can ride without tickets & no one will check.

The ticket taker lets his/her friends ride for free if he gets a little kickback.

Now we need a supervisor over the ticket taker, but he's not entirely honest either, after all, we all do what is right in our own eyes since there's no absolutes...  multiply the ticket takers & supervisors x's every train station...  now we need some offices & more bureaucracy to keep things running...  you can see where this story is leading.

Without a bottom line, without absolutes, there is chaos - that's where our country & most of the world are at.  It is taking more & more "administration" to get the work done & administration has found out it can be lucrative to take a little something on the side & on it goes.  Most of our politicians have honed their skills to a fine art.  They no longer work for the constituents, they have built themselves little fiefdoms & think they are little kings & queens!

When the people protest, hey, arrest or threat of martial law will put them in their places...

Anyway, as Pontius Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?"

[NM_Shooter]

I definitely feel that this is an US against THEM problem. 

My "US" consists of capitalists.  My "THEM" consists of socialists. 

No government based free healthcare.  You get what you can pay for.  Period.  If volunteer groups want to make funds available to clinics and ER, great! 

Quit demanding changes be made that will undermine the integrity of the care my family PAYS FOR.

Come after my gold .... be prepared to receive lead.   
 

[RainDog]

 Oh boy...

Did I read that right? Are you promising to shoot "them" if they attempt to collect taxes?

Given the context of this thread... no, there's no other way to read that.

I understand that this is a highly polarized and emotion-packed issue, but let's not get out of control here.

[NM_Shooter]

Please indicate where I used the word "shoot".

I have very serious issues with taxation without representation.  I am clearly not being heard by my "representatives".  I am already overtaxed and under appreciated by my government.  I pay more in taxes than most people earn, I donate more than most people pay in taxes, and I am fed up with lazy socialists who sit on their butts and want to strongarm me into additional taxation to support the ruin of the country I love. 

[glenn kangiser]

Agreed.

[Sassy]

I have very serious issues with taxation without representation.  I am clearly not being heard by my "representatives".  I am already overtaxed and under appreciated by my government.  I pay more in taxes than most people earn, I donate more than most people pay in taxes, and I am fed up with lazy socialists who sit on their butts and want to strongarm me into additional taxation to support the ruin of the country I love. 

Amen!

[RainDog]

Please indicate where I used the word "shoot".

That's just about as disingenuous a statement as can be made. Being a gun owner myself, I have to say that that kind of talk is just about the worst advertising for 2nd Amendment rights imaginable. Any gun-control advocate worth his salt would point to such statements as proof positive that private ownership of firearms should be limited.

Apparently the subject is simply too emotionally charged for some to discuss calmly, rationally, and in a reasonably mature manner, so I won't attempt it further. A waste of my time, obviously.

[Sassy]

I posted this in another link - a Lt Col of the US Army has this to say - gotta watch it all the way through...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2p91dvm6M