The American Nightmare

[dug]

And if there were an honest, thorough, unbiased investigation and the government somehow came out squeaky clean I would be the first to stand up to accept all of your "told you so" insults, name calling, pelting by rotten tomatoes, whatever. It's not like I want to be right on this issue.

[glenn kangiser]

At the possible cost of lengthening this thread I do have one question. Soon to follow. As near as i can see....no one on either side of this issue changed their mind. That seems to be the case these days on a lot of issues. Our country is extremely polarized it seems to me. Now here is my question:

Lets just say that you convinced everyone on this forum that our government is responsible for setting up 3000 people to die in 9/11 to stir the American public into supporting the invasion of the middle east so that a few rich guys/companies could go steal those poor peace loving Muslims oil. I think that's the general meat of your argument.

So.....now what?

Quite honestly....we could have a totally peaceful revolution in this country every 4 to 6 years....it's called VOTING. I wonder how many here actually vote. At any rate I DO VOTE....every chance I get. And I think it's safe to say that to my knowledge....unless it's some local county office.....that there is not one single person representing me in either the state or federal governments that I voted for.

So what is it you expect of me by "convincing" me of the evil of the USA?

Sorry I didn't get to comment on this earlier, PP.  Traveling this week.

Not just stealing oil and resources.  That may be an obvious motivation.  Consider how much corporations make off of the wars.  We bomb a country to smithereens, then issue contracts to large corporations to guard it, (Blackwater - Dyncorp - others )   We destroy massive amounts of weaponry making millions of dollars for companies our politicians and corporations are are invested in (Bush/BinLaden partners in Carlysle Group). 

The work for the most part never gets done and much is done in a shoddy manner blamed on security and other problems.  The taxpayers money still disappears blamed on one thing or another but nobody is ever held accountable.  The wars are simply a vehicle to transfer all money that can be begged, borrowed or stolen from the taxpayers into the pockets of the corporations, their investors and political stockholders as well.

We profit from both sides of the war as our soldiers die for corporate greed.  Paying off the Taliban is a common act.  We support the so called enemy who then takes the money and uses it against our soldiers.  Weapons are routinely "lost" to arm the other side for one reason or another - this is not accidental.

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/010778.php  I found this reference quickly but am actually referring to current events.  Major instances of this sort of thing.

We should vote - right.  Note that none of those offered are acceptable as those offered do not have the interest of the people in mind - just the interest they are directed to have - they are puppets and cannot solve anything for America.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/24/us/computer-voting-is-open-to-easy-fraud-experts-say.html

Search the subject for more of the same.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-obama-birth-certificate1dec08,0,7258812.story

Court won't review Obama's eligibility to serve

In the interest of space and time I have only supplied a couple of examples.  More research will reveal more of the same.

The entire system as well as it's checks and balances is broken.  I'm not offering solutions - just offering the facts and the reasons we want to watch out for ourselves, friends and families.

I love our country.  Dislike the criminals stealing it and if we won't hold them accountable then there is not a solution.  Apathy of the masses prevents fixing the problem.  Divide and conquer is done so well by our leadership.  I think that only when they create and are successful in their own fall as in Rome, can there be a new beginning.

[IronRanger]

I believe if one votes, after giving it some real thought, not being a sheeple in other words, it may just keep "them" off guard and concerned enough to watch what they do.

http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/8/81178.html?1284653933

Emphasis mine.  Yes, they were caught.  It doesn't mean other instances (and you can search for more) didn't "slip by" or went unmentioned because it would be "too much for the public to handle, so we didn't report the crime- we're just promoting the greater good" type of thinking that happens behind closed doors.   Some things aren't meant to be private.

"FOUR KINDS OF INFORMATION ARE NEEDED TO AUTHENTICATE AN ELECTION:
1. Who can vote (the voter list)
2. Who did vote (the list of participating voters)
3. Were votes cast the real ones (chain of custody)
4. Was the counting accurate (public verification of the count)

Shelby County admitted that they installed an invalid voter list in Election Day electronic poll books, altering #1 (WHO CAN VOTE). The list said thousands of people could not vote because they had already voted, even though they had not voted.

Shelby County withheld the list of WHO DID VOTE (#2 ) until ordered by the court to produce it. When consultants analyzed the list of who did vote, they found names missing for 3,221 votes counted in the final certified results.

Shelby County computer logs show uploaded invisible data from 16 polling places the day before the polls opened. The premature uploads were done out of public view, and no testing procedure or work order record matches documents the uploads of invisible votes into the central tally machine, raising questions on WHETHER VOTES COUNTED WERE THE REAL ONES(#3).

