Pelosi - $15000 Socialist insurance policy or 5 years in prison

[Whitlock]

.5% is a start
And look at your sorce a gov. web site

Pox do you work for the goverment or what

Wake up man you think malpractice insurance and lawyers are cheap!

Who do you think pays that cost?

[Pox Eclipse]

Compared to the amount spent on health care annually, malpractice awards, insurance and lawyers are a pittance.  They certainly don't add up to any kind of reform that will make a dent in the problems our health care system is facing.  Our system is broken, and will result in more and more people unable to afford either health care or health insurance.  Cutting .5% does not allow you to wash your hands of it and announce, "Good enough!".

You said no more treatment without paying.  I sure hope you and your loved ones never face a chronic health care crisis that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, then your insurance company drops you.  Your heroic self-reliance is so courageous, until someone you love is in constant pain, and you can't raise the $300,000 for the treatment her doctor recommends.   I have been there, I live with it every day.  I have the best insurance money can buy, and they simply refused to pay for the stem cell transplant my wife needs. 

I am glad to hear your life doesn't have that kind of problem, and I honestly hope it never does, because it sucks. 

[glenn kangiser]

I have to disagree with you on the .5% cost, Pox.  Sassy works at a hospital as well as was recently hospitalized.

The defensive medicine is more like 50% of the real hospitalization cost as it includes tests for things that may not be tested for as well as medications mandated by protocols in order to prevent any possibility of a lawsuit for malpractice.

Medical lawsuits are started over anything at the drop of a hat.  Malpractice insurance is putting many doctors out of business.

[Pox Eclipse]

But that is only one case, Glenn.  Surely you don't think you can extrapolate Sassy's experience to all hospitalizations, do you?

As for malpractice insurance putting doctors out of business, did you read about what happened in Texas when they capped malpractice awards?  They went up!

Unfortunately, many people think insurance companies pay claims out of the premiums they collect, and that just isn't so.  They invest that money, and pay claims out of the capital gains.  That works great when the market is going up, but when the market crashes, insurance companies start raising rates to cover their losses in the market.

Malpractice awards have very little to do with malpractice rates.

[Whitlock]

Compared to the amount spent on health care annually, malpractice awards, insurance and lawyers are a pittance.  They certainly don't add up to any kind of reform that will make a dent in the problems our health care system is facing.  Our system is broken, and will result in more and more people unable to afford either health care or health insurance.  Cutting .5% does not allow you to wash your hands of it and announce, "Good enough!".

You said no more treatment without paying.  I sure hope you and your loved ones never face a chronic health care crisis that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, then your insurance company drops you.  Your heroic self-reliance is so courageous, until someone you love is in constant pain, and you can't raise the $300,000 for the treatment her doctor recommends.   I have been there, I live with it every day.  I have the best insurance money can buy, and they simply refused to pay for the stem cell transplant my wife needs. 

I am glad to hear your life doesn't have that kind of problem, and I honestly hope it never does, because it sucks. 

Do you think that this new heathcare plan will pay for your wifes treatment?

[Sassy]

Glenn wasn't using my experience for the 50%.  At least 50% of what our docs & nurse practitioners do is defensive medicine.  I hear them say that very thing several times a day.  

There are all sorts of expensive tests - MRI's, CT's, ultrasounds, just plain xrays, extensive lab tests, etc etc.  Their statements go something like this...  "I better order all these things, if I don't & there's something I missed, I'll be sued."  The cost of malpractice insurance is exorbitant - most lawsuits are settled out of court, so what the public sees, are the few that make it through the courts & into the news.

Not only do they have to do all these tests on the patients, but there are guidelines for someone who is diabetic (they have to be on a diabetes med, a cholesterol lowering med & an ace inhibitor (blood pressure med that supposedly protects the kidneys - it also causes a dry hacking cough in a good percentage of the patients).  That is just one disease...  you get to hypertension, congestive heart failure, emphysema & a myriad of other health problems - they all have their medications.  Almost all  require a person to be on a cholesterol lowering med (statin).  I would not EVER take a statin!  They cause liver & muscle damage.  Patients have to have their liver function checked out every 3-6 mo's to make sure the med isn't damaging it.  Someone who drinks alcohol & takes a statin is doing a double whammy on their liver.  And if they get a bad case of muscle pain/damage, that can cause rhabdomylosis - the breakdown of the muscles which is very serious & can cause kidney failure & even death!

Psych meds - that's another major area where a new med seems to come out on a weekly basis - I can't even keep track of them all.  Many of our patients are on several different types.  

