Pelosi - $15000 Socialist insurance policy or 5 years in prison

[glenn kangiser]

http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153583

PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail
JCT Confirms Failure to Comply with Democrats' Mandate Can Lead to 5 Years in Jail
Friday, November 06, 2009

Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail.  The JCT letter  makes clear that Americans who do not maintain "acceptable health insurance coverage" and who choose not to pay the bill's new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

[Pox Eclipse]

So what is the problem here?  If both houses of Congress pass a tax, and the President signs it, do you think people who break the law should not go to prison?  

If you want to debate the merits of compulsory insurance or socialized medicine, those are legitimate topics for debate.  But if you are saying we should not prosecute and imprison those who break the law, I think you have bigger problems with the way this country works than the possibility of socialized medicine.

For the record, I am in favor of tyranny by the majority.  It may not be the best system, but it is way ahead of whatever is in second place.

[glenn kangiser]

You have got to be kidding - right?

Most people can barely pay their rent let alone $15000 for some screwed up government insurance.  I see the elite have just found another way to rip off the taxpayers - and then imprison them for not having a good job because they have allowed corporate America to take the good jobs overseas - where again, only the Elite will have the money.

The majority does not or likely soon will not have that kind of money.

These guys might welcome 5 years in prison as it is better than what they can afford now.

[Don_P]

Glenn, you took the far end comments from a far end paper and are running with it...
I like ya anyway  

As a self employed worker I pay my own way. Our premiums have been going up. We carry a high deductable and minimal insurance, basically hospitalization/surgery coverage. We pay out of pocket for doctors visits and meds. In a good year this coverage runs about 12% of gross income, this year it's looking like it will be 40-50% of gross due to the economy. We also used it this year so the deductable, doctors visits and meds dip into that remaining pie. and yeah, they just jacked the rate. The only way it works is I was not the one in the hospital, if that happens in the downturn we will likely sink. I would feel very badly for the poor SOB they send out to try to evict me. I doubt I'm alone in this situation. This has trouble written all over it.

I would border on the affordability credits so doubt I would get discounted coverage, I think our out of pocket expenses this year would have just hit the cap (they have folks that figure this stuff out and it looks to me like they have done their homework, "allow them one nostril above water").  I'll carry insurance one way or the other if I possibly can. I'll look at what they offer and compare it to the coverage I have now. If they offer more coverage for the same price or better coverage for a lower price, of course I will take it, other wise I'll stick with what I've got. More than a few people I work around are uninsured. From my understanding of it roughly 10% of my premium covers them and is a good bit of the reason my premiums have been rising. Those that are riding on my insurance now should have to pay their own way, I already have rationed care due to them and they effectively are getting socialized medicine. I don't think freeloaders should get a relaxed vacation, we need gravel on our road. If everyone ends up on the government plan then we might as well socialize it, if not then I'm fine with keeping private insurance available. If we all end up in jail, well, they'll go bankrupt soon enough. I'm not entirely sure that hasn't already happened, but that, is another topic.

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Don.  I need a true friend.

Even if the Repubs (I am anti-authoritarian- neither party) brought up the worst case here it is supported by the paperwork.

Sassy and I also carry insurance as I am self-employed but I know lots and lots of people who could never afford this and the economy will likely get worse before it gets better ... unless you are a politician - either flavor - and have investments in the insurance business and have the ability to make mandatory laws to support your investments..

[Pox Eclipse]

Breaking News:

The House passes health care bill in bipartisan vote, 200-215.

This is very good news.  Now the Senate needs to man-up and do the same. 

[Virginia Gent]

I'm having trouble finding the part in the Constitution where it says Congress can force me to buy health insurance or throw me in jail. Do you know why we are a Republic and not a Democracy? Because the founders thought that Democracy (Tyranny of the Majority) was the worst form of government.

Now is the time to spread the word about Jury Nulifaction people. Don't carry it if you don't want it and when they throw you on trial, hope that the people there find you innocent for breaking an unjust and unconstitutional law.

[RainDog]

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!

[RainDog]

Important passages in the 2,000 page legislation - WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704795604574519671055918380.html

[Pox Eclipse]

Important passages in the 2,000 page legislation - WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704795604574519671055918380.html

That's not a factual WSJ article.  That's an opinion piece by a partisan contributor.  Her conclusions are way out in right field.  Scare the sheeple is the Republican strategy.  That's all they have left.

