Bear Spray vs. Firearms

[MountainDon]

The subject of backwoods encounters with bears has come up a few times here and there. Some of us have guns, some of us don't, some may have bear spray (concentrated pepper spray), some may have both, some trust in God.  Many have opined that bear spray may be, or is, the better choice. In my reading up I have come to the conclusion that the 45 revolver I wear most of the time up in the mountains is best for visual deterrance of the 2 legged type of predator.

Here's the latest, an article from today's Salt lake Tribune.

Wildlife encounters: If you meet a bear, don't shoot. Spray

If you're roaming bear country, your best protection against an unpleasant encounter is a can of bear spray, not a gun, according to Brigham Young University wildlife biologist Tom Smith.

    Smith's team, which included Stephen Herrero, a world authority on bear attacks, has studied 600 bear encounters in Alaska over two decades. In 72 incidents in which bear spray was used properly, the bear stopped charging more than 90 percent of the time, according to a study Smith published in the April edition of the Journal of Wildlife Management. People using guns, by contrast, stood a one-in-three chance of failing to deter the bear, according to an earlier study.

    "The probability is the bear spray will outperform a firearm and it's easy to see why. The spray is easy to deploy. The rifle is just difficult to use," Smith said. Stopping a charging bear with bullets required, on average, four hits.

    Most of the 72 bear spray deployments Smith studied involved grizzly bears; the rest were black and polar bears. His team studied newspaper accounts, anecdotes and reports from wildlife agencies to determine the bears' activity before being sprayed, the distance involved, time of day, wind effects, mechanical problems and dosage of spray. Of the 150 people involved, just three injuries were reported and none required hospitalization.

"Tom is the best person to do this study because he has so much hands-on experience with bears," said Chuck Bartlebaugh, a vocal bear-spray advocate who leads the Center for Wildlife Information in Missoula, Mont. "We need a similar study done for the Intermountain region with inland grizzly bears who tend to be more aggressive because they don't have the salmon runs."

    Last year was the worst on record for human-bear conflicts in Utah, with 203 black bear encounters, including a fatal mauling in American Fork Canyon. That total was substantially higher than in the previous four years combined, probably the result of poor natural food sources and a high number of fledgling juveniles leaving their home turf, according to Kevin Bunnell, large-mammal coordinator for the Division of Wildlife Resources.

    Utah's wet winter bodes well for the coming season, "but it can turn south in a hurry," Bunnell said. "A single late freeze can have a big impact. So can a hot, dry July or August."

    Smith's findings should debunk common reasons given for not carrying bear spray, which Smith calls ''an olfactory assault weapon.'' Although wind can interfere with spray accuracy, wind rarely reduced the spray's effectiveness, probably because most discharges occur in wooded areas and the spray exits the nozzle at 70 mph. His team found no instances in which the spray malfunctioned and only two instances in which the sprayers incapacitated themselves.

    "Bear spray diffuses potentially dangerous situations in the short term by providing the user time to move out of harm's way and allowing the bear time to reassess the situation and move on," Smith wrote. "When food or garbage is involved with bear conflict, bear spray is effective initially, but one can expect bears to continue returning until these attractants are removed or otherwise secured."

    Smith's study, funded by his former employer, the U.S. Geological Society and the Alaska Science Center, shows that bear spray can help conserve grizzlies, protected as a threatened species.

    Every fall in the lands around Glacier and Yellowstone national parks, elk hunters kill grizzly bears in self-defense. According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, between 1980 and 2002, 49 grizzlies were fatally shot by people protecting themselves around Yellowstone (accounting for nearly one in six of all known bear deaths). Another 23 were shot around Glacier.

    "In most cases there are no attempts to carry bear spray, much less use it. Every time a hunter decides to shoot instead of use bear spray they are making a decision they are going to set back grizzly bear recovery," said Brian Peck, of the Great Bear Foundation. "Had those people used bear spray, not only would [the bears] be alive, they would know that this red hot spray stuff will be really nasty and to avoid it and they would pass this information on. Bears are smart."

