I need some input and advise please!!

Dilly · May 05, 2008, 08:22:48 PM

Hello to Everyone.
I am at that stage and ready to move on and take the plunge and build that little cottage or cabin for semi-retirement. I have searched everything one the net for a few years and visited this site and found the information extremely useful.
I would like help in deciding which way to go and would appreciate all input.
First I should give you an idea where I am going to build and the lay of the property. My location is a cute little back lot cottage at a beach call Wasaga Beach on Georgian Bay which is part of Lake Huron on the Great Lakes.
On the lot is an old family cottage of 24 x26 as its foot print. It has never been finished from an interior standpoint and is on piers.
I had thought for years about raising it and putting a foundation under it and expand it to around 24x 36.
The structure itself was built in 1947 by a young energetic veteran of WWII and sold to my uncle in 1951 the year I was born and through the generations finally about 10 years ago I purchased it from the family.
The lot is 50' by 125'. It is level and completely sand. The water table is about 6 ft. from ground level so I will only put a basement down about 51/2 ft.
The lot is covered in Oak and Pine trees. There is no view so when I say a back lot it is exactly that. Wasaga is one of the fastest growing areas in Canada and is really a booming Baby Boomer retirement area. The demand comes from the Toronto area which is 70 miles south of here.
I have town water,sewers and natural gas. I have all the hookups already existing.
The area is a mixture of new larger 1500-2000sq. ft. mostly raised bungalows and chalet styles like Viceroys.and older cottages. I have a neighbour who has a beautiful chalet with a huge Prow front that looks out at the street and neighbours. So many people up here just put the wrong type of home on their lots.
I really have enjoyed the trips I have made to New England and Maine enjoying some of the oceanfront cottages there. I want to stay in the proper theme for the area and really want to do this correctly.

I am really torn by two plans and the aesthetics of each the Universal 20' 2 story and the 11/2 story.

The excellent interior of the 2 story universal with a front and wraparound veranda would make this quite appealing. The 11/2 story turned sideways on the lot with 2 dormers on the second floor would give this plan an appealing look with a full front veranda also.
I have a number of good friends that I play old timers hockey with that are tradesmen and are will to give me family rates on to help construct and my son is a stone mason and he and his crew will do the foundation and fireplace and chimneys labour free. We need basements in the cold north.
Being 6'3" tall it does concern me in the 11/2 story losing height and without putting a full dormer on the back I might find it a little small upstairs.
I love the shingle treatment of the pictured universal and also the idea of a board and batten effect is also intriguing on either plans.

Which of the two plans would make more sense? By the way I am single so to hold most of my furniture would be fairly easily done in either model.
From your experiences would the cost be dramatically different and considering my utilities already on site how should I calculate my construction costs? I used the formula that I found on one of your threads and it sort of scared me thinking that it might come in around 130,000. I have budgeted about 100,000 and would love to stay within that figure if possible.

I would love some feedback from you veterans of this type of project and will be buying my plans later this week and lots will be determined by the input that you folks give me.
Thank you so much for listening to my ramblings and I eagerly looking forward to your responses and guidance.

Dilly

Okie_Bob · May 07, 2008, 09:28:48 AM

Hi Dilly and welcome to to the forum!!!! Glad to have you aboard.
Not sure I have much to say relative to your questions as you are in a totally different world that I am, here in E. Tx.
I would have a problem, I think, putting a basement under a house with a water table at 6'. Down here no one has a basement
and we get along just fine without them. I know they are almost a necessity in your part of the world.
Really can't comment on the amount you have budgeted especially since you stated you have a lot of trade friends that are going
to work cheap for you. That could make a huge difference, if totally true. A 26'x36' house should not cost $130k, in my opinion. Especially since you already have the lot, utilities are present and you have an essentially dried in house to begin with. IF my math is correct, you are looking at 936sf of total floor space and even at $100/sf you'd be in at $100k. I realize everything is probably higher than down here but, not that much!! And if you are going to to a lot of the labor yourself, it should cost considerably less. (Assuming no basement.)
Just a few quick observations and I'm sure others will add a lot more once they get a chance.
Good luck and keep in touch. You've found the best web site of friendly, helpful DIY'ers anywhere!
Okie Bob

May 07, 2008, 10:20:07 AM

Some with Johns plans have in the last couple years at least dried in their house shell for around $12000 for the 20x30. Granted the insides and finish cost more, but seems like it should be much cheaper than you are figuring if you do the labor.