#4, COUNTING OF THE VOTE: Shelby County declined to provide precinct results after the election and even after they certified the results; Elections Administrator Richard Holden stated in front of a court reporter on Aug. 16 that it was not possible to produce them, a misrepresentation to the court, but the inspection team discovered copies of precinct results reports sitting on Shelby County computers. The results had been there since Aug. 6. Shelby County precinct results ("Statement of Votes Cast" or "SOVC") do not match the list of participating voters."

[Windpower]

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=12589&title=evidence-the-us-government-allowed-9-11-to-happen

[ScottA]

And if there were an honest, thorough, unbiased investigation and the government somehow came out squeaky clean I would be the first to stand up to accept all of your "told you so" insults, name calling, pelting by rotten tomatoes, whatever. It's not like I want to be right on this issue.

The fact that this will never happen eliminates any need you might have to clean rotten tomatoes off your shoes. There will never be an honest investigation because all the evidence has been destroyed and all the reports have been altered. Remember those cell phone calls that where suposedly made from some of the planes on 9/11? If you look into it you will find that it never happened. This according to our own government who was pushing these stories at the time all this took place. The records have been scrubbed clean. All false information has been removed from official records and replaced with nothing. There was no evidence of explosives in the trade center debris because they never tested for explosives. When asked what Iraq had to do with 9/11, G.W. said "Nothing". It's kinda hard to investigate nothing.

[Shawn B]

There was no evidence of explosives in the trade center debris because they never tested for explosives.

They sold most of it to China, and a few other countries for scrap, and did so fairly quickly.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Destruction_of_Evidence_from_Ground_Zero_at_the_World_Trade_Center

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Jan/25776.htm

[glenn kangiser]

 I think it is important to re-hash this every so often even if it seems futile so that younger ones who were not there at the time or were young are at least made aware of what went on, is going on and may continue to go on in the future.

Maybe guys like Pat Tillman wouldn't have had to be wasted if they did not mistakenly offer service for a just cause.  Our boys would not have had to snuff him.  Don't believe me?, ask his dad.

[dug]

I think it is important to re-hash this every so often even if it seems futile so that younger ones who were not there at the time or were young are at least made aware of what went on, is going on and may continue to go on in the future.

Maybe guys like Pat Tillman wouldn't have had to be wasted if they did not mistakenly offer service for a just cause.  Our boys would not have had to snuff him.  Don't believe me?, ask his dad.
Posted on: September 19, 2010, 12:15:19 PM

The world needs more people like you Glenn, weather they like it or not.

I am at this time struggling with what and how much to tell my 11 and 13 yr old about the current state of affairs as I see it. It's a much different world than the one I grew up in.

[ScottA]

I tell my kids what I see as the truth. But it's hard to know what the truth really is nowadays so I tell them that too.

[glenn kangiser]

I agree with Scott.  We should not hide reality from them in favor of lies.

I think it is important to try to teach the kids to look at everything and help them to be able to discern the crap from the evidence - the lies from reality (for whatever it is).  When there are so many impossible things - the lady standing in the middle of the "molten " window waving and yelling for help, the ID's in 30 minutes, the missing plane bodies and hardware - black boxes, the miraculous flights by non-pilots- the miracle passport that somehow survived the impact and explosions and got to the right investigator to report to us.....

I was just at my sons this last weekend.  We discussed much of the above.  An added bonus was meeting with a museum curator who was previously a psychological trainer in maximizing mental potential.

He is aware fully of the above conspiracy and was very excited to be able to talk to someone else educated in the goings on.  He said it is very hard to reach someone who does not want to think that our government has anything but our best interests at heart as the very thought of it is out of their comfort zone.  It is like their thought processes build a circle of safety around them and they will not allow themselves to even consider the possibility that it may be true that our government assisted such a cruel attack on the American people.  

It can in fact lead to a mental breakdown and is a protection they set up against that.  His training company was rather intensive in breaking down those barriers - I would call it another form of brainwashing almost.  He obviously knows what he is talking about.

The thought is so vile, so repulsive to them that everyone who thinks that thought must be labeled a conspiracy theorist as the government representative  (GWB) told them to do.  They cannot even entertain the thought and immediately fall back into the safety of believing the official story no matter how ridiculous and how far it goes against physics.

Until something gets through to them and gets them to wonder and start to work around their fears, revulsion and personal taboos set up as a safeguard by their minds, there is no way they can look.  They must deny everything that goes against their belief system and taboos.