[MountainDon]

After much thought it seems to me that during an encounter with a bear, the thought process of a revolver wielder could go something like this; surprise at first contact and a little concern as the bear moves towards him. A self assured 'I'll show him who's boss' as he pulls the revolver from he holster, a satisfied smile as the first couple shots are loosed, disbelief, shock and fear as the bear doesn't miss a beat and charges harder now that he's really angry... As the bear tears off an arm or a leg, or bites his face/head, "maybe I should have bought that bear spray?"

Bear Spray is probably even better than the 45/70 Marlin.   

FWIW, some people believe bells attract bears because of their curiosity. Talking and other human noises may be better. 

There are several brands; do a Google. I like the Counter Assault brand over the others. It meets or exceeds all the EPA's recommendations for bear spray.  They have a comparison chart. Of course they want you select their product, but their numbers seem to be correct.

Other related links, in no special order...
http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/wildlife/igbc/Spray.htm
http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/b_spray.html
http://www.igbconline.org/
http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm
http://www.centerforwildlifeinformation.org/BeBearAware/BearSpray/bearspray.html
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:EqiMjWFVK80J:www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%2520spray.pdf+bear+spray&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us


...due to forum message length restriction, the balance of the article, and further comments are in the next post.

[ScottA]

A man hires an outfitter to take him bear hunting. The man asks what wepons he should bring. The outfitter tells him to bring a 300 winchester magnum, a 44 magnum revolver and a bowie knife. The man ponders a moment then asks, I can see the rifle and the revolver but what's the knife for? Well, the outfitter says, first you fire as many shots as you can with the rifle. Then as he charges you empty the revolver into him. Then you pull the knife out and cut your own throat before he eats you.

And on another hunt;

Outfitter: File the sights off your bear rifle.

Hunter: Why?

Outfitter: So it won't hurt so bad when the bear shoves it up your a$$.

[peternap]

Good article Don, and fairly factual.
I've had a lot of experience with bears. I grew up in bear country and the farm is thriving with them...including cubs.


IMHO your (and my) 45/70 is the best bear medicine on earth....but only if you know the gun inside and out. There is very little difference between shooting an attacking bear and an attacking human. It has to be automatic. That means burning up a lot of ammo. It's fun for me but many people don;t like to shoot and don't want to spend the money involved. I handload and it is still an expensive habit.

I also carry bear spray...In the woods and out. Shooting beats is depressing and shooting people is heavy on the paperwork

Black bears are more serious than Grizzles. Grizzly bears will bluff most of the time, 80 percent of black bear charges are real. 

Pepper will turn a bear that is not on a rampage but if he wants you, a bullet is the only sure answer.

I vote for carry both and stay on your toes.

[MountainDon]

We need an over/under; 45/70 and bear spray. 

[peternap]

We need an over/under; 45/70 and bear spray. 

Boy, wouldn't that be nice! I have an over/under .308-12ga.....but it ain't a 45/70. Most people don't understand how strong those little guide guns are. I've loaded some that were just shy of .458 Mag ballistics. Kicks like a Christmas Mule, but sure does what it's supposed to do.

[MountainDon]

For those with deep pockets these look like really fine 45/70 ammo. (John C let me know about them)


Dang, I hijacked my own thread. 

[John_C]

I hijacked my own thread.

That's funny

So where are you headed with this??  Spray them with 45-70's???  We're probably headed towards some black bears issues here as well.  The bear population has increased and some of the neighbors think they are cute, especially the momma bears with those cudly cubs.  Darwin award candidates in the making.

Kicks like a Christmas Mule

What's the saying?"Kills at one end, maims at the other">

[MountainDon]

Hang a pepper canister in place of the light?

[glenn kangiser]

Laser on that light, Don? hmm  I would have an uneasy feeling if a red dot hit me in the forehead.

[glenn kangiser]

Found this on the Alaska Gold Forum.

Quote: akbushcop at 11:25:37 Thu Mar 27 2008


    I've used the pepper spray before. It's nice unless the wind is blowing in the wrong direction or it's raining. Also it shouldn't be carried in your front vest pocket with the safety off. I would have thought after getting sprayed in the face 3 times I would have learned my lesson. I can testify the stuff works on humans very well....



lol thats funny I dont care who you are...