Okie_Bob · May 07, 2008, 01:29:08 PM

I bow to Master Glenn's superior knowledge, old wise one!
Okie Bob

Dilly · May 07, 2008, 04:00:52 PM

Thanks Guys,
I have been playing around with different scenarios. If I take a look at the 1 1/2 story turn it sideways with a full veranda running across the house similar to the one done in Alaska. I would not do a wraparound veranda as my 50' lot would not give give any extra skinny room at the sides. I think 36 by 20 would be the the footprint along with 2 dormers out the front and possibly a dormer on the back to allow for a bathroom on the second floor.
What sort of costs do dormers do to increasing manufacturing costs. A friend of mine said I am looking at about 700- to a 1000 per dormer to the final cost.
I am really green at this. By the way up here you need basements for furnaces etc. I have a friend of mine that built a beaytiful Viceroy a few years back and did it on a slab as he felt like a basement was too much hassle and when he decided to sell it he had a heck of a time finding a buyer as everyone in this part of the world has basements. I will be certain to be above the water table that is for sure.
I am leaning towards the 1 1/2 story plan but with a full second floor and not a loft. It would be real cute but I will need the space.
Some of these people on this site are totally amazing and do unbelieveable work.
I'll be back with a million questions.
Thanks for replying

May 07, 2008, 04:10:10 PM

I'm lucky if my memory kicks in once in a while, BoB.

I'm thinking a lot of our people are getting away with $50 to $75 psf if they do it themselves and keep it simple -- you can always go up from there.

On the dormers - your pricing could be correct if you hire someone to do it, but I don't see that much difference if you DIY. especially shed dormers -- adding a couple doubler rafters and short walls - not a lot of difference in materials.

Rover · May 07, 2008, 06:24:49 PM

Hi Dilly,
I have some land southwest of you! I can't quite afford to build a cottage, so I'm building a 108 square foot tool shed. It will be a cabin also but I have to call it a tool shed because that is all I'm allowed to build. Bylaws only allow a full house. And garages can't be built before the house.
Best of luck

Okie_Bob · May 08, 2008, 08:07:41 AM

Again, I agree with Glenn on the dormer. Main difference would be the windows in the dormers as far as additional cost is concerned. Some additional lumber, etc but the window would be the main extra cost. And again, that is if you do it yourself. Suspect a framer would look at it as a lot more expense, maybe that $700 someone told you about.
Also, I think Glenn has it right on the $50+ per sq ft if you DIY it. Labor costs are going to vary a lot based on location.
I've never had a house with a basement so they scare me as a sourse of moisture and extra cost. You sure don't have to have a basement for utilities. Might be nice but, not necessary. See my pics to see my utility room which has water heater, water filter, heat
and air and laundry room, all above ground on a pier and beam foundation. http://www.bobdanaslakehouse.blogspot.com/ and first pic is in utility room. Course if local area has basements then I suppose you need to have one for resale as well.
Okie Bob

MountainDon · May 08, 2008, 09:54:37 AM

Just in case thse in areas where basements are traditional don't know, houses without basements are the norm in the SW. I can see the resale "problem" though if it is traditional to have one and you don't. Some folks just don't adapt.

May 08, 2008, 11:29:01 AM

The place is looking great, BoB.

I have a question -- If there is not a part of the house that is underground, where would you live? hmm

akemt · May 08, 2008, 01:32:36 PM

Anyone else concerned about it being built on all-sand? That might be why it was built on piers...would have to have a massive horizontal foundation to support the weight if you didn't take the piers down to rock, wouldn't you?

I'm familiar with the water table situation...I only know of one basement in our 15,000 pop city (not that there can't be more, there probably are) and it is constantly flooded and nasty. No one even builds on slabs here for that reason...too much moisture too close to the house.

Thread hijack: Glenn -- That 20 x 30 dry-in/framing price you listed above, is that for a 1, 1 1/2 or 2 story house, in general?

ScottA · May 08, 2008, 02:32:00 PM

For my cabin in Oklahoma I'm looking at $15-16 sq. ft. dried in and I'm estimating $35-40 sq. ft. complete plus utilities and land. That's with careful shopping and me doing all the labor. Unless cash is super tight I wouldn't skimp on the details for a small place. Things like dormers and a full covered porch can go a long way to make a small place more inviting and livable.

glenn kangiser · May 08, 2008, 10:38:30 PM

As I remember, it was a 20 x 30 - 2 story done by Vojaceks.