In the meantime we will continue to discuss it at each opportunity and possibly some small event, some personal inconsistency may break through to them and open the way to sight - like Helen Keller - one small event and then the whole conspiracy will be open to see.

They will eventually have analyze what it is that is holding them back from looking - fear, personal taboos, thoughts that because they are authority figures they are good, guilt for voting for them, feeling they are partly responsibel and possibly partly to blame.  The system is purposely set up that way - it cuts down on dissent.  It is not their fault but they are made to feel that it is to stop them from even thinking there might be criminal action involved - hence approval for no investigation.

For those who don't already know, when I said we had to have assisted or let it happen, Sassy said  "No way and I will prove that you are wrong."

That was where she began to research and all evidence she could find pointed to me being right.  A sad outcome but true.  Now we use our knowledge to help ourselves and others to understand what is going on.  Not radical, but preparation to take care of ourselves and friends cannot hurt.  

Being a bit more prepared for anything that might come along is always better that having something happen and being caught off guard.  I hate getting caught with my pants down....

[glenn kangiser]

I think it is important to re-hash this every so often even if it seems futile so that younger ones who were not there at the time or were young are at least made aware of what went on, is going on and may continue to go on in the future.

Maybe guys like Pat Tillman wouldn't have had to be wasted if they did not mistakenly offer service for a just cause.  Our boys would not have had to snuff him.  Don't believe me?, ask his dad.
Posted on: September 19, 2010, 12:15:19 PM

The world needs more people like you Glenn, weather they like it or not.

I am at this time struggling with what and how much to tell my 11 and 13 yr old about the current state of affairs as I see it. It's a much different world than the one I grew up in.

...and - thanks Dug... I don't think I'll be winning any popularity contests but I don't really care. 

[Shawn B]

And if your Muslim (or anybody else) and question the official fable they unleash the media whores on you.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/oreilly-attacks-imam-rauf-truther/

[IronRanger]

I've noticed that no one who believes the official reports has spoken-up about the past false flag operations conducted by our government. 

History repeats itself.

[Windpower]

Retired NASA Engineer confronts the Official Conspiracy with science

http://www.vcreporter.com/cms/story/detail/faith_in_science/8213/

[dug]

Good link Windpower. More honest to goodness facts.

I have a feeling I am only preaching to the choir at this point but I figure if even one person reconsiders the possibility that they have been lied to, then they might convince another to do the same. Might be worth it.

I don't think the debate should be who is right and who is wrong at this point, only that someone has a lot of explaining to do. The conspiracy myth busters attempt to explain how events with no historical precedence came to be. When they have to explain 4 or 5 such incidents (ones with no historical precedence) in a row eyebrows must be raised.

Here is a couple of statements from some insane radicals. There are thousands of similar ones.


Commander Ralph Kolstad, U.S. Navy (ret) – Retired fighter pilot.  Former Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (Topgun).  20-year Navy career.  Aircraft flown: McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, and Grumman F-14 Tomcat.  Retired commercial airline captain with 27 years experience.  Aircraft flown: Boeing 727, 757 and 767, McDonnell Douglas MD-80, and Fokker F-100.  23,000+ total hours flown.
Statement to this website 8/20/07: "I started questioning the Sept 11, 2001 "story" only days after the event.  It just didn't make any sense to me.  How could a steel and concrete building collapse after being hit by a Boeing 767?  Didn't the engineers design it to withstand a direct hit from a Boeing 707, approximately the same size and weight of the 767?  The evidence just didn't add up. ...

At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying.  I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757's and 767's and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.

I was also a Navy fighter pilot and Air Combat Instructor, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School and have experience flying low altitude, high speed aircraft.  I could not have done what these beginners did.  Something stinks to high heaven!

Where is the damage to the wall of the Pentagon from the wings?  Where are the big pieces that always break away in an accident?  Where is all the luggage?  Where are the miles and miles of wire, cable, and lines that are part and parcel of any large aircraft?  Where are the steel engine parts?  Where is the steel landing gear?  Where is the tail section that would have broken into large pieces?

I also personally knew American Airlines Captain "Chick" Burlingame, who was the captain of Flight 77 which allegedly hit the Pentagon, and I know he would not have given up his airplane to crazies!

And at the Shanksville Pennsylvania impact site, where is any of the wreckage?!!!  Of all the pictures I have seen, there is only a hole!  Where is any piece of a crashed airplane?  Why was the area cordoned off, and no inspection allowed by the normal accident personnel?  Where is any evidence at all?