I had some pepper spray on the shelf for a few years and it somehow leaked and it took me a few weeks to figure out what the heck was making my eyes irritated until I picked up the spray one time and it felt empty so I shook it and it leaked a little more on me..


I kept it on the shelf due to in colorado alot of Fed Parks and I coudlnt hike in them legally with a weapon but I will never buy it agian unless forced into that situation.

[glenn kangiser]

More from AGF

Ya right. Some researchers are idiots too.

"Researchers found 11 incidents where bear spray applied to objects like tents, with the intent to repel bears, backfired and attracted them."

How stupid! Pepper spray is a condiment to bears just as salt and pepper is to a human.

In the Alaska bush I always carry a pistol grip Mossberg 12 gauge that I call my "bear tamer". It is realitively light weight yet when loaded with slugs will slow down most any bear. I do give them a chance with a "cracker" round designed to scare them away. Then, if it ain't running away the bear may likely die. I would hate to kill a bear, or any animal, but if in doubt the animal dies before my safety is in question.

I'm not a hunter. I don't beleve in killing animals (unless it barks all night). But when an animal threatens you why would you not stop it from hurting you with something more than a condiment.

I really want to say something here about all the environmentalest, global warming idots form California... but I wont.



---
Walt

and

Walt-

Not all people from California are sandal wearing, quiche eaten, white wine swilling, tree hugging left wing commie pinko enviro-nuts.

there are lots of them but then there are those of us that are politically just to right of Attila The Hun and think that we should have many fewer Nat Parks and a lot less regulation.

Ken

http://bb.bbboy.net/alaskagoldforum-viewthread?forum=2&thread=688

[glenn kangiser]

and me of course...

You got it, Ken. My neighbor and I have both killed bears breaking into our places. 3rd night I was sleeping outside with a 30.06 waiting for it. That was the last night it bothered us.

Two Fish and game offices told me if they were a threat to our safety, don't wait for the permit -- just shoot them. Local warden was a sandal wearing, quiche eaten, white wine swilling, tree hugging left wing commie pinko enviro-nut.

He turned out to be OK after he got here with my permit. I called the USDA trapper and told him to call the warden and bring up my permit -- he was supposed to get it there the night before.

Earlier he told my wife they didn't want wounded bears running around for them to chase down, so I only used one bullet from about 20 feet and shot it straight up it's nose. I wasn't going to give him the satisfaction of thinking I couldn't shoot straight and shoot more than once.




---
Mariposa - South end of the California Mother Lode

Glenn

[glenn kangiser]

Pepper spray not enough for bear attacks

    Forum: Appalachian Trail
    Re: Question Smokey the Bears (John & Cathy)
    Date: 2000, Nov 07
    From: Chris Deile

The bear attack in the Smokies (spring '00) which the woman was mauled and killed was, as reported, a rare occurrance. However, the Tennessean newspaper refused to publish my editorial sharing of our bear attack in Alaska in '96. ('A Can of Spray, A Lot of Luck'; Anchorage Daily News; 9/29/96) Missionary friend Keith benner and I attacked by brown bear--sprayed it in charge--but I was knocked down with side-arm swipe to the chest. Sprayed rest in its mouth--bear ran away--I jumped up--bear made u-turn, charged again. Resigned myself to being mauled but bear went around me, knocking Keith against tree before leaving. Pepper spray allowed a face to face encounter--risking mauling and death--whereas a firearm could have stopped it in its charge. almost all National Parks prohibit firearms (for us--but Rangers use them for bear protection, esp. in Glacier N.P.--where most bear attcks in "Lower '48" occur--meanwhile advising us to use pepper spray) [Wrangell-St.Elias National Park--Alaska--is the only N.P. to allow friearms for bear protection]. The woman killed in Smoky N.P. could still be alive were she allowed a firearm for defense. Finally, in follow up ADN article (10/06/96) biologists had determined pepper spray is ineffective on black bears due to a unique protective mucous coating. Information one will not find in propagandic outdoors magazines, etc. The Fort Collins Coloradoan did print my editorial this year--sorry do not have date available. Many rejections otherwise--few will print. GORP.com has banned my entries, and they manipulated my former posts--removing my strong arguments, leaving my weaker ones containing error. Best wishes to all---

http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/get/trails/Appalachian/350/1.html
Pepper spray not enough for bear attacks

PEPPER SPRAY
INEFFECTIVE
AGAINST BEARS

   1. Although the (spring '00) bear mauling of the woman in the Smokies was a rarity, bear protection seems best with a firearm.