I'm glad I'll be retiring within a year...  I couldn't stand behind a lot of the guidelines that the docs are expected to follow.  Vaccinations are just one of the questionable treatments.  

Anyway, I would venture to say that defensive medicine is even higher than 50%...  

[Pox Eclipse]

Do you think that this new heathcare plan will pay for your wifes treatment?

Like 70% of Americans under the proposed bill, I don't need it to pay for treatment; I have health insurance.  The current health care reform bill  would regulate the death panels the insurance companies are using to ration health care right now.  I want to change the law so that insurance companies can't come between doctors and their patients.

Anyway, I would venture to say that defensive medicine is even higher than 50%...  

Are there any reliable statistics to support that claim?  I don't see how we can expect to set any governmental policy based on anecdotal evidence.

[NM_Shooter]

Whitlock nailed it.

Liberals (pro socialists) are missing the big issue.....

THE PROBLEM IS NOT INSURANCE

The very first question we should ask is:  "why does healthcare COST so much?"  Note that I did not ask why insurance costs so much.  I've said it here before:  I have great insurance and crappy healthcare. 

1)  Too many are getting it for "free".  Socialized medicine means those with jobs pay for those without.
2)  The government has their nose in it.  Too many regulations, restrictions, and controls.  The US government has never, ever, improved anything over that which was already established under local control. 

Pox, I thought you liberal types were big on darwin and his theories.  Wouldn't darwin be a proponent of extinction for those who can not take care of themselves?  P.S.  I find it amusing that you are challenging others to back up their data.  I snorted Dr. Pepper through my nose when I read that.

[glenn kangiser]

Frank, I have heard that you should never take Dr. Pepper at face value, especially when he has been through your nose.  Check your facts, Frank....

[Pox Eclipse]

Pox, I thought you liberal types were big on darwin and his theories.  Wouldn't darwin be a proponent of extinction for those who can not take care of themselves?

Well, that is certainly a novel take on scientific theories.  By your reasoning, if I believe in the theory of gravity, I shouldn't ever fly in an airplane.  Now I've gone and blown my herb tea out my nose!

[RainDog]

Enormous difference between indifferent scientific Darwinism and Social Darwinist ethics, which anticipate eugenics and racist ideology.

In any case, letting the uninsured die isn't on the table, thank God. We have yet to sink to the depths of that primitivism.

[glenn kangiser]

RainDog, I seem to remember that when you go to a certain age or with certain problems that the government would stop your healthcare or deny you coverage in this new plan.  What could be in those 2000 unread pages?

Pox, I am a pilot and as a matter of fact, it is safer on the ground, sometimes....

Don't tell me - let me guess, but, after the herb tea it is the granola chunks...

[NM_Shooter]

Pox, I thought you liberal types were big on darwin and his theories.  Wouldn't darwin be a proponent of extinction for those who can not take care of themselves?

Well, that is certainly a novel take on scientific theories.  By your reasoning, if I believe in the theory of gravity, I shouldn't ever fly in an airplane.  Now I've gone and blown my herb tea out my nose!

I can't think of a better example of complete lack of logic, and misunderstanding of physical science.  Nicely done!

[Whitlock]

Do you think that this new heathcare plan will pay for your wifes treatment?

Like 70% of Americans under the proposed bill, I don't need it to pay for treatment; I have health insurance.  The current health care reform bill  would regulate the death panels the insurance companies are using to ration health care right now.  I want to change the law so that insurance companies can't come between doctors and their patients.

I will take that as a yes. You chase your tail a lot don't you

[StinkerBell]

Having the goverment run our medical system is ridiculous. I agree with Harry and would like to add we are promised "Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" not medical insurance. This will sound horrible however when it comes down to it it is a fee for service that has gone amuck.  It should have stayed a fee for service where a patient went to the doctor and then submitted a bill to their insurance company who payed a certain percentage.  Thus making the consumer more responsible for thier health and the cost. I truly believe that when it was taken out of the hands of the consumer (paying as they go) it was the beginning of the downfall. People became sheep and lost their fiscal resposibilty in their own care and maintence.  In a sense we became like those on the dole. Yes we pay for the insurance but we surrendered to much of our own personal responsibilty for the sake of convience and who has really read thier policy? Seriously, who understands what insurance they have and what is covered? It is a contract that people sign up for and I believe at least 90% of them have no idea what agreement they signed.  We have surrendered have truly have signed over our health for others to manage. At least with the 80/20 policy people paid more attention and had imo a greater choice in how toproceed with their treatment.

[NM_Shooter]

This pretty much sums it up.

[Whitlock]

That's a good one shooter.