When one starts using his own mind, and not what one was told, there is very little to believe in the official "story". ...

Every question leads to another question that has not been answered by anyone in authority. This is just the beginning as to why I don't believe the official "story" and why I want the truth to be told."




Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) – Retired U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot with over 300 combat missions flown. Decorations include the Distinguished Flying Cross and 32 awards of the Air Medal. Aircraft flown: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, Lockheed C-130H Hercules. 10,000+ total hours flown. 20-year Marine Corps career.
Article Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11 1/14/08:

"September 11, 2001 seems destined to be the  watershed event of our lives and the greatest test for our democracy in our lifetimes.  The evidence of government complicity in the lead-up to the events, the failure to respond during the event, and the  astounding lack of any meaningful investigation afterwards, as well as the ignoring of evidence turned up by others that renders the official explanation impossible, may signal the end of the American experiment.  It has been used to justify all manners of measures to legalize repression at home and as a pretext for behaving as an aggressive empire abroad.  Until we demand an independent, honest, and thorough investigation and accountability for those whose action and inaction led to those events and the cover-up, our republic and our Constitution remain in the gravest danger." http://www.opednews.com


Statement to this website 2/20/07:

"This isn't about party, it isn't about Bush Bashing. It's about our country, our constitution, and our future. ...

Your countrymen have been murdered and the more you delve into it the more it looks as though they were murdered by our government, who used it as an excuse to murder other people thousands of miles away.

If you ridicule others who have sincere doubts and who know factual information that directly contradicts the official report and who want explanations from those who hold the keys to our government, and have motive, means, and opportunity to pull off a 9/11, but you are too lazy or fearful, or ... to check into the facts yourself, what does that make you? Scholars for 9/11 truth have developed reams of scientific data. Michael Ruppert published an exhaustive account of the case from the viewpoint of a trained investigator. David Ray Griffin provides a context for the unanswered or badly answered questions that should nag at anyone who pretends to love this country.

Are you afraid that you will learn the truth and you can't handle it? ...

Do a little research. Google is a wonderful tool.

What does it all add up to? The Commission was, as was the Warren Commission before it, a dog and pony show ... "

[glenn kangiser]

Preaching to the choir, maybe, Dug, but as choir members get older they need to look at the words of the hymn, and as new young members join the choir they also need to learn the words of the hymn, lest the true words of the hymn are lost into obscurity, and no one remembers or takes an interest in the true words in the future.

9/11 let's hope we never forget the lies that caused the deaths of our countrymen and that the true perpetrators are exposed, even if it is after their deaths just as most of the false flag ops in the past have been.  Those that wield power don't relinquish it easily.  That is the problem as they also have the power of death to possible whistle blowers.  Lots of possible informers have died over this.

http://www.baltimoregrassrootsmedia.org/files/7cc00d148ba75ba49a187cb0182ba7c2-98.html

http://dead911whistleblowers.blogspot.com/2010/03/dead-911-whistleblowers.html  Partial Name list

http://digg.com/news/world_news/9_11_Whistleblower_Poisoned_Dies

That is for starters - much more if anyone cares to look.

[Pox Eclipse]

There are hundreds of eyewitnesses to the plane that hit the Pentagon.  It is just silly to insist it was not hit by a commercial airliner.

[dug]

There are hundreds of eyewitnesses to the plane that hit the Pentagon.  It is just silly to insist it was not hit by a commercial airliner.

O.K., let's assume it was hit by a plane, I'm not saying it wasn't. What about this statement-

At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying.  I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757's and 767's and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.

- and the hundreds of similar ones from career pilots who have actually flown the plane in question?

[MountainDon]

 Fancy that! Eye witnesses? Who'd a thunk of that?  


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/11/bn.32.html


... don't know why I bother.....

http://criticalthrash.com/terror/identification.html

[glenn kangiser]

I'll take part of that one, Don.

Keep in mind that the media is owned by about 6 Corporations who are indebted to big government and big business and that CNN is known in many circles as the Counterfeit News Network but, continuing on to an investigation of their story...their Eyewitness....

http://bogusstory.com/conflictingwitnesses.html

One of the quoted liars in the evidence for the gov, Timmerman is caught in his lies.  Check out the debunking of the debunkers.

If we shift it closer, his detailed description in such a short time becomes impossible. Of course, he may not have noticed the poles being clipped off in the moment, but it's difficult to believe that he hadn't noticed anything 3 hours later, especially as he was specifically asked about them. And he doesn't say anything to the effect that "All the poles I can see are still standing" He denies any knowledge, strongly implying that all relevant poles are hidden from his view. If they are, then he can't have seen the crash.