      Missionary friend Keith Benner and I were attacked by brown bear (grizzly) along Kenai River in Alaska ('A Can of Spray, A Lot of Luck; Anchorage Daily News; 9/29/96).
      Sprayed bear in charge--
      I was knocked down with side-arm swipe to chest--
      sprayed rest in bears mouth--bear ran away--
      I jumped up---Bear made U-turn, charged again.

      Resigned myself to being mauled--turned back to it so as not to see--
      but bear went around me knocking Keith against tree before leaving. Pepper spray allowed face to face encounter--risking mauling and death--whereas a firearm (.338 rifle) could have stopped the bear in its charge.
      Furthermore, ADN followup article cited biologists finding pepper spray ineffective on black bears due to a unique protective mucous coating (10/06/96).

      http://www.trailquest.net/bears.html http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/092399/out_bears.html http://www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/get/trails/Appalachian/368.html
      .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.

   2. BEAR BLASTED WITH PEPPER SPRAY, HAD TO BE KILLED

      The bear finally turned and ran after counselors blasted her with pepper spray and fired a flare at her feet, Prysunka said. Later Saturday, following the morning attack, officials found the sow in the campsite area on Deer Island in southeast Alaska and
      killed her.

      April 26, 2004

      http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20040426-2025-bearmauling.html11

http://www.geocities.com/alaskanativebaskets/pepper.notenuf.bear.html
Alaskan Native Baskets

Sorry guys -- I say a big gun is the only deterrent.  Save the Pepper Juice for your enchiladas.  At the risk of your own life, don't listen to them California sandal wearing, quiche eaten, white wine swilling, tree hugging left wing commie pinko enviro-nuts.
   

The one mainly trying to save the bears was a recovering drug addict when he was eaten by the bears per an above linked article.  An idiot.

[Daddymem]

Gun.  That way you have something to eat afterwards.  Mmmmm bear sausage is awesome!

[peternap]

Gun.  That way you have something to eat afterwards.  Mmmmm bear sausage is awesome!

Depends on what they've been eating Daddymem. I learned my lesson early about eating garbage dump bears.

[MountainDon]

Around here G&F won't let you keep the dead marauding bear.

[glenn kangiser]

Shhhh --

I just bury them anyway.  Someone told me they wouldn't skin them because they looked just like a man hanging there.

...and when the ticks start writhing and crawling off the dead bear I just don't feel much like eating it.

Warden spied my backhoe and asked me to bury the last one without taking any body parts for the natives etc.  I buried it.

He said it would save him some work.

[glenn kangiser]

I found a reason to use bear spray.

Spike and I went prospecting a couple miles from the house.  Found a mine -- decided to go look... but wait -- what's that nasty looking pile over there -- black -- berry seeds ugh--bear crap.

I grabbed the pruners to cut the vines and roots away from the opening to the drift.



It was about a 30 degree angle down to the floor of the tunnel.  I checked for loose hanging rocks then slid down in and stood up.

Things looked good -- decent porphyry clay walls.  I started into the drift.  Spike was whining a bit and didn't want to come in, but slowly he eased a bit into the tunnel.  I went back about 50 feet to an intersection...a bit of water.  Hmm - whats that funny looking black stuff?  Another bear dump -- that's what .  We decided now was a good time to leave. 

May even consider some of that pepper spray.  Not a great place to shoot even if I remembered my gun, and a .380 pistol would only make it mad anyway.  Guess I should file the sights off of that gun too.

[MountainDon]

 

[Redoverfarm]

In this area there is a wild edible root called a "ramp" which is a cross between a onion and a garlic.  This time of the year they are dug and consumed.  This past week a guy was digging ramps near a old tree top.  When he looked around to his dismay there was a 250# black bear standing on his back two legs with his ears turned back.  "Easy as you go" he back up against a nearby tree and pulled out his pistol and started talking to the bear.  He said that he was really too close to try moving away. Funny he said as he talked to the bear the bears ears would go point forward and then return to the back position when he stopped. After several minutes of converation the bear dropped down and wandered off.  Someone asked him what he talked about and he said I was telling he bear that these were my ramps and I have worked too hard to give them to you.