It was their home, and he was a professional builder and shopped well for the best prices getting quotes from several suppliers he dealt with.

glenn kangiser · May 08, 2008, 10:41:21 PM

Thanks, Scott. Members are always looking for info like that.

May 09, 2008, 01:41:09 PM

Thanks Scott I agree in a small space attention to detail is key. I like the 1 1/2 story for it's curb appeal. While surfing around out there after deciding that the 1 1/2 20X 30 really I think 36 is the number I will go, I found a lot of cute little cabins on that similar platform. I found one called the McKenzie by a company called Wilderness Cabins which they have added a full front porch and I can see the similarities and really see how I could adapt my plan to it.
I really would like to know how the sister company works and can I with the original plans do the redesign and add the pages along with my plans to my building department to get an approval. In Canada it is the land of paperwork and they have their hand out at every level of government to have some type of tariff etc. I am not really computer smart and although my girlfriend is and I suppose will help me do any of you guys know how it works to do plan adjustments .

Also I am looking at doing Board and Batten as one exterior alternative. What type of wood is the best for staining to have that western cedar effect? Also the photo work of the chap in Michigan who used Hardie Board and stained it to have that effect is quite stunning . Does ot look as real when you are standing next to it? Would you guys suggest any other siding? I know there is some pretty awesome vinyl out there now.
Once again I appreciate your input all of you as I am getting into the crunch and my house is going on the market in the next month and at that point I am in start mode. I kick so many tires before I do something it is painstaking but, I am there. I will probably order my plans by monday and join the sister site for a few months and then grab a pot of coffee and play with it until the wee hours of the morning for the foreseeable future....
Thanks Dilly

glenn kangiser · May 09, 2008, 09:14:27 PM

When you have ordered your plans you can take your questions to the plans support section and get it straight from the horses mouth... I mean, straight from John. He monitors the Plans Support section more than here.

...of course we will help with what we can also.

TheWire · May 11, 2008, 06:48:27 PM

Just checked my budget. For my 1216 sq ft. 20x32 1.5 story, I'm on track for dry in at about $7.25/sq foot. This includes everything pressure treated from the 1st floor deck on down, 2nd floor supported by I-joists and LVL, 12 Low-E windows (6 of them 4'x4' or bigger) and a hidden fastener metal roof. I'm at the 2nd floor deck right now so the 7.25 is actual cost to that point and estimates for everything to get dried in.

All materials are new, but I do watch the sales a lot and take advantage of Home Depot's match price plus a 10% discount. HD seems to be higher than Menard's a lot, so when Menard's has a sale, I often can go to HD and get 10% off Menard's sale price.

Jerry

glenn kangiser · May 11, 2008, 06:56:48 PM

Good shopping, Jerry. That is right there with the most thrifty of them.

Thanks for giving us the figures.

When I first started estimating steel installation with nothing to go by it was rough, and the few who helped me out were really appreciated.

Dilly · May 11, 2008, 09:58:31 PM

Thanks Glen and Jerry. I also went to Okie Bob's blog and that is very impressive with what he has done. This may be an odd question I realize that the structure is easy to add on in length but when it comes to width say 22 or 24 feet it changes the engineering of the existing plan but does that dramatically change the manufacturing cost?
On my lot I have an existing cottage that has to be demolished. The footprint is 22by 26 feet . I had thought of saving the floor and using that part of the footprint as part of my for a sub-floor. My old carpenter bud says in his mind it is better to take a chainsaw and cut it up and start fresh. The old cottage is just that built in the '40's and is full 2x4 construction with a bit of a belly in the roof line but in my mind the 6" tongue and groove pine floor could be salvaged and used for the sub-floor. The floor joices are 2x6 and would not pass code so I would have to do new joices. Any thoughts?

Dilly · May 11, 2008, 10:00:19 PM

"Joists" I must be tired..Long weekend preparing my house to go on the market.

May 11, 2008, 10:26:17 PM

If you don't want to cut it up you could disassemble it and try to salvage it if it will come apart.

The problem with going wider is that you need new engineering for the footing sizes - weight to the ground etc. Going longer is just adding more of the same spaces - footings - load between them etc.

Bigger space between footings equal bigger loads on the footings - maybe more needed - maybe larger.