This is the statement which seals the fate of this account.

"That may have happened behind the apartments that occluded my view"

Note the use of the past tense. They occluded my view but they don't anymore. The complex analysis has been done. Now lets look at it very simply and succinctly. From his apartment, Timmerman looks north east, possibly close to due east to the helipad. According to most of the interview, he has a clear view of the west wall. The plane allegedly flew north east or possibly almost due east towards the helipad from an area very close to Timmerman's apartment. So what was in the background of Timmerman's sight as the plane flew from the Navy Annex to the helipad? The west wall of the pentagon of course. Apparently not. A block of apartments which isn't normally there miraculously sprang up and occluded his view, but had disappeared again by the time of the interview.

This account is impossible to believe.

Once again it is necessary to dig into the official lies and their backup stories.  The veil gets very thin upon critical examination.

[ScottA]

More distractions. It doesn't matter what hit the pentagon. What matters is who caused it. I'm sorry if I have a hard time beliving the most advanced military on the planet had no clue when the capital of the country was under attack. If it was that easy someone would have done it a long time ago. Someone told air defence to stand down. That's the only answer that makes any sense.

Back when all this happened G.W. said that no one ever expected something like this to happen so they just wheren't prepared for it. Later it was reported on the TV news that they where running a drill that same day for this exact thing. So who's lying? You expect me to belive the president was not informed of the drill?

[Pox Eclipse]

There are hundreds of eyewitnesses to the plane that hit the Pentagon.  It is just silly to insist it was not hit by a commercial airliner.

O.K., let's assume it was hit by a plane, I'm not saying it wasn't. What about this statement-

At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying.  I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757's and 767's and could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.

- and the hundreds of similar ones from career pilots who have actually flown the plane in question?

We can conclude that these career pilots were not eyewitnesses.

[dug]

We can conclude that these career pilots were not eyewitnesses.

Apparently the speed and flight path of the aircrafts are well known, and the pilots do not have to witness the flight to know what maneuvers would have been necessary to make that run.

Again, the dispute is not of the eye witnesses but of who, or what was controlling whatever aircraft(s) involved. A beginner pilot who trained on a Cessna? Most experts think not.

[Shawn B]

There are hundreds of eyewitnesses to the plane that hit the Pentagon.  It is just silly to insist it was not hit by a commercial airliner.

What's even more silly is here we have the icon of the U.S. gov't defense establishment and there is only one very poor quality tape released, which shows something streaking across the lawn of the Pentagon. Nowhere in the video is a plane clearly visible. In fact the object is either moving way to fast to be videoed or the video has been doctored. The Pentagon has numerous camera's attached to it and external of it and there is not one decent image  Also after it became apparent that the attacks at the World Trader Center was the result of terrorist, (official story feed to sheeple), why wasn't the air defense system for the Pentagon activated? Never mind the National Air Defense and Strategic Air Command?

Fancy that! Eye witnesses? Who'd a thunk of that? 

If we are going to believe and use eyewitnesses as reliable sources then there are many, many people who reported hearing bombs going off at WTC 1 and 2. Numerous firemen reported the same thing and even reported that the lobby of the towers had been wiped out by explosives after witnessing numerous mangled and dead bodies and building destruction. Alex Rodriguez the famous janitor who helped people out of the towers, also reports massive explosions and strange noises from the sub-levels of the twin towers. These explosions where so powerful that it  sent people and furniture flying, even though they were many floors above the explosions. Initial reports of that morning reported that it was a Cessna or small business jet that hit the towers because of fog. Now we all know from the pictures of that day that there was no fog and in fact weather wise it was a bluebird day. Also firsthand eye witness reports said that the Pentagon had collapsed, when only a small section of one wall collapsed. Much misdirection began that morning and continues.

... don't know why I bother.....

Because you can't wrap your mind around the idea that *your* government could be involved in a plan that resulted in the initial deaths of a few thousand of it's own citizens. Then used it's citizen's sense of false patriotism to murder  hundred of thousands of Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghani's, not to mention sacrifice thousands of it's own troops, spend trillions of dollars on military equipment and nation building while setting up many military bases in the middle east and central Asia.

[Pox Eclipse]

The willingness to leap from "could be" to "must be" demonstrates a credulity that I find distressing.  Some people insist that when they hear hoofbeats, it must be zebras.  I have higher standards of proof before I surrender my power of reason.