Personally I think they should fix the economy frist

But I believe it is all part of a socialist plan to get us all to shut up and obay

[Woodsrule]

"But I believe it is all part of a socialist plan to get us all to shut up and obay"

Whitlock, you couldn't be more right. This ploy and the "global warming" ploy are nothing more than ways to control you. If govmint can control your very health, then what's left? Also, the "GREEN" folks want us to pay a FINE for being a successful country. Cap and Trade, Carbon Offsets, etc... are ways for some to take your money, keep some for them of course (Al Gore, et al) and then give some to countries they deem worthy. I haven't heard Obama and crew call for an investigation into the damning evidence coming from England.

[harry51]

Food for thought from http://www.citizenlink.org/CLtopstories/A000011651.cfm


Marriage Penalty Hidden in Health Care Reform


by Kim Trobee, editor

Higher premiums may discourage people from getting married.

A closer look at premium payments in both the House and Senate health care bills shows higher premiums that might discourage couples from tying the knot.

For instance, in the House version, an unmarried couple each making $30,000 a year would pay $1,320 combined each year for private health insurance.  If that couple chose to marry, their premium would jump to $12,000 a year, a difference of $10,680.

Allen Quist, a former Minnesota State legislator and current candidate for Congress, discovered the penalty while looking at numbers from the Committees on Ways and Means, Energy & Commerce, and Education & Labor.

"This extraordinary penalty people will pay, should they marry, extends all the way from a two-person combined income of $58,280 to $86,640, a spread of $28,360," he wrote in a blog post.  "A large number of people fall within this spread. As premiums for private insurance escalate, as expected, the marriage penalty will become substantially larger."

The Senate bill includes a similar penalty.

"The Senate bill stipulates that two unmarried people, 52 years of age, with private insurance and a combined income of $60,000, $30,000 each, will pay a combined cost of $2,483 for medical insurance," Quist wrote.  "Should they marry, however, they will pay a combined cost of $11,666 for insurance — a penalty of $9,183 for getting married."

The numbers are based on the government's definition of "poverty level."  Those above poverty level will pay higher premiums, and the excess would be redistributed to those in lower income levels.

Quist explains that the government's definitions will play a critical role in whether people will choose to get married.

"'Household' is defined in both bills as including those who can be claimed as dependents for federal income tax purposes, thereby clarifying that adults can avoid the marriage penalty by living together unmarried," he wrote.  "The new system provides a huge incentive for doing so."

John Helmberger, CEO of the Minnesota Family Council and Institute, said the middle class will once again take the hit financially.

"This hidden marriage penalty," he said, "hits hardest the very people that are most suffering from the pathologies resulting from the decline of marriage in our culture."

[SardonicSmile]

Many people on this thread have been biased and misleading. Do your own research.

The bill does not say that you will go to jail if you don't get government approved healthcare. You'll have to pay 2.5% if you choose not to take social healthcare, and you can still get any healthcare you want. The bill does not say that all people have to pay the same premium of $15000. The premiums are well proportioned compared to the average (non-government) healthcare.

I'm disgusted by all the "carrying bums on my back" comments, as if all the people living in low class/poverty conditions CHOOSE to be in the position they are. Some of you are completely incapable of seeing situations from more than one perspective.

[StinkerBell]

SardonicSmile,

Some of us have worked in the health care system for years. We have seen  the situation on many levels, and despite it all people do get treated in an ER even when they can not pay. Many people choose to get their nails done, their hair and wear designer clothes, but when they present at the ER they have no money. Yes they are probably at th poverty level, but its obvious they choose to spend their money differently.  I have seen many times over and over parents can not pay for their childrens Asthma medicine but they smell, no they stink of cigarettes and they step out to have a smoke while their child is getting a breathing treatment. They can afford their cigarettes but can not afford tylenol for their child. People who work in the health care give and give. So, when it comes to it people do get treated even though we know some are just abusing the system.

I kinda get tired of hearing about those in poverty that do not choose to be there. Some do you need to understand some do choose it, others have differing ideas on how to spend their money and others maybe caught between a hard place and a rock. but guess what, each state has medicare and other saftey lines for those willing to ask. They even have county run medical units but people refuse to go there because they just do not want to wait or hate the idea of going to a county clinic, because its beneath them. 

You say no one will go to jail if they don't get government health care bit they will have to pay 2.5%. Now if they refuse to pay I bet they will go to jail seeing that the IRS is probably going to be the administrator of the program and they like to get their money and have thrown many into jail for tax evasion.

So before telling me to do my own research, I highly suggest you spend 6 months working at an ER or a Dr's office and see what happens better yet work at a county clinic.