This is going to happen.  The people want it to happen.  We will no longer be dominated by those in the pocket of the insurance companies and big pharma.  Tyranny by the minority is the worst form of government.  Democracy works!

[glenn kangiser]

I thought Bi-partisan meant both voted for it.

"The gargantuan Democratic measure passed 220 to 215, with a single Republican vote, capping a contentious daylong debate that underscored the ideological divide separating the two parties over healthcare."

Doesn't look like much "Bi" there.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/healthcare/la-na-healthcare-house8-2009nov08%2C0%2C1723384.story

[glenn kangiser]

A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him. Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!

I like that.

[StinkerBell]

I hope the state of Texas offers National Health Care nullification on its ballot next year.

[Pox Eclipse]

I hope all the red states nullify it.  Then the conservatives can explain to their constituents why they can't pay less for their health insurance, or be protected from discrimination on the basis of preexisting conditions, or not be denied coverage only after they become sick.

That sort of nullification legislation has a name; the Throw Out the Republicans Act.

[NM_Shooter]

Everybody remember the liberal woman, who right after Obama was elected exclaimed "I am so happy now, I can't believe it... I'll never have to worry about putting gas in my car again!!!"

I wonder how much free gas she's gotten in the last year?

This health care mess is similar to that.  Lots of folks jumping up and down thinking Santa just came.

Show me the free gas.

[RainDog]

Everybody remember the liberal woman, who right after Obama was elected exclaimed "I am so happy now, I can't believe it... I'll never have to worry about putting gas in my car again!!!"

I wonder how much free gas she's gotten in the last year?

This health care mess is similar to that.  Lots of folks jumping up and down thinking Santa just came.

Show me the free gas.

No gas costs, no mortgage, and now "free" healthcare. It's like... like HEAVEN.

Catch y'all later. I'm headed out to gaze at the unicorns.

[MushCreek]

'Course, if they DO throw me in jail, it saves me having to build a house, or buy food, or go to work, or anything. This plan just may have some merit after all.

[NM_Shooter]

Unicorns?  Obama brought the world unicorns?

Yaayyyyy!!!

(I wonder if they taste "half" as good as Ibex? )

[glenn kangiser]

One of the ladies said Obama was going to pay all of her bills - mortgage and all as I recall.  May have had a thing going on the side we were not privy to.

Just remember - there is no free lunch.  To give it to you they have to take twice as much from you.  Telling you it is $15000 up front?  Look for it to cost you $30000 at least and be screwed up royal at that. 

Check the track record.

[ScottA]

Well first of all the $15k is just for the policy. you'll be out another $5300 in co-pays the way I read it so now it's $20,300 already and that's before you add in the government waste factor. If you look at how this thing is set up it's going to hurt the middle class to the tune of 20% of their income. The poor will get free or nearly free care and the rich won't care about the $20k so basicly the middle class will fund most of the healthcare for the poor. Maybe a good time to be poor. The bottom line is this is just a tax increase in disguise. Next will come rationing and long waits for stuff like MRI's. Unless you're rich or connected that is. I'm sure they'll have seperate services for those folks without the waits and rationing.

[Don_P]

Medicare took good care of my in laws, SS is still running (self employed, I pay both halves), my bills still seem to come through the mail just fine, cash for clunkers was extended due to its popularity.

Your friends who cannot afford insurance under this plan will be offered insurance at an adjusted rate if their income is less than 4x the poverty level. The plan they are proposing looks like it will cost me about the same as what I have now, deductable is similar and will increase benefits, it also can't kick us out. That's a big plus in my world. I'm still waiting to see what they really offer, its all smoke and mirrors right now.

As far as I'm concerned if a person chooses not to be covered that is fine, simply don't expect medical care unless you can show an ability to pay. We as a society have decided that option is unpalatable and force the doctor to provide care and seek compensation later. We can fix it at either end, the death panel sits in the admissions office in a truly free system. I am paying for the poor now, am already rationed, so nothing new there, that's probably why the cost seems very similar to me.

VA Gent's proposal probably wouldn't work, from my experience that juror would be dismissed in the selection process, if it ever went to a jury trial, which I kinda doubt. A young single person can go uninsured without much consequence, their illness or death only affects them. Indeed life is their strawberry, to be plucked and savored if they wish. As people take on more responsibility as they mature some begin to realize that their illness or death means both tigers get a full meal and there is just the one strawberry. With a few more decades under my belt, my spouse's life if I am sick or dead causes me more concern than water skiing in a waterfall ever did. I don't mind carrying insurance, what I'm tired of is carrying an ever increasing number of freeloaders. This seems to be an attempt to limit that.