[gandalfthegrey]

May even consider some of that pepper spray.  Not a great place to shoot even if I remembered my gun, and a .380 pistol would only make it mad anyway.  Guess I should file the sights off of that gun too.

Probably not a good spot to open up a pepper spray either. Unless you are wearing a mask.

[NM_Shooter]

Oh boy.  Not trying to start any flame wars.  Just one knuckleheaded opinion below.Apologies in advance as I predict this will be a long winded one...

Is the bear attacking (charging) or posturing (threatening)?  Best way to put a bear down if you are hunting it is to fire a heavy caliber that penetrates through both shoulders.  You won't get that target picture if it is charging.

Consider this.  To stop a bear that is intent on hurting you (not bluffing), you will absolutely have to hit it in the central nervous system.  BTW... this is also true for being attacked by a man with a knife.  I forget the distance my FBI neighbor (former green beret, former secret service, short little cold-eyed guy) told me, but I seem to recall that it is something like 21 feet of comfort to stop a knife attack with a gun.  It can be done in shorter range, but the odds change that you are going to be hurt.

Anyway, I like to holster up and play cowboy as much as anybody else.  I'm also a competitive shooter and have done well at the collegiate and national level.  No way in hell am I going to count on my skills with a handgun to "stop" a bear.  If he is standing still and fussing at me, I could shoot him through his 'noggin. I do have to admit, that from a long distance you might have a chance of stopping that bear with a rifle before it gets to you.  Within 20 yards, I bet on the bear.

Just for grins, try this for target practice.

Get an old tire.  Tape a chunk of cardboard on both sides.  Run a short dowel through the cardboard, and on one side of the dowel, attach another piece of cardboard, maybe 4" in diameter.  Find a rocky hill, and figure out a way to stand down at the bottom of that hill while the tire is rolling at you.  Don't start to shoot until the tire is going at least 20mph.  I would bet (with generous odds) that most of us could not consistently hit that target with any projectile that comes out of a rifled barrel..pistol or long-gun.  Try it!  Heck, just for fun, run that tire sideways and try to hit the cardboard in the middle from 20 yards away.

I think the only practical defense from a gun standpoint is a 12ga, with single or double ought loads.  Wide choked as possible, although that isn't really going to make much difference at 10 feet.  But at least you get multiple projectiles. 

Now how practical is it to carry a 12ga everywhere you go in the woods?  I can't even manage to keep track of my wading staff while working my fly rod. 

I'm going to count on counter assault spray in my left hand and and my Kimber .45 in my right.  We all have to make our own choices on this, but I can't count on my shooting skills to stop a bear.  I trust the odds of the bear spray for my conditions.  BTW..This is not your mom's mace cannister. 

I hope this link works... do note that in small quantities, bears are attracted to the smell.  If you have to spray, go change your clothes asap.  Especially your britches 

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:oAFMUif2qpoJ:www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/pepperspray/pepperspray.htm+counter+assault+bear+spray+video&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Stay safe!

-f-

[glenn kangiser]

May even consider some of that pepper spray.  Not a great place to shoot even if I remembered my gun, and a .380 pistol would only make it mad anyway.  Guess I should file the sights off of that gun too.

Probably not a good spot to open up a pepper spray either. Unless you are wearing a mask.

Good point there too.  I guess that's the part about spraying yourself with condiments for the bear who enjoys a good fresh pepper steak.

Anybody heard or knows what happens if you walk up on a hibernating bear.  (Besides having the sights filed off your gun)?

[glenn kangiser]

I don't really have any illusions about my little .380 auto having any effect on a bear, Frank, but thanks for the warning anyway.  It's more for protection from the dope growers where I may get to at least use it to make shooting noises back at them.

For the bear at this point -- I'm headed the other way.

At home with access to my rifle and a better edge I will shoot if there is a persistent problem only.  If they are just passing through I leave them alone.