[SardonicSmile]

SardonicSmile,

Some of us have worked in the health care system for years. We have seen  the situation on many levels, and despite it all people do get treated in an ER even when they can not pay. Many people choose to get their nails done, their hair and wear designer clothes, but when they present at the ER they have no money. Yes they are probably at th poverty level, but its obvious they choose to spend their money differently.  I have seen many times over and over parents can not pay for their childrens Asthma medicine but they smell, no they stink of cigarettes and they step out to have a smoke while their child is getting a breathing treatment. They can afford their cigarettes but can not afford tylenol for their child. People who work in the health care give and give. So, when it comes to it people do get treated even though we know some are just abusing the system.

I kinda get tired of hearing about those in poverty that do not choose to be there. Some do you need to understand some do choose it, others have differing ideas on how to spend their money and others maybe caught between a hard place and a rock. but guess what, each state has medicare and other saftey lines for those willing to ask. They even have county run medical units but people refuse to go there because they just do not want to wait or hate the idea of going to a county clinic, because its beneath them. 

You say no one will go to jail if they don't get government health care bit they will have to pay 2.5%. Now if they refuse to pay I bet they will go to jail seeing that the IRS is probably going to be the administrator of the program and they like to get their money and have thrown many into jail for tax evasion.

So before telling me to do my own research, I highly suggest you spend 6 months working at an ER or a Dr's office and see what happens better yet work at a county clinic.

I never said there weren't bums out there that don't deserve free healthcare.

BUT.. there is no legal way to separate the sincere people from the bums. I'm willing to give the bums a free ride in order to help those few sincere people. You can't tell me that there is always a way out. I personally know two people that were born into tough situations that can't simply be "asked" out of.

You give and give? You make atleast 30,000 a year, and you're complaining about an extra 2.5% in order to ease suffering.

Sometimes people need a break. So what if people are wasting our money? Oh, right.. that's outrageous because this is the home of the American dream (greed).

[NM_Shooter]

I work with the poor in the north valley of ABQ.  My group provides financial assistance for those who need emergency help with rent, utilities, or food.  I am absolutely in the thick of working with the "poor".  As a requirement of our work, we have to make a home visit and fill out a report.  In three years of volunteer work, I can count on one hand the number of poor who didn't have at least one of the following:

1)  have a big screen TV
2)  reeked of tobacco
3)  were stoned / drunk

We err on the side of generosity, especially when there are kids in the home.  However, in almost every one of these cases, that family / person was in a bad condition because at some point in their lives they made one or more very bad decisions.  Poverty was not placed upon them... they went looking for it.  The sad thing is that they keep making bad decisions.   We have a LOT of programs that will allow people to improve their quality of life through hard work and sacrifice.  But that is the hard way.  I find us as a species to be overwhelmingly lazy.  Not all, of course, but an overwhelming amount. 

In the US, we have the richest "poor" in the world.  We make being poor a rewarded lifestyle, and the liberal party promotes it as a means for gathering support.  The means for funding this lifestyle is socialism, which is exactly what this new "health care" bill is all about.

I choose to work with the poor as a volunteer.  All of our funds (every last bit) comes as a donation from my parish.  I donate time, talent and treasure to my community, and will give the shirt off my back to someone who needs it. 

But God help those who come to me and demand my shirt. 

-f-

P.S.  Greed is not purely a bad characteristic.  If we were to eliminate every job that was ultimately in place because of someone's desire to create wealth, what do you think would remain?   And BTW.. if you think that a medical worker / nurse who gets paid $30k is compensated anywhere near for what they contribute, you should mention this the next time you are on a gurney.   

[MountainDon]

1)  have a big screen TV

So true, in my experience too. Delivering Christmas cheer to needy families with kids over the past half dozen Christmases, nearly everyone of them had a bigger TV than we do. Much bigger is some cases. Sorta makes me wonder what I'm doing at times, why we bother.

[nearly jaded]

[RainDog]

 Yeah, those folks living under the poverty level have it made with their big television sets, don't they? Might be the only decent thing they own, and since they can't afford to do anything much else but watch a used TV that they picked up somewhere...

Obviously livin' the life of Riley, they are.

Seriously, though, I do understand the need for a certain economic class to demonize the poor as being lazy, stupid, criminal, and/or basically immoral. They have to see people in that position as being somehow basically different or inferior, or else they'd have to come to grips with the fact that they themselves could be easily on the same boat with only a couple of bad turns of luck.

You insulate yourself from that scary possibility by pretending that it couldn't happen to you. You aren't one of THEM.