Dilly · May 12, 2008, 08:26:48 AM

Thanks. That's what I thought. I was just looking for more bedroom space on the main floor. I am considering and very seriously of going to 36x20 as my lot is 50' 38 would be my max allowing for 6' clearence on each side of the lot line. I have a kingsize bed and need a bit of room to manoever in the bedroom. Also I have a dining room suite complete with a hutch and buffet and two leather couches. Have you seen anyone who has gone with a 36' footprint. I have been through most threads and haven't found one. It was also give me more room to do basement stairs and a less steep staircase to the loft.
I have seen some amazing work done and made notes of so many treatments that other members have done.
By the way the reason I want to do a mainfloor bedroom is to hedge a bet against the future. I am 57 and just coming off a broken ankle. Steps for the first time in my life have started to concern me. If I could find a single story plan that would catch my fancy I would almost do it. The Grandfather's cottage doesn't have the sort of curb appeal I am looking for. I really like the 1 1/2 story adaptation and the look is what I want.
By the way I just had my 6th grandchild born last night. Good old Irish stock replenishing. My fifth grandson and only one granddaughter. LOL
Maybe I should consider going to 38 feet in length but I guess I should say width as I am turning it sideways.

Thanks
Dilly

glenn kangiser · May 12, 2008, 09:41:48 AM

Congrats on the grandchild, Dilly. I have one more coming soon also- even have the 57 coming soon.

I would say nearest to what you want would be Jimmy Cason's 20x40 2 Story. Just do it in a 1 and 1/2 and shorten it 4 feet or 2 feet as you wish. http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=1071.0

If inspected check code setbacks with your building department as some places require 10 feet. Some go less but require firewalls such as stucco or sheetrock under Hardie Board.

Dilly · May 12, 2008, 01:43:13 PM

Hi Glenn,
The baby was 10lb.12 ou. Aiden what a cute old Irish name. Works for our heritage.

I appreciate the input and from what I have read the wraparound staircase John has designed for the 20' Universal 2 story is the best design and if I were to change my mind to go to that plan the 34' model is large enough. The one picture that really intrigued me was the one on the home page with the gray cedar shake siding.

Would I be out in left field by thinking that a 2 story universal would have a similar building cost to a 1 1/2 story with about a 12 foot shed dormer on the back and two window dormers out the front supposing I were to do it sideways on the lot with a full veranda across the front level. Also as I have stated the second story loft would be a full loft or floor to put all my furniture in..

I know the extra work and engineering on site would take more effort.
The two story 20 by 34 universal plan has just the right amount of living square footage. If I were to turn it sideways and change the windows and entrance on both levels it could work. The straight forward construction on the 2 story plan would be more efficient and John has already put in a set of drawings to accommodate a full basement. I wouldn't have to worry about the second floor not being large enough for my 6'3" big frame.LOL I have always liked the 2 story layout but have really liked the 1 1/2 story turned sideways with porch and dormers as being kind of a cross between cabin and cape cod sort of hybrid.

Decisions,decisions. I do know the most efficient building method is the full 2 story as you have a smaller roof area and footprint to deal with and has the most usable square footage in the interior.

By doing a sideways version of the 2 story with a full porch along the front of the house it should have just as pleasing a look .

Do you know anything about the Nichiha shake cement board product line such as in cost? Is it a lot more or anymore than Hardie board ?

So now you see my conundrum. Were you saying when I looked at Jimmy Carson's that I could do it in a 1/ 1/2 version? As it stands he has more footage than I need. The stock plan might just be the way I should go
and make certain the trims and attention to detail is bang on and it has major curb appeal.

In your opinion and I might be spinning in the wind but am I out to lunch thinking that the 2 story may come out close in production costs to the 1/12 story even though it is larger as it is more straight forward for building purposes?

Thanks
Dilly

John_M · May 12, 2008, 01:57:00 PM

Hey there Dilly,

I have constructed an 18 x 32 cabin out at my property. It might give you an idea lengthwise what 32' is like at least. It is patterned after the 20 x 30 1 1/2 story.

It is turned sideways and I have designed two six foot dormers as well. There are no dormers on the backside. Take a look at my blog. If you snoop around you can find some pictures of my foundation as well. It has not been updated in awhile but we should get back up there soon to start the siding.

Good luck with your plans!!

www.ourlittlecabin.blogspot.com