If you see another way I'm open to other ideas. I can use my incredible influence around the jobsite to forward your plan   

[harry51]

I am paying for the poor now, am already rationed, so nothing new there, that's probably why the cost seems very similar to me.

A young single person can go uninsured without much consequence, their illness or death only affects them. Indeed life is their strawberry, to be plucked and savored if they wish.

Well, Don,  the House has voted to use gov't coercion to pluck that youthful strawberry by making all those carefree young people pay for the infirmities of their elders and betters whether they like it or not. By forcing people who really don't need insurance to buy it anyway, premiums should come down alright, because those who really don't need it likely won't use it much.So their premiums would be more accurately characterized as "contributions" if it weren't for the inconvenient fact that mandatory charity is nothing more than legalized robbery.

You're right, it's all smoke and mirrors.......and lies and deceit. And it always will be. All we can hope is that the young and healthy will get $15,000 per year's worth of warm and fuzzy feelings, to kind of balance out the rage and frustration they'll feel because the gov't has seen fit to set their priorities and spend their money for them.

[NM_Shooter]

Yeah, but we also get brand new titles!

Comrade!

[Don_P]

That is one way of looking at it Harry. I can think of examples right off the bat though. An uninsured young nephew got cancer. I took an uninsured coworker to the ER, and then to another ER. I decided right then I wanted better care than writhing in the back of a pickup. A buddy ran his finger into my tablesaw, I wasn't home my wife took him in, no insurance. I had a hernia, my boss wrote it up as an accident. Was it job related, I have no idea. That is only an issue because we don't have generalized coverage.

I guess the point is, no the young are not medically cheap, their deaths simply do not financially affect others as severely. I am probably now running as cheap as this body has ever run. So no, I don't agree with your assertion. At middle age and middle class I'm the one getting dumped on and it isn't looking any worse than the usual, just another potential choice.

I notice you all are quoting $15K for everyone, the smoke and mirrors are coming from both sides.

I pay for schools, and buses, and teachers. I have no kids, should I experience rage and frustration? They're building a brand new secure prison in town, I probably won't even get to see it, should I feel robbed? Have I gotten out of insurance or the government what I've paid in? No. Should I be angry about that?

What we have isn't working, do you have a plan?

[harry51]

How about a voluntary way to finance the medical needs of those truly in danger of being bankrupted by health problems? There are lots of people, foundations, and corporations in this country who donate billions every year for an enormous number of different things. They often receive a tax incentive for those donations. Why not craft such an incentive specifically for this problem, and see if we can get the real, severe needs met without this gov't intrusion and coercion?

What about taking a hard look at the FDA's rules on drugs and the trials that make them so slow to come to market and expensive, not to mention establishing such a high cost of entry to market as to create a functional monopoly for the big players currently in place?

How about some kind of malpractice reform to bring the overhead down for medical professionals?

At middle age and middle class I'm the one getting dumped on and it isn't looking any worse than the usual, just another potential choice.

It would be just another potential choice if it was voluntary without penalty for choosing to opt out. But it's not. It's outrageously worse than usual. It's a massive loss of choice, not an additional choice. It's a huge sacrifice of liberty and the most intimate kind of self-determination for the promise of medical security, and "promise" is the operative word.

I pay for schools, and buses, and teachers. I have no kids, should I experience rage and frustration? They're building a brand new secure prison in town, I probably won't even get to see it, should I feel robbed? Have I gotten out of insurance or the government what I've paid in? No. Should I be angry about that?

I'm in the same boat regarding schools, etc. I've always felt that since I received an education in public schools, it's only fair that I contribute back for the ones coming up. I only feel rage and frustration when I learn the schools are being used for indoctrination as opposed to education, and I think it's a breach of civic duty to fail to feel outrage when our institutions are misused and perverted.

As for prisons, are we locking up a larger proportion of the population than we should, and if so, why? How could we avoid having predators roaming our neighborhoods while minimizing the size of the incarcerated population?

Insurance is voluntary so far; if everybody got out what they put in, it couldn't exist. According to your posts, you feel the money is well spent in exchange for the risk assumed by the insurance company. That's fine with me, but I reserve the right to follow a different path. I reject the idea that the gov't has been delegated the right to require me to assign my health risks. As long as insurance remains voluntary, neither one of us should be angry.

As far as gov't is concerned, thank God we're not getting all the gov't we're